4 ms·

Scaling a startup from a bunker: founders' story from Ukraine

277 points by Pavlyshyna 4y ago

dollyworld 4y ago
wow, thanks for sharing this
OleksK 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
DariaRud 4y ago
dhoe 4y ago
Very timely, I was just wondering the other day how you guys are doing. Can't wait to be able to justify signing up with my badly designed side project!
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  thank you! You're always welcome to try us out
svnt 4y ago
I am grateful you found stability in work but this reads like a satire. There are plenty of reasons to not grow. War is a valid one. The clearest framing of this for me is that the religion of Silicon Valley is primarily founded in avoidant behaviors and artificial restrictions on healthy behavior. I hope you all stay safe and find healing.
- starik36 4y ago
  > avoidant behaviors Disagree. I find it very helpful to be busy during stressful times. Otherwise you are just endlessly thinking about the war and incessantly checking news sources. I can't even imagine the mental pressure these folks are under.
  - Pavlyshyna 4y ago
    Thank you! We also see it this way from what we hear from folks. Eg I limited newsfeed to 2 times a day and try to be busy all other times otherwise it gets all energy away for being worried.
- AndrewUnmuted 4y ago
  - arcticfox 4y ago
    > Exploiting Ukraine in any way for business reasons like this Where are you getting this take from? The founder calling the shots seems to be Ukrainian. The entire article is about them doing everything they can to take care of their team and their country. And as for why they keep working, his account of the opinion of his female employees hiding in bunkers to reduce the chance of rape: > I asked them to rest and take care of themselves & their relatives, but they told me that work kept them mentally stable.
    - AndrewUnmuted 4y ago
      > Where are you getting this take from? The founder calling the shots seems to be Ukrainian. That's where this "take" comes from. The fact that the founder is Ukrainian, and instead of addressing the immense geopolitical complexities of the turmoil in which he & his countrymen find themselves, they exploit the pain to give benefit and PR to their technology startup. Either the situation in Ukraine is not quite as dire as the post suggests, or the founder is insane. Either way, he's a liar and a manipulative person who has their priorities backwards. Actual wars do not allow for venture capital based software firms to take hold. For fuck's sake, when the US bombed Iraq senselessly for two straight years, they managed to blow up an entire Al Jazeera location along with the hopes and dreams of all the citizenry there. There are hardly any young men anymore in that country thanks to us. Technology has not improved that much over the last two decades to make the theater of war any different today.
- dang 4y ago
  That's a generic flamewar tangent and those do not make for good HN threads at the best of times: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=generic%20discussion%20by%3Adang%20-flamewars%20-flamewar&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... This is obviously not an article about startup growth at all costs; it's the story of what's been happening to a startup in a war zone. I don't think it's in very good taste to lecture people who are going through that, let alone toss cliché internet swipes like "this reads like a satire", which are against the site guidelines anyhow. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  hi, thank you for the reply! Safe and yes, therapy helps with healing. I might understand your concern around toxic culture of "growth at all cost" as SV religion. After bootstrapping my 3 companies before, I am not a fan of it too. Hopefully, this is not the case. We were not pushing people during such heart-breaking times, on the opposite, they needed work as a distraction and spent at least 30% of work time lately on volunteering projects, eg. designing for non-profits. This gave an additional sense of purpose to being productive and stay strong.
CedarMills 4y ago
It's a great post with realities of war. Being focused on work is a great distraction as well. My issue is how do we respond to businesses who are clearly exploiting the crisis for monetary gain? It's one thing to ask for support for humanitarian aid purposes (such as fundraising to distribute food, helping someone's family get out, etc.), it's another to exploit the war to grow your business. When the war started, I had numerous cold emails from Ukrainian businesses offering services (primarily outsourced marketing, design, software engineering) with the first paragraph containing emotionally charged, guilt-tripping statements. Those emails started to cause me to have some resentment and I marked them as junk. I will not be pushed to support a business that's trying to guilt trip me, regardless of what's happening. War is bad, majority of world supports the Ukrainian side. I pray for the conflict to be over soon.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- zucker42 4y ago
  I understand why you might not like getting these emails, but is there any reason you think they're bad in some general sense (at least worse than any other email advertising). I'm sure there are some customers out there who would like to buy from Ukrainian companies given what's going on.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    I strongly suspect many are not actually Ukrainian; I recently got Facebook ads for a "Ukrainian educational toy maker" selling puzzles I'd seen on AliExpress.
- passivate 4y ago
  If you still have them, can you share those emails with names redacted?
