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Auto manufacturer family tree: Who owns what?
- sharikous 4y agoFerrari is listed as independent (rightly,) but it is owned in a big part by the Agnelli family (Exor) who own also a big part of Stellantis. No employee in the Ferrari factory has a non-Stellantis car (Alfa Romeo or Maserati preferably) So I think it should be clarified that Ferrari and Stellantis (specifically Fiat) are related
- jeroen 4y agoExor (the Agnelli's) owns 14.35% of Stellantis and 22.91% of Ferrari.
- voiper1 4y agoRelated ... 10 companies control the food industry: https://www.businessinsider.com/10-companies-control-the-food-industry-2016-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/10-companies-control-the-foo... https://archive.is/7eOPd https://archive.is/7eOPd
- amelius 4y agoRelated ... the top 1% of people control 90% of wealth
- rgrieselhuber 4y agoRelated...six companies that control the media: https://www.webfx.com/blog/internet/the-6-companies-that-own-almost-all-media-infographic/ https://www.webfx.com/blog/internet/the-6-companies-that-own...
- whalesalad 4y agoStellantis is a monster.
- arlcode 4y agoStellantis and VW were pretty much tied in 2021.
- gsnedders 4y agohttps://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-manufacturer.html https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-manufacture... places Stellantis with 30% lower production than VW in 2021. But the thing that's super stark is how many marquees Stellantis have; I can't help but think that some consolidation and focusing of resources would be beneficial (and I'm well aware that plenty is shared already).
- lotsofpulp 4y agoStellantis is where all the brands with slipping or already low quality go, so having a lot of different brands at various price points is their thing.
- sofixa 4y agoThat's unfair. Maybe that was somewhat true to an extent for the American part of FCA, but isn't for PSA and Opel. The latter were in not great shape under GM for decades, but were turned around by PSA in a few years. Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Opel have good reputation.
- jmrm 4y agoI don't know in the last 5 years, but Opel had a lot of different faults due to cost cutting measures, and depending of the model and the year of the different Peugeot and Citroën, it has or not lot of problems. One one hand, we have the examples of those models that had the infamous FAP HDi 110 hp engine that gives a lot of problems, and Citroën's "Hydractive" (hydropneumatic) suspension was discarded due to the many problems they gave. We had a 1st gen Citroën C5, that had those two, and it needed to visit the garage every every 2 year to have some pretty costly repairs. Also, some of their newer cars with AdBlue have factory design problems in this system, and repairing that module is knowing that is gonna be relatively expensive and it's gone to fail in the future. On the other hand, we had models like the Xsara, the 206, the 406, the C15, the Partner/Berlingo combo, and many others that were very reliable cars that rarely had problems.
- lizardactivist 4y agoIt's too bad that Saab is gone.
- iancmceachern 4y agoThis misses the stake Toyota has in Subaru
- 3D30497420 4y agoPage seems down? Here's the Google Cache: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BWE--RvF0TkJ:https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/car-manufacturer-brands-family-tree https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BWE--R...
- xnx 4y agoThis is great. If I was more motivated, I'd look up some sales data and make a treemap to represent the relative size of these brands.
- neogodless 4y agoI've seen something like this in Car & Driver print magazine, circa September 2017 or so. (Memory could be off on time and which publication..)
- netfl0 4y agoI did not know TATA owns Land Rover and Jaguar!
- PinguTS 4y agoThat's when Ford hat its problems in the 2008 crisis and sold off its then so-called Ford Premium Group that consisted of Volvo and Jaguar.
- gpderetta 4y agoThat's after it bought DeLorean for their time machine business I assume. edit: "after it will have brought" I guess
- PinguTS 4y agoSorry, wrong key pressed. Thanks. Fixed it.
- gpderetta 4y agoNooo now my comment is not funny anymore :)
- neogodless 4y agoIf your forum has a working "edit" button, you can revise history in your favor...
- mabbo 4y agoInterestingly, TCS (Tata Consultancy Services) which many people on HN would recognize, is a publicly traded company- yet something like 70% of it's shares are owned by Tata Group, and it's a massive part of their income.
- 2143 4y ago> it's a massive part of their income I'm pretty sure the income is massive, but it might not be where the majority of the money comes from. Tata is a huge conglomerate with businesses that apparently have nothing to do with each other. Steel, Salt, coffee/tea, hotel chains, multiple airlines, IT, car companies, watches, financial companies, phone companies (?), jewellery, air conditioners, the list goes on. (Whether any of their products are good is a different matter; it may or may not be — I don't really know.) Tata motors in India has been pretty good over the last few years. They now make very desirable products designed for the Indian market — ie., spacious, efficient, practical cars with good enough performance, reliability, high scores in GNCAP crash tests, at a price which a lot of Indians can afford. Tata cars probably won't win any races, but they have finally figured out the pulse of the Indian market.
