8 ms·

I can't help but feel this is aimed at trans activists who protested the Chappelle special. I think he went too far at a couple places, but that's what comedian

I can't help but feel this is aimed at trans activists who protested the Chappelle special. I think he went too far at a couple places, but that's what comedians do. I don't think it's transphobic to push back on trans activists. I have problematic issues (bipolar, recovering alcoholic) but I don't go around demanding the world accommodate me and calling people who won't listen to me haters.

cato_the_elder 4y ago
- otde 4y ago
- aaomidi 4y ago
- bin_bash 4y ago
  propaganda for which side?
  - squintychino 4y ago
    Clearly it's propaganda for the non-trans majority that are not comfortable with trans people. Just like trans people came up with their 'cis people' propaganda to deal with their uncomfortableness with non-trans people. An eye for an eye makes the world blind...
    - sdenton4 4y ago
      How would you feel about your first statement of the word 'trans' were replaced with Black, gay, Catholic or really any other protected class?
      - weepit 4y ago
        There's no real comparison to any of those categories. It's more like: white people claiming to be black, straight people saying they're gay, or Muslims identifying as Catholics. Transgender is just people desiring to be what they are not, and can never be. But we're all supposed to accept their wishful thinking as truth.
- steve_taylor 4y ago
  - goosedragons 4y ago
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    Phobic has more than 1 meaning. Photophobia and hydrophobia aren't mental illnesses.
    - robonerd 4y ago
      Mental illness probably isn't the right word for it, but hydrophobia is indisputably a disease of the brain. The virus travels from the bite wound up your CNS; when it reaches your brain you die in agony.
      - pseudalopex 4y ago
        Mental illness isn't the right word for it. And hydrophobia is a symptom of a brain disease more accurately.
        robonerd 4y ago
        Hydrophobia is a common (albeit bit archaic?) name for the disease generally, inspired by the symptom.
        pseudalopex 4y ago
        That definition is more than a bit archaic.
nautilius 4y ago
Not sure what that steep price is you would pay to 'accommodate' trans people? It requires nothing on your part except for acknowledging and respecting their existence.
- h3cate 4y ago
  Where did they say they weren't acknowledging or accomodating trans people? Original comment clearly acknowledges trans people exist?
  - nautilius 4y ago
    OP very clearly writes that they "don't think it's transphobic to push back on trans activists" who, unlike him, "demand the world accommodate". Again, the only 'accommodation' that is asked is to just let them live. Seems like not a hard thing to do, and not something one would have to go out of their way of to 'push back against'. If you don't like the thought of buttfucking, don't. If you don't like the thought of people who identify differently from their biological sex, don't. If you don't like the thought of eating kale, don't. It's simple, it costs you nothing. Nothing at all.
    - PolygonSheep 4y ago
      > Again, the only 'accommodation' that is asked is to just let them live. Seems like not a hard thing to do, and not something one would have to go out of their way of to 'push back against'. But OP is letting them live. Unless you are alleging OP is running around killing trans people??
      - nautilius 4y ago
        OP is making no statement about what they do, only that they find it reasonable to push back against that simple wish of the trans community.
        grrraal 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dehrmann 4y ago
It's also a reaction to the Spotify Joe Rogan drama.
jancsika 4y ago
- okareaman 4y ago
  I solidly mean #1. I hate that Facebook and others started advertising hard liquor. If I worked at Facebook, I could start a movement among employees to get the ads banned. Another example would be Google employee refusing to work on defense contracts. Netflix management is saying "you can quit if you don't like it" which seems like a reasonable response to me. As for #2, I wish them all the luck. I'm like most people and take a live an let live attitude. I have no problem with trans women. In fact my father is a closet transvestite (he doesn't know I know) so I'd be hating on my own father. What I don't like is being called someone who hates if I don't get with their agenda
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    Trans woman and transvestite are different.
yibg 4y ago
Seems like part of the general pattern of “if you are not with us you are against us” attitude. Now a days it’s not enough to not be for-[some injustice], you have to be actively anti-[some injustice] and tell the world that you are. Otherwise you are a bad person.
HWR_14 4y ago
> the Chappelle special. I think he went too far at a couple places, but that's what comedians do. I want him to stop doing trans jokes because he's not good at them. They aren't funny. As far as I can tell, they are attempts at cheap shock humor that might make sense for a new comedian to try to get some headlines, but not something someone with fame and talent should have to stoop to.
cr__ 4y ago
Are there people passing laws to fuck with people with bipolar disorder? Are there people telling you that you’re incorrect or even mentally ill because you identify as a recovering alcoholic?
- okareaman 4y ago
  I've lost a lot of friends. I've had people tell me they can't stand me because their Dad was an abusive alcoholic. I lost a job because of a manic episode. I know it's hard for normies to understand so I have compassion for their lack of understanding.
- ryan_j_naughton 4y ago
  This comment screams of lack of awareness. We actively drug test people for jobs and deny them employment. It is literally baked into the acceptable reasons to discriminate against people. The stigma is massive. It has been changing primarily because white, suburban people have been losing family members to opioid overdoses, but the stigma is still very real in most the country.