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  hi! Thank you for the reply and what a great point. I can relate and yes, a lot of business in Ukraine are urged to switch to other markets to survive. I assume their cold outreach attempts might look naive and exploiting. I still believe that begging for help and offering some services are different, and sorry that disturbed you, really. I assume they still need to make payouts, keep workplaces and support the economy. From my perspective, begging for charity is not okay when you can bring value. Maybe I am just too optimistic about examples you mentioned.
hemloc_io 4y ago
Hey! I remember reading your previous article on HN about being bootstrapped, and I liked the fun aesthetic of your company :) Glad to hear everyone is safe, best of luck.
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  yeap, that was us :) thank you!
albertgoeswoof 4y ago
This is an amazing story and great concept/startup. I’d love to know more about the economics around the company, given that you raised 2.5M USD last year- what kind of capital costs do you incur that make the VC route a good path here? How do you plan to scale up to returns that are comparable with other YC companies? In other words, geopolitical situation aside, why not bootstrap this business or rely on debt?
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  Thank you! It's a fair question given though unit economics in businesses like ours are usually pretty healthy. As we had a bootstrap experience before and were (still are!) very lean, we considered the options you mentioned too. The point for us was not capital costs or smth, but opportunities to grow at a different scale. We see VC not as primarily funding, but as partners for the journey — source of learnings, support and network. We were mostly focused on raising from angel entrepreneurs, even current customers joined. Hopefully this answers your question.
CosmicShadow 4y ago
Really glad to hear that you guys are safe and continuing to operate. I remembered you were in Ukraine and was wondering how that affected everything! I've still got you in the back of my mind for when I need some design!
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  Thank you, I honestly appreciate!
r6ku 4y ago
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
Long time ago, I also worked for an outsourcing company in a poor country. They didn't call it a startup though.
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  I assume poor country refers to Ukraine. We have designers connected to the app from almost all continents though, including Canada, Germany, Portugal.
shashanoid 4y ago
This is crazy. Getting goosebumps from reading that blog post. It's extremely hard to imagine how you managed to pull that off. All the best & I hope you all stay safe <3
tstrimple 4y ago
I had the good fortune to be working with a Ukrainian dev team when things broke out. The first week was chaotic, but all of them were doing their best to move out of the cities and settle in villages to continue working. If my city was being bombed and I was having to relocate for safety the last thing on my mind would be writing software. I said as much to the devs, especially when they were apologetic about availability. Their response was basically "This is how we're supporting the defense efforts. Some people are picking up weapons, but we're helping by keeping money flowing into the country." That gave me a new perspective on the work they were doing and their work ethic during such crazy times. A+ would work with again.
robocat 4y ago
Background:: Early history: https://www.awesomic.io/blog/startup-journey-to-100-k https://www.awesomic.io/blog/startup-journey-to-100-k YC launch discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28199089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28199089 Their case studies: https://www.awesomic.io/case-study https://www.awesomic.io/case-study Any other super relevant links?
more_corn 4y ago
Awesome story. Please note. If you pop up a window while I’m reading to invite me to subscribe I will immediately close the window and ignore you forever. A simple link to subscribe will let me do it without interrupting me. We get to build the internet we want to experience. Don’t create a shitty experience for your readers.
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  thank you for sharing, noted ;)
ramesh31 4y ago
Absolutely love the site. Clean modern design, but with a throwback to the personal web era. Wish there was more of this.
cynicthe1st 4y ago
- brokenkebab2 4y ago
  And what makes you think so? Ukraine is neither a rich country, nor a militaristic regime, it doesn't have enough top-notch equipment. Also, the idea that someone fights "for military" is just plain stupid, sorry
santa_boy 4y ago
Thanks man. I feel so privileged to be in a safe country. How many of your 168 team-mates were in Ukraine? That a pretty big size .... Any specific experiences you/they can share on how they coped with the struggles and things that worked for them? (maybe topics for a series on survival and growth when things perhaps changed overnight)
- romasevastyanov 4y ago
  > How many of your 168 team-mates were in Ukraine? Around ~100 right now. > Any specific experiences you/they can share on how they coped with the struggles and things that worked for them? Yes! We are planning to cover another article just on this topic. Main things which we used: 1) Free 1to1 with therapists 2) Group sessions with therapists 3) Unlimited PTO 4) Financial support 5) In case a teammate is in the danger area, proactive support for evacuation 6) Real-time monitoring of the situation + updates to the team 7) "Believe in better times, and what we'll do there"
  - santa_boy 4y ago
    Great! These are wonderful initiatives on behalf of the company. Also, would be great to hear of the coping mechanisms the individuals and families involved ... that were beneficial for them in their own personal capacity and situation.

