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Somehow these arguments about cultural appropriation only ever go one way. I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners ad

Somehow these arguments about cultural appropriation only ever go one way. I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners adopt -- and benefit from -- various Western schools of thought. I've never felt the urge to gate-keep, say, the germ theory of disease from non-Westerners. What right do I have to do that? What right does the author have to gate-keep Buddhism? Why do people do this? Is it insecurity?

lurquer 4y ago
> I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners adopt -- and benefit from -- various Western schools of thought. They call it colonization. White liberals prefer nonwhites to be quaint, uneducated, and poor.
- Shared404 4y ago
  > White liberals prefer nonwhites to be quaint, uneducated, and poor. I feel like this deserves a response. I am going to try to avoid veering into flame war territory, if I fail feel free to downvote/flag. Also, I'm currently on mobile. I'll try my best on formatting and spelling, but no promises. Ok, on to the response. I am a white liberal. What you have listed is the last thing I want - what I want is to ensure we continue to maintain a functioning democracy, ensure that social mobility is possible for the largest number of people possible, help as many people as possible become educated, and ensure companies do not gain too much power. Verbiage like you just used is very comparable to verbiage like ACAB and "All republicans are fascist".
- EricDeb 4y ago
  No white liberals want nonwhites to be successful and educated... as long as it doesn't affect their pocketbooks
standardUser 4y ago
There's about 500 years of history that thoroughly explain why it is not considered appropriation when non-Western people adopt Western practices. Lots of things only "go one way" when we are dealing with massive power imbalances.
- thisiscorrect 4y ago
  This is a really vague answer. Can you elaborate? What happened 500 years ago that explains why the authors are right in their attempt to ban certain ethnic groups from certain ideas?
  - standardUser 4y ago
    The West violently occupied most of the non-Western world and forced its culture on to those peoples.
    - messe 4y ago
      So, if I'm from a western country that was occupied, colonised and had a foreign culture forced upon it, it would not be considered appropriation if I were to adopt non-western schools of thought?
      - standardUser 4y ago
        If that hypothetical makes you happy, sure. But I think most people can easily tell the difference between the widespread colonization that occurred for hundreds of years and whatever historical anomalies you have in mind with that leading question.
        messe 4y ago
        > But I think most people can easily tell the difference between the widespread colonization that occurred for hundreds of years and whatever historical anomalies you have in mind with that leading question. I was referring to Ireland, whose colonisation[1][2] during the 16th and 17th centuries served almost as a prototype for future British expansion. Gaelic culture was nearly wiped out due to British policies, and even to this day, Irish is a severely endangered language. It remains the one of the few regions in Europe with a lower population in the present than it had in 1800. But sure, let's call it a historical anomaly. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Irelan...
gedy 4y ago
An ironic one seen was a black person stopping and scolding a white person for wearing dreadlocks as some sort of cultural theft, but she herself was wearing a Scottish weave sweater and speaking English.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Are you describing a kid living in the UK/US wearing their school uniform scolding an adult wearing dreadlocks ?
  - gedy 4y ago
    No was SFSU: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlQ4H0Kdg8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlQ4H0Kdg8
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      hmm...I was expecting a different context, but isn't it a bit tough to flag speaking English in a US university as appropriation ? Worse case scenario, her ancestry didn't chose to come to the US... Was also expecting something way more Scottish from your description, when it's basically a uni-color classic cut orange sweater. PS: also yes, what a jerky way to come at people.
makeitdouble 4y ago
On going the other way, there is/was quite a reaction on China half-ripping off Disney (!) characters in regional parks or goods. I'd argue China making "knock-off"s or "stealing our IP" is pretty close to that as well. Then, it's pretty hard to culturally appropriate Christianity when it's setup with a doctrine of expansion and push to fit everywhere it can. That was basically the premise of colonialism in the early days. Same way we wouldn't be crying rivers because Asians countries embraced Coca Cola. > germ theory of disease Hasn't that been a two-way street for basically the beginning of times ? The Silk Road was as much about exchanging theories and culture than exchanging goods. There's no discussion the very base of our own culture and science is heavily influenced by the early advancement of eastern countries.
- thisiscorrect 4y ago
  > there is/was quite a reaction on China half-ripping off Disney (!) characters in regional parks or goods. I'd argue China making "knock-off"s or "stealing our IP" is pretty close to that as well. Companies trying to make trademark, patent and copyright claims seems like an entirely different matter from people complaining about cultural appropriation. The former is typically by people who may have a legal basis for claiming ownership over an idea (the merits of which is a different conversation, in my opinion). I don't get the sense that the article's author is attempting to make a copyright claim on Buddhism here. This is just ethnic turf staking.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    The reaction we were seeing about China knocking off US IP wasn't all from corporations though. It was, and still is, a pretty popular sentiment I think. On the article itself, I went through most of it, but have a very hard time being emotional about corporate culture getting crossed with institutional religious entities. I see both as kinda toxic, and if they can spend some time fighting each other we might actually get a break for once.
lilactown 4y ago
The germ theory of disease is sprang up in many places of the world throughout history. Setting that aside, cultural appropriation is something that just happens; it's not a moral good or bad, despite the way that it often gets talked about in culture war rants. It's an emergent phenomenon of different cultures mingling. There are negative aspects of appropriation, such as decontextualizing something to the point of erasing its original meaning, or using it as window dressing to be "exotic," or to make fun of people. These things can feel especially crass to people when they're present in a system that denigrates or oppresses the people that they are appropriating those things from. I can't speak for everyone, but to me it makes sense that the issue people have against appropriation of sacred customs or ornamentation of some cultures is that it seems disrespectful to the people who hold it sacred. I'm not even sure that's what the original article is saying, though.
klyrs 4y ago
> I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners adopt -- and benefit from -- various Western schools of thought. To be fair, until very recently in history, failure to convert to Christianity and assimilate into the colonial culture was illegal and practicing one's native culture or even speaking the language could get one killed. On the other hand, one could only assimilate so far before the pitchforks came out. Contrast that to today where if you transgress a cultural boundary, somebody might exercise their free speech in your general direction. It is a pretty one-way thing, but us white westerners aren't being oppressed.
- _hcuq 4y ago
  We are not being oppressed, but we are being irritated a lot. And a lot of us (not me) are voting for Trump, Le Pen, AfD etc. So the overall effect of “Race Grievance Theory” is quite counterproductive.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