- gennarro 4y agoAnyone interested in this should dive into the NHTSA data. Something like “make by manufacturer” explains this quite nicely, albeit without the history that the article nicely explained. Example: https://transportation.report/manufacturer/976/ https://transportation.report/manufacturer/976/
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Markoff 4y agoWow, I don't follow car news recently, so just now discovered Peugeot, Citroen, Fiat and Opel have same owner now (Stellantis), still can't comprehened how could be such merger approved by regulators. Also was aware that Nissan and Renault cooperate, but didn't know there is also Mitshubishi with them. Btw. Adobe Acrobat logo would like to have a word.
- consp 4y agoWhile being not even the biggest in total number of sales (wikipedia says fifth). I still find it strange that it's a Dutch company (and Fiat Chrystler before it), since the Netherlands has no local-origin car manufacturer since DAF-Cars was sold to Volvo in the '70.
- franch 4y agoThe reason for being a Dutch company is purely for a taxation advantage, and it goes back to the fact that FIAT/FCA moved its headquarters to the Netherlands under Marchionne's leadership. Other italian companies (Mediaset owned by Berlusconi Family) did this too recently: ( https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2021/09/18/mediaset-la-sede-legale-trasloca-in-olanda-e-la-societa-cambia-nome-perfezionato-laccordo/6324797/ https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2021/09/18/mediaset-la-sede... )
- wlecometo 4y agono it was not taxation but legal reasons. as it takes years in italy to get a decision from judges.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gpderetta 4y agoI think Netherlands is just a convenient place for European multinationals to incorporate. ST Micro, another Italo-French company is incorporated there for example.
- fredsmith219 4y agoIt would be interesting to see this for auto component companies. For example AC Delco used to be owned by GM, then was spun off as part of Delphi, which changed its name to Aptiv.
- smohnot 4y agoWritten from a Australian perspective & is missing some US marques, like that Honda owns Acura and Ford owns Lincoln
- SomeHacker44 4y agoAcura is mentioned in the accompanying text.
- smohnot 4y agoyeah, I mean it isn't shown on a slide... if Lexus & Genesis are shown, Acura & Lincoln probably should be too
- ZWoz 4y agoI found Škoda description lacking. Being one of few historic Czech car manufacturers is mention worthy.
- belval 4y agoI always wanted something like this but for all companies. I feel like it would be a great tool to help people understand how giant conglomerates are actually a big part of what we consume. My favorite are outdoor clothing companies which almost all tie-in to the same Chinese investment fund. Or how glasses companies all belong to that one French conglomerate.
- oboes 4y agoThe French newspaper "Le Monde diplomatique" made a very interesting family tree for media ownership in France: https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cartes/PPA https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cartes/PPA
- rcMgD2BwE72F 4y agoPublished on Github too https://github.com/mdiplo/Medias_francais https://github.com/mdiplo/Medias_francais
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- pr0zac 4y agoWhich brands are you talking about and could you point to something showing the ownership (not doubting you, just wondering). Looking up Patagonia, Columbia, and VF Corp (North Face, Timberland, etc) none of them appear to be Chinese owned, but its quite likely their Wikipedia page is missing info.
- Green_man 4y agoI know anta sports (Chinese) owns Arc'teryx and Salomon (and other brands as well), which are both big deals in very niche parts of outdoors companies (mountaineering/climbing and trail running/skiing respectively) but I don't think there's any single Chinese company that owns all the outdoor brands, unless anta is owned by some other company. Luxottica, the eyeglass company gp referred to is also Italian, not French (afaik), and their stranglehold was weakening with online retailers breaking in (last I checked was ~5 years ago, this might have regressed since).
- SomeHacker44 4y agoTesla is mistakenly listed as having been founded by Elon Musk. (See e.g. Wikipedia for accurate information.)
- FuriouslyAdrift 4y agoHe's LEGALLY a founder (as per the lawsuit)... but I get your meaning.
- kergonath 4y agoHe can call himself however he wants (he’s also completely unqualified to be called an engineer), but money cannot buy facts.
- asciiresort 4y ago> he’s also completely unqualified to be called an engineer What qualifies someone as an engineer? Math? What kind of math? Building stuff? What kind of stuff? Writing code? What languages count and what languages don’t? Does CSS count? Or are you talking about some kind of academic certification or standardized exam? It seems like you are basing someone’s engineering prowess based on their personal, social, political antics.