- nahnahno 4y ago
  You clearly don’t have mental illness or a drug addiction. Yes, absolutely, you are severely discriminated against with either of those. People see you as utterly unreliable, weak, and unworthy of the kinds of respect afforded to able minded people.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    This is why you never, ever, ever take advantage of "mental health" or "addiction" resources provided by your employer. It doesn't matter what they tell you about confidentiality. Just get the care you need through your insurance and avoid the potential honeypot. Edit: This comment is heavily biased towards an American audience where at will employment, and health insurance rather than government benefit, are the norm.
  - bradlys 4y ago
robonerd 4y ago
Right. This memo is directed at offended Netflix employees, not offended [ex]Netflix customers. Conservatives on facebook complaining about Netflix being too woke and weird (Cuties, etc) isn't what this memo is about. This is about netflix management reasserting their position of power (particularly with respect to content selection) over netflix workers.
texaslonghorn5 4y ago
I don't think that supports your argument, I think you actually would be justified to ask the world to accommodate you.
- robonerd 4y ago
  No more alcohol consumption in movies then? Romcom heros can't enjoy champagne at their wedding in the end of the movie, because that doesn't accommodate recovering alcoholics who suffer in the mainstream culture of drinking during special occasions? I understand the logic of that, but I don't think the industry should actually go through with that. Such well-meaning content restrictions would unduly restrict artistic expression. Content warnings about alcohol/drug use should be sufficient to warn away anybody who (understandably!) wants to avoid that sort of content.
theossuary 4y ago
- robonerd 4y ago
  > What Netflix just did wasn't pushing back against this fictious overly powerful activism As far as I can gather, the walkout happened. The activism in their company isn't fictitious and this memo is a response to it. Of course "overly powerful" is subjective, but evidently netflix management felt the problem was serious enough to address bluntly.
- okareaman 4y ago
  You must not use Twitter
  - theossuary 4y ago
    Your world view is through the lens of Twitter? Well there's your problem...
    - 1over137 4y ago
      The world view of journalists and politicians is though the lens of Twitter. They live and breathe it. Consequentially, many others see things through the Twitter lens.
    - dchftcs 4y ago
      That's a strawman, he/ she was asked to raise examples about something and brought up Twitter. That's not the same as having a "world viewthrough the lens of Twitter".
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- zionic 4y ago
TaylorAlexander 4y ago
- rendall 4y ago
  > if you’re not trans you may not understand transphobia very well but it’s similar to white people saying they don’t think something is racist This is just a terrible, terrible argument, that leads to a continual ratcheting up and broadening of the definition of "transphobia". Transphobia should mean only "fear or hatred of trans people". What it comes to mean, however: questioning self-identification, questioning trans women in women's sports, questioning trans women in women's spaces, questioning the use of puberty blockers in young children, among others. With these now defined as transphobia, it is no longer necessary to acknowledge any principled, genuine objections or concerns there, because even raising these topics is transphobic (or TERF) by definition. The sad thing here is, a frank discussion might indeed allow trans women and bio women to come to some accommodation, but insisting that some people are the only ones who can define certain words like transphobia elides those conversations. No. Words matter and words belong to us all, not only to those who decide they want to determine the bounds of debate. I say all this with huge, massive respect to the gender warriors out there. I promise, these tactics win skirmishes but will lose the war.
  - thomasfedb 4y ago
    Would be reasonable to expand that to "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against trans people". Hate is a pretty high bar perhaps? The etymology of the -isms and the -phobias is unfortunate. But the <group of people>-phobias are not really about fear.
    - rendall 4y ago
      I agree that expansion is reasonable.
    - renox 4y ago
      Discrimination is a fuzzy word.. Is-it discrimination to forbid trans-women to participate in the same sports category as bio-women?
efleeus 4y ago
- okareaman 4y ago
  Bingo! I got called transphobic
  - efitz 4y ago
    "Transphobic" means "you failed to accept all my premises as axiomatic and then follow up by agreeing with me". It's not just trans* activists. *phobic activists have effectively changed definitions such that meaningful debate is no longer possible. No matter what points you try to raise, you get labeled "*phobe" if you express any reservations. This is a very poor strategy in the long term. In the short term, it suppresses vocal dissent because no one wants to be called names. However, in the longer term the "*phobe" term loses its sting as people realize it's just a way to end an debate without actually debating, so the accuser loses credibility. Activists get more shrill as their tactic's effectiveness wanes, and more people are driven away because who wants to associate with perpetually shrill people? It's an exercise in self-marginalization.
- zionic 4y ago
bryans 4y ago
- zionic 4y ago
fsociety 4y ago
You should read up on Bedlam Hospital and learn more about how privileged we are to not be born in that place and time. Trans people don’t have the same luxury of safety today.
thomasfedb 4y ago
The main point being raised by trans activists is "please let us live our lives and not be horrible to us". There's really not a whole lot more to it than that. So if somebody's "pushing back" on that, I think it's pretty fair to call them transphobic.
- chmod600 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
  - thomasfedb 4y ago
    If you're accusing me, be good enough to be specific.