lurquer 4y ago

> I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners adopt -- and benefit from -- various Western schools of thought. They call it colonization. White liberals prefer nonwhites to be quaint, uneducated, and poor.

Shared404 4y ago
> White liberals prefer nonwhites to be quaint, uneducated, and poor. I feel like this deserves a response. I am going to try to avoid veering into flame war territory, if I fail feel free to downvote/flag. Also, I'm currently on mobile. I'll try my best on formatting and spelling, but no promises. Ok, on to the response. I am a white liberal. What you have listed is the last thing I want - what I want is to ensure we continue to maintain a functioning democracy, ensure that social mobility is possible for the largest number of people possible, help as many people as possible become educated, and ensure companies do not gain too much power. Verbiage like you just used is very comparable to verbiage like ACAB and "All republicans are fascist".
EricDeb 4y ago
No white liberals want nonwhites to be successful and educated... as long as it doesn't affect their pocketbooks

standardUser 4y ago

There's about 500 years of history that thoroughly explain why it is not considered appropriation when non-Western people adopt Western practices. Lots of things only "go one way" when we are dealing with massive power imbalances.

thisiscorrect 4y ago
This is a really vague answer. Can you elaborate? What happened 500 years ago that explains why the authors are right in their attempt to ban certain ethnic groups from certain ideas?
- standardUser 4y ago
  The West violently occupied most of the non-Western world and forced its culture on to those peoples.
  - messe 4y ago
    So, if I'm from a western country that was occupied, colonised and had a foreign culture forced upon it, it would not be considered appropriation if I were to adopt non-western schools of thought?
    - standardUser 4y ago
      If that hypothetical makes you happy, sure. But I think most people can easily tell the difference between the widespread colonization that occurred for hundreds of years and whatever historical anomalies you have in mind with that leading question.
      - messe 4y ago
        > But I think most people can easily tell the difference between the widespread colonization that occurred for hundreds of years and whatever historical anomalies you have in mind with that leading question. I was referring to Ireland, whose colonisation[1][2] during the 16th and 17th centuries served almost as a prototype for future British expansion. Gaelic culture was nearly wiped out due to British policies, and even to this day, Irish is a severely endangered language. It remains the one of the few regions in Europe with a lower population in the present than it had in 1800. But sure, let's call it a historical anomaly. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Irelan...