- kergonath 4y ago> What qualifies someone as an engineer? Depends on the country. In some, it's a certification that comes with responsibilities, in others it's just a job. In any case: 1) he hasn't got anything that comes close to an engineering qualification (no, dropping off a Ph.D. after a a B.Sc. is not enough); 2) his job does not involve anything like an engineer's job, which is to "invent, design, analyze, build and test machines, complex systems, structures, gadgets and materials to fulfill functional objectives and requirements while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, regulation, safety and cost." [1] He is very good at ordering people around, but there is no evidence that he did any of this at any point (though there is a lot of evidence that he got some underlings to do the boring work for him). Again, dumping a pile of money on someone to do it is not the same thing. I can respect that he did take some risks with his investments. Even if you have an axe to grind and are frustrated by some people not considering software engineering as "proper engineering" (which is how I read your post, though Musk certainly is not a software engineer either), writing CSS for a living is closer to engineering than what Musk is doing. [1] e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer
- stewx 4y agoWow, somehow I was unaware that Hyundai now owns the majority of Kia.
- kube-system 4y agoYou ever notice how similar their models are? Nearly all of their line ups are clones with different trim.
- lightsandaounds 4y agoThey don't the majority. Hyundai owns 1/3 of Kia and Kia actually is a partial owner in several Hyundai subsidiaries.
- stewx 4y agoI stand corrected: they owned 51% back in 1998 but more like a third now.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- FuriouslyAdrift 4y agoAh yes.. Chaebol's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaebol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaebol
- skhr0680 4y agoIt’s not mentioned in the article, but Toyota owns 20% of Subaru
- csours 4y agoDisclosure: I work for GM. Anything here is solely my own opinion or experience. Fun fact: Chevrolet kind of bought GM. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-buys-chevrolet https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-buys-chevrole... > "Still the owner of a considerable portion of GM stock, Durant began to purchase more shares in the company as his profits from Chevrolet allowed. In a final move to regain control, Durant offered GM stockholders five shares of Chevrolet stock for every one share of GM stock. Though GM stock prices were exorbitantly high, the market interest in Chevrolet made the five-for-one trade irresistible to GM shareholders. With the sale, concluded on May 2, 1918, Durant regained control of GM" And then after this the DuPont Family effectively controlled GM for quite a while. They previously had a relationship because GM used DuPont paints. ---- As to the manufacturer family tree: things get significantly more complicated when you add joint ventures. Ford famously partnered with Mazda, Chrysler partnered with Mitsubishi, and GM partnered with Isuzu and Suzuki and even Toyota for a while (NUMMI). Nowadays GM and Honda have a few codevelopment projects; even the concept of what a joint venture means has significantly changed. My list is this comment is far from authoritative or exhaustive.
- RajT88 4y ago> Chrysler partnered with Mitsubishi The epic "Diamondstar Motors" as I recall. Responsible for generations of kickass cars under different names. Conquest/Starion, Laser/Talon/Eclipse, Stealth/3000GT.
- flyinghamster 4y agoIn addition, Chrysler had captive imports from Mitsubishi at least as far back as the 1971 Dodge Colt. The GM/Isuzu and Ford/Mazda relationships went back to the 1970s as well.
- SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago> As to the manufacturer family tree: things get significantly more complicated when you add joint ventures. Yes, and even more complicated because some of those joint ventures where country-specific. For example, in the 80s (and early 90s) due to the economic crisis in Brazil and Argentina, Ford and Volkswagen created the joint venture Autolatina to join forces during the crisis. So both brands shared engines and released sight variations of the same cars.
- sgt 4y agoEven though Volkswagen (VW) owns cars like Porsche and others, it should be mentioned that Porsche SE controls and owns majority in VW.
- rurban 4y agoExactly. As it is labelled as owner tree, Porsche (the Porsche and Piesch families) owns VW and all its subsidiaries, esp. Audi. But technically Audi owns the whole group. VW doesn't plan and design the engines, gearboxes and cars, Audi does. VW is more a logistics and SW company now, just with a big brand name, with the cheaper "Audis" labelled as VW.
- Gravityloss 4y agoPorsche designed the beetle (to the sketches of an Austrian painter). VW was founded for making beetles and they did that for decades. VW combined with Audi. Audi people designed the Golf that was the opposite of the beetle. It was a great success.
- sxcurry 4y agoAlso, to be more precise than the original article, Volkswagen AG is the parent company, which owns a number of brands, including Volkswagen and Audi.
- arethuza 4y agoPorsche SE is a holding company though - it doesn't directly make cars. Porsche cars are made by Porsche AG which is a subsidiary of Volkswagen AG - Porsche SE then holding a controlling stake in Volkswagen AG.