277 points by Pavlyshyna 4y ago

dollyworld 4y ago

wow, thanks for sharing this

OleksK 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

DariaRud 4y ago

dhoe 4y ago

Very timely, I was just wondering the other day how you guys are doing. Can't wait to be able to justify signing up with my badly designed side project!

Pavlyshyna 4y ago
thank you! You're always welcome to try us out

svnt 4y ago

I am grateful you found stability in work but this reads like a satire. There are plenty of reasons to not grow. War is a valid one. The clearest framing of this for me is that the religion of Silicon Valley is primarily founded in avoidant behaviors and artificial restrictions on healthy behavior. I hope you all stay safe and find healing.

starik36 4y ago
> avoidant behaviors Disagree. I find it very helpful to be busy during stressful times. Otherwise you are just endlessly thinking about the war and incessantly checking news sources. I can't even imagine the mental pressure these folks are under.
- Pavlyshyna 4y ago
  Thank you! We also see it this way from what we hear from folks. Eg I limited newsfeed to 2 times a day and try to be busy all other times otherwise it gets all energy away for being worried.
AndrewUnmuted 4y ago
- arcticfox 4y ago
  > Exploiting Ukraine in any way for business reasons like this Where are you getting this take from? The founder calling the shots seems to be Ukrainian. The entire article is about them doing everything they can to take care of their team and their country. And as for why they keep working, his account of the opinion of his female employees hiding in bunkers to reduce the chance of rape: > I asked them to rest and take care of themselves & their relatives, but they told me that work kept them mentally stable.
  - AndrewUnmuted 4y ago
    > Where are you getting this take from? The founder calling the shots seems to be Ukrainian. That's where this "take" comes from. The fact that the founder is Ukrainian, and instead of addressing the immense geopolitical complexities of the turmoil in which he & his countrymen find themselves, they exploit the pain to give benefit and PR to their technology startup. Either the situation in Ukraine is not quite as dire as the post suggests, or the founder is insane. Either way, he's a liar and a manipulative person who has their priorities backwards. Actual wars do not allow for venture capital based software firms to take hold. For fuck's sake, when the US bombed Iraq senselessly for two straight years, they managed to blow up an entire Al Jazeera location along with the hopes and dreams of all the citizenry there. There are hardly any young men anymore in that country thanks to us. Technology has not improved that much over the last two decades to make the theater of war any different today.
dang 4y ago
That's a generic flamewar tangent and those do not make for good HN threads at the best of times: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=generic%20discussion%20by%3Adang%20-flamewars%20-flamewar&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... This is obviously not an article about startup growth at all costs; it's the story of what's been happening to a startup in a war zone. I don't think it's in very good taste to lecture people who are going through that, let alone toss cliché internet swipes like "this reads like a satire", which are against the site guidelines anyhow. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Pavlyshyna 4y ago
hi, thank you for the reply! Safe and yes, therapy helps with healing. I might understand your concern around toxic culture of "growth at all cost" as SV religion. After bootstrapping my 3 companies before, I am not a fan of it too. Hopefully, this is not the case. We were not pushing people during such heart-breaking times, on the opposite, they needed work as a distraction and spent at least 30% of work time lately on volunteering projects, eg. designing for non-profits. This gave an additional sense of purpose to being productive and stay strong.

CedarMills 4y ago

It's a great post with realities of war. Being focused on work is a great distraction as well. My issue is how do we respond to businesses who are clearly exploiting the crisis for monetary gain? It's one thing to ask for support for humanitarian aid purposes (such as fundraising to distribute food, helping someone's family get out, etc.), it's another to exploit the war to grow your business. When the war started, I had numerous cold emails from Ukrainian businesses offering services (primarily outsourced marketing, design, software engineering) with the first paragraph containing emotionally charged, guilt-tripping statements. Those emails started to cause me to have some resentment and I marked them as junk. I will not be pushed to support a business that's trying to guilt trip me, regardless of what's happening. War is bad, majority of world supports the Ukrainian side. I pray for the conflict to be over soon.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zucker42 4y ago
I understand why you might not like getting these emails, but is there any reason you think they're bad in some general sense (at least worse than any other email advertising). I'm sure there are some customers out there who would like to buy from Ukrainian companies given what's going on.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  I strongly suspect many are not actually Ukrainian; I recently got Facebook ads for a "Ukrainian educational toy maker" selling puzzles I'd seen on AliExpress.
passivate 4y ago
If you still have them, can you share those emails with names redacted?
Pavlyshyna 4y ago
hi! Thank you for the reply and what a great point. I can relate and yes, a lot of business in Ukraine are urged to switch to other markets to survive. I assume their cold outreach attempts might look naive and exploiting. I still believe that begging for help and offering some services are different, and sorry that disturbed you, really. I assume they still need to make payouts, keep workplaces and support the economy. From my perspective, begging for charity is not okay when you can bring value. Maybe I am just too optimistic about examples you mentioned.

hemloc_io 4y ago

Hey! I remember reading your previous article on HN about being bootstrapped, and I liked the fun aesthetic of your company :) Glad to hear everyone is safe, best of luck.