gedy 4y ago

An ironic one seen was a black person stopping and scolding a white person for wearing dreadlocks as some sort of cultural theft, but she herself was wearing a Scottish weave sweater and speaking English.

makeitdouble 4y ago
Are you describing a kid living in the UK/US wearing their school uniform scolding an adult wearing dreadlocks ?
- gedy 4y ago
  No was SFSU: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlQ4H0Kdg8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlQ4H0Kdg8
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    hmm...I was expecting a different context, but isn't it a bit tough to flag speaking English in a US university as appropriation ? Worse case scenario, her ancestry didn't chose to come to the US... Was also expecting something way more Scottish from your description, when it's basically a uni-color classic cut orange sweater. PS: also yes, what a jerky way to come at people.

makeitdouble 4y ago

On going the other way, there is/was quite a reaction on China half-ripping off Disney (!) characters in regional parks or goods. I'd argue China making "knock-off"s or "stealing our IP" is pretty close to that as well. Then, it's pretty hard to culturally appropriate Christianity when it's setup with a doctrine of expansion and push to fit everywhere it can. That was basically the premise of colonialism in the early days. Same way we wouldn't be crying rivers because Asians countries embraced Coca Cola. > germ theory of disease Hasn't that been a two-way street for basically the beginning of times ? The Silk Road was as much about exchanging theories and culture than exchanging goods. There's no discussion the very base of our own culture and science is heavily influenced by the early advancement of eastern countries.

thisiscorrect 4y ago
> there is/was quite a reaction on China half-ripping off Disney (!) characters in regional parks or goods. I'd argue China making "knock-off"s or "stealing our IP" is pretty close to that as well. Companies trying to make trademark, patent and copyright claims seems like an entirely different matter from people complaining about cultural appropriation. The former is typically by people who may have a legal basis for claiming ownership over an idea (the merits of which is a different conversation, in my opinion). I don't get the sense that the article's author is attempting to make a copyright claim on Buddhism here. This is just ethnic turf staking.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  The reaction we were seeing about China knocking off US IP wasn't all from corporations though. It was, and still is, a pretty popular sentiment I think. On the article itself, I went through most of it, but have a very hard time being emotional about corporate culture getting crossed with institutional religious entities. I see both as kinda toxic, and if they can spend some time fighting each other we might actually get a break for once.

lilactown 4y ago

The germ theory of disease is sprang up in many places of the world throughout history. Setting that aside, cultural appropriation is something that just happens; it's not a moral good or bad, despite the way that it often gets talked about in culture war rants. It's an emergent phenomenon of different cultures mingling. There are negative aspects of appropriation, such as decontextualizing something to the point of erasing its original meaning, or using it as window dressing to be "exotic," or to make fun of people. These things can feel especially crass to people when they're present in a system that denigrates or oppresses the people that they are appropriating those things from. I can't speak for everyone, but to me it makes sense that the issue people have against appropriation of sacred customs or ornamentation of some cultures is that it seems disrespectful to the people who hold it sacred. I'm not even sure that's what the original article is saying, though.

klyrs 4y ago

> I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners adopt -- and benefit from -- various Western schools of thought. To be fair, until very recently in history, failure to convert to Christianity and assimilate into the colonial culture was illegal and practicing one's native culture or even speaking the language could get one killed. On the other hand, one could only assimilate so far before the pitchforks came out. Contrast that to today where if you transgress a cultural boundary, somebody might exercise their free speech in your general direction. It is a pretty one-way thing, but us white westerners aren't being oppressed.

_hcuq 4y ago
We are not being oppressed, but we are being irritated a lot. And a lot of us (not me) are voting for Trump, Le Pen, AfD etc. So the overall effect of “Race Grievance Theory” is quite counterproductive.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]