- sgt 4y agoCorrect, but they do pull the strings (the Porsche family).
- photochemsyn 4y agoIt'd be interesting to see this expanded into the secondary supply chains, and the primary factories, all of which may or may not be owned by the car corporations themselves. These networks sprawl out pretty quickly, I imagine. Modern cars rely on microcontrollers and microprocessors, and without chip fabs that comes to a halt. They also require varying amounts of steel, aluminum, carbon fiber, other plastics and metals, and natural rubber. Then there's the physical locations and the international ownership / leasing / agreement structures. For example, Rust Belt manufacturing of vehicles in the USA for the US market has mostly relocated to Mexico: https://napsintl.com/mexico-manufacturing-news/mexicos-auto-industry/ https://napsintl.com/mexico-manufacturing-news/mexicos-auto-... > "According to Forbes, about 80 percent of the cars manufactured in Mexico are exported globally, with about two-thirds of those exports going to the United States. In 2014, the industry comprised about $19 billion in investments. Production for that year was estimated to reach 3.2 million cars, double what it had been five years prior." A network map of everything that went into a Mexican-made vehicle that was purchased in the USA would be highly complex, and if you then asked for an ownership map of all the shell companies, holding compenies, investors, primary owners etc. involved, the complexity would likely increase by a factor of ten. Just tracking the global production and ownership of raw lithium and electric car battery manufacturing, for example, would be a fairly massive undertaking.
- fibers 4y agobuilding out a massive BOM for all platforms would be next to impossible because it would require forcing OEMs to disclose their contracts with Tier 1 suppliers. I totally agree with you becasue that would be such a cool thing to do
- adolph 4y agoWhile "ownership" is often interpreted in terms of value-flows and control, the model of Ikea's corporate structure indicates that actually modeling value-flows and control would be more helpful than using "ownership" as a proxy. IKEA’s organizational structure might sound a bit confusing at first, but I looked into it to see how its business model works so that you could gain clarity on that. Put it shortly, IKEA as a brand comprises two separate owners. INGKA Holding B.V. owns the IKEA Group, the holding the group. At the same time that is held by the Stichting INGKA Foundation, which is the owner of the whole Group. IKEA Group is not the owner of the brand, which is managed by Inter IKEA Systems B.V., part of Inter IKEA B.V. that is the real owner of the IKEA Concept. Thus, IKEA Group is a franchisee that pays 3% of royalties to Inter IKEA Systems. https://fourweekmba.com/who-owns-ikea/ https://fourweekmba.com/who-owns-ikea/
- option 4y agoBefore buying any Volvo or Polestar consider that those are owned by China.
- PraetorianGourd 4y agoAlmost without a doubt, so is the company that made the device you are typing on. Likewise, the chair you are sitting on. If you are standing, there is a good chance one of the articles of clothing on you are "owned by China". If you are driving today, a vast majority of the parts in your car were made in China by Chinese companies. The brakes that you depend on were made in China, as were the spark plugs which ignite the fuel (most likely not domestic) that is transferred through the gears (of Chinese origin). The energy moving the Chinese made differential being transferred to the axels and eventually the tires, made in China, to the road, perhaps financed via Chinese loans. But yeah, buying a Volvo is what keeps the CCP in power.
- option 4y agosilly “all or nothing” dichotomy. it is, gradual, consistent efforts that change status quo
- sorenjan 4y agoI only skimmed trough it, but the section about Polestar is wrong. It says that their racing division was renamed Lynk & Co. Lynk & Co is a different car brand focusing on a subscription sales model. Polestar's racing division was renamed Cyan Racing. Polestar is also partly owned by Geely, which of course also owns Volvo which owns part of Polestar... Geely recently bought the mobile phone manufacturer Meizu.
- ComputerCat 4y agoVery cool, thanks for sharing
- dpedu 4y ago> Tesla – Founded 2003 > It was founded by former PayPal owner Elon Musk Hah. Nope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Founding_(2003%E2%80%932004) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Founding_(2003%E2%...
- tsomctl 4y ago> A lawsuit settlement agreed to by Eberhard and Tesla in September 2009 allows all five – Eberhard, Tarpenning, Wright, Musk, and Straubel – to call themselves co-founders. Granted, he wasn't there to sign the articles of incorporation, but he joined very early.
- mc32 4y agoStellantis is like the new Step parent to a bunch of step children that were given up for adoption by their biological parents. Some premier brands but also a lot of second tier brands and smaller brands overall. I wonder if they can keep so many brands afloat. Over the last 20 years or so the larger MFGs have shed brands and consolidated.