Pavlyshyna 4y ago
yeap, that was us :) thank you!

albertgoeswoof 4y ago

This is an amazing story and great concept/startup. I’d love to know more about the economics around the company, given that you raised 2.5M USD last year- what kind of capital costs do you incur that make the VC route a good path here? How do you plan to scale up to returns that are comparable with other YC companies? In other words, geopolitical situation aside, why not bootstrap this business or rely on debt?

Pavlyshyna 4y ago
Thank you! It's a fair question given though unit economics in businesses like ours are usually pretty healthy. As we had a bootstrap experience before and were (still are!) very lean, we considered the options you mentioned too. The point for us was not capital costs or smth, but opportunities to grow at a different scale. We see VC not as primarily funding, but as partners for the journey — source of learnings, support and network. We were mostly focused on raising from angel entrepreneurs, even current customers joined. Hopefully this answers your question.

CosmicShadow 4y ago

Really glad to hear that you guys are safe and continuing to operate. I remembered you were in Ukraine and was wondering how that affected everything! I've still got you in the back of my mind for when I need some design!

Pavlyshyna 4y ago
Thank you, I honestly appreciate!

r6ku 4y ago

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago

Long time ago, I also worked for an outsourcing company in a poor country. They didn't call it a startup though.

Pavlyshyna 4y ago
I assume poor country refers to Ukraine. We have designers connected to the app from almost all continents though, including Canada, Germany, Portugal.

shashanoid 4y ago

This is crazy. Getting goosebumps from reading that blog post. It's extremely hard to imagine how you managed to pull that off. All the best & I hope you all stay safe <3

tstrimple 4y ago

I had the good fortune to be working with a Ukrainian dev team when things broke out. The first week was chaotic, but all of them were doing their best to move out of the cities and settle in villages to continue working. If my city was being bombed and I was having to relocate for safety the last thing on my mind would be writing software. I said as much to the devs, especially when they were apologetic about availability. Their response was basically "This is how we're supporting the defense efforts. Some people are picking up weapons, but we're helping by keeping money flowing into the country." That gave me a new perspective on the work they were doing and their work ethic during such crazy times. A+ would work with again.

robocat 4y ago

Background:: Early history: https://www.awesomic.io/blog/startup-journey-to-100-k https://www.awesomic.io/blog/startup-journey-to-100-k YC launch discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28199089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28199089 Their case studies: https://www.awesomic.io/case-study https://www.awesomic.io/case-study Any other super relevant links?

more_corn 4y ago

Awesome story. Please note. If you pop up a window while I’m reading to invite me to subscribe I will immediately close the window and ignore you forever. A simple link to subscribe will let me do it without interrupting me. We get to build the internet we want to experience. Don’t create a shitty experience for your readers.

Pavlyshyna 4y ago
thank you for sharing, noted ;)

ramesh31 4y ago

Absolutely love the site. Clean modern design, but with a throwback to the personal web era. Wish there was more of this.

cynicthe1st 4y ago

brokenkebab2 4y ago
And what makes you think so? Ukraine is neither a rich country, nor a militaristic regime, it doesn't have enough top-notch equipment. Also, the idea that someone fights "for military" is just plain stupid, sorry

santa_boy 4y ago

Thanks man. I feel so privileged to be in a safe country. How many of your 168 team-mates were in Ukraine? That a pretty big size .... Any specific experiences you/they can share on how they coped with the struggles and things that worked for them? (maybe topics for a series on survival and growth when things perhaps changed overnight)

romasevastyanov 4y ago
> How many of your 168 team-mates were in Ukraine? Around ~100 right now. > Any specific experiences you/they can share on how they coped with the struggles and things that worked for them? Yes! We are planning to cover another article just on this topic. Main things which we used: 1) Free 1to1 with therapists 2) Group sessions with therapists 3) Unlimited PTO 4) Financial support 5) In case a teammate is in the danger area, proactive support for evacuation 6) Real-time monitoring of the situation + updates to the team 7) "Believe in better times, and what we'll do there"
- santa_boy 4y ago
  Great! These are wonderful initiatives on behalf of the company. Also, would be great to hear of the coping mechanisms the individuals and families involved ... that were beneficial for them in their own personal capacity and situation.