- dchest 4y agoThey mostly keep releasing the same car under different brands, so the cost for brand differentiation with respect to actual car production is pretty much the same as if it was a single brand. They even add non-Stellantis brands to it, e.g. Toyota (for example, see their European range of small, medium and large vans).
- legitster 4y agoInteresting fun fact - the Japanese sub-brands were mostly created to get around US import restrictions. At the time, the US had super imposing quantity limitations on Japanese cars. So the workaround was the companies spun off luxury companies (Lexus, Acura, Infiniti) so they could sell fewer cars at a higher markup.
- glowingly 4y agoAcura launched first, since Honda already had a factory in the US (originally for motorcycles). Honda was still smaller than Mitsubishi, Nissan, and Toyota at the time, iirc. That factory is still the oldest operating, US factory from a foreign automaker. Amusingly, the import restrictions were "voluntary," as much as geopolitics can be voluntary.
- CSMastermind 4y agoI know that Ford takes a lot of flak (deservingly in many cases) but I've always been very impressed by how consistently the company has seemingly been run. If I remember correctly, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I don't, they are the only one of the 'Big 3' American auto manufacturers to not need a bailout.
- bobthepanda 4y agoYes and no. Ford did not participate in the explicit bailout for the auto industry, but their financial arm did receive loans from the federal government. (GM and co. also received this type of assistance in addition to the bailout.)
- MisterTea 4y agoThere was a time when Ford owned a bunch of brands at the same time which made them quite a large car company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company#Former_marques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company#Former_marq... I was very surprised to see they were listed as stand alone in that list.
- brk 4y agoThe list seems to be Australia-centric. In the US Ford still owns the Lincoln brand as well.
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y agoFord is bipolar. On one hand some models are pure garbage. Then on the other hand their F-150 truck is incredible. Mustang and new Bronco are also loved.
- lowbloodsugar 4y agoWatch Ford vs Ferrari to get an idea of what Ford is like. Also be aware that you are not their customer. Their dealers are their customers. This is why a Shelby with an MSRP of $60k goes for $90k, while a faster $72k MSRP Camaro goes for <$70k. Ford makes limited runs so dealers can put insane markups, while GM makes cars for people to buy. (Bonus, when GT350s' rear differentials overheated on the track, Ford said "The GT350 is not a track car" - Shelby is rolling in his grave). Ford's "halo" car is $300k MSRP, GM's is $190k. Guess which one you can actually buy. I have owned three Mustangs including a GT500, and tracked them, and will never buy Ford again.
- kmlx 4y agomazda still going strong, with toyota owning just 5% of it. excellent, as their mx5/miata is a gem of car. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toyota-mazda-idUSKBN1AK0RF https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toyota-mazda-idUSKBN1AK0R... https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/mazda-continues-to-grow-market-share-in-europe/ https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/mazda-continue...
- camjohnson26 4y agoAnd a few months ago Tesla was valued more than all the brands on the list, combined. If that isn’t a sign of a stock market bubble I don’t know what is. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/tesla-valuation-more-than-nine-largest-carmakers-combined-why.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/tesla-valuation-more-than-ni...
- mulmen 4y agoWhy would that be a sign of a bubble and not simply an overvalued stock?
- jansan 4y agoAgreed, but remember that if you are thinking about betting against Tesla that the market can stay (much) longer irrational than you can stay solvent. There is a quote from the early 20th century: "Wall Street's graveyards are filled with men who were right too soon." When VW stocks went through the roof due to a short squeeze a few years ago, a very conservative German billionaire named Adolf Merckle saw that VW's stock value was ridicilously overpriced, so he decided to bet agains the stock. But the stock price went further up and stayed there long enough to make him lose all of his money. He then committed suicide.
- pmcollins 4y agoif apple were worth more than all of the other personal computer makers combined (maybe it is idk) would that also be a sign of a bubble? is that all it takes or does growth rate matter?
- saisundar 4y agoGiven the recent influx of EVs, some of these charts explain why certain brands seem to have launched them now. Hyundai, kia and Genesis for instance, share the same ev platform. Volvo and polestar too,with their EVs. Audi, Vw, Porsche too have all launched EVs with surprisingly similar specs ( especially in terms of miles/kwh). These ownership trees help explain why, clearly.
- explaingarlic 4y agoGood of Stellanis to buy/own all of the companies that my Dad told me not to buy cars from :D
- basicplus2 4y agoOne thing is for sure, ever since daimler and chrysler were joined at the hip, mercedes vehicle quality dropped like a stone.
- Markoff 4y agoBtw if you put Lexus under Toyota and Infinity under Nissan, you should also put Acura under Honda, all of these are equivalents of luxurious subbrands of mother brands.