    - chmod600 4y ago
      "please let us live our lives... not a lot more to it" But there is more to it. There are issues about women's sports, public education, the ethics of irreversible medical procedures on minors without an objective diagnosis, etc. You explicitly avoided the controversy, and it's not really fair to do that.
      - thomasfedb 4y ago
        I do really think that what most trans activists (and most trans people) want is "please let us live our lives". That said, I'm in Australia, and maybe things are really different wherever you are. Of course, "live our lives" includes trans kids being able to live their lives too, being safe at their school, etc. And trans people should be able to play sport if they like, it's a healthy thing to do. As far as social sport goes, I personally prefer mixed sport, but I think that the excitement over trans people playing in women's leagues is unnecessary. At the professional level, I can understand a need for a bit more precision, but my understanding is that the international sporting bodies have regulations and they (the sporting bodies) don't seem to think there's a big issue. As far as "irreversible medical procedures on minors" goes... (and this is the one that spurred me on to reply) ...it's just not a thing. And again, I'm in Australia, but I'm pretty sure this applies globally. To my knowledge, we simply do not perform reassignment surgery on children. The WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) guidelines (available here: https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English2012.pdf?_t=1613669341 https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_... ) clearly state that one of the criteria for surgery is being "the legal age of majority to give consent for medical procedures in a given country"
aeturnum 4y ago
> I don't think it's transphobic to push back on trans activists. You say you're part of several vulnerable populations, but you don't ask the world to "accommodate" you - but the complains trans people have about Chappelle are not about 'making their lives easier.' Where transphobia (or any prejudicial viewpoint) comes into play is refusing to take vulnerable populations' viewpoints seriously. When trans people point out that they are at much greater risk of violence and also point out studies on how rhetoric contributes to dehumanization promotes violence - you need to take the idea that this isn't "what comedians do" because the impact of saying things about different groups will be different. Transphobia isn't "disagreeing with trans people" - in this case it's not taking peoples' views seriously because they are trans. When you say "I have problems too but I don't bother people about it" - you suggest that your problems are similar to trans peoples'. It is explictly illegal to discriminate against you for your mental health conditions, but trans people have far fewer protections[1]. Considering that Texas just recently criminalized being trans under the age of 18, I would really ask you to consider if that view is correct and how it makes you look to say it. Edit: I got a little ramble-y - in general: oppression is possible when vulnerable populations' descriptions of why and how they are treated worse are not taken seriously. People in vulnerable populations can be wrong (like all of us!) - but in order to point that out in a way that doesn't promote oppression you have to start your disagreement from a point where what you are disagreeing with is a position that the vulnerable population agrees they hold. [1] https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/depression-ptsd-other-mental-health-conditions-workplace-your-legal-rights https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/depression-ptsd-other-men...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- h3cate 4y ago
  I don't think it's in a comedians job description to take anything seriously
- shephardjhon 4y ago
  I agree with your points but his particular joke was about transphobia vs racism. That trans and gay people can turn on their white privilage in a second to attack black people, including using cops to attack black people, knowing cops are trained to fear black people and use excessive force against them. Of course he isnt taking into account people who are both black and trans but in only this one case, you need to actually understand the joke first. All that said, Netflix is also wrong because as employees of Netflix the people will be linked to this content weather they like it or not and it doesnt matter what content you are talking about weather its The Bodyguard(Islamophobic), Dave Chapelle(Transphobia), Squid Game(anti capatilist or anti communist depending on whi you ask) or probably the worst, Cuties(GOP and Qanon has diluted this word, but pedophilia). If you are an employee and this is original content, your name is forever linked to it and so you should be able to have a say in it. If it was purchased content, maybe you could say you weren't involved. Overall this is a complex issue with multiple layers and I say this all as a hardcore leftist.
alexander-litty 4y ago
It’s transphobic in the “hydrophobic” sense. I don’t think he merely pushes back on activists; I find he delegitimizes the movement altogether. Which, disclaimer, I do think anyone should be free to do. But people who are offended must be free to share their thoughts as well, then. It’s akin to saying alcohol addiction isn’t a real addiction. It’s not that you’re making fun of alcoholics, the idea of an alcohol addict, or the behavior and recovery of an alcohol addict — You’re instead devaluing the idea that someone can be addicted to alcohol, falsifying their reality. Sure, many people can laugh at that, but it’s only going to be the people who can’t relate. The people who have never been familiar with or been victim to substance abuse can probably laugh at the idea that you can just “stop drinking right now, there, problem solved, now what was so hard about that?” because the idea is so foreign to them. Humor will always be divisive, which means as a comedian you alone wield the responsibility for where that line will be drawn. Chapelle intentionally draws it on personal identity. I think we can support better comedy than that. Anyone can make an in-crowd; A great comedian makes you the subject and makes you laugh about it too.
devwastaken 4y ago
The Chapelle special acts opposite from its criticism. People are already generally discriminatory to the idea of trans. Chapelle brings this to the front, and makes a number of compelling arguments for why it's "real". Yes, he makes a number of poor arguments about the trans "community" (it's not one community), but if he were to be on stage talking up everything trans nobody is going to listen. People can have opinions without being evil.
ryzvonusef 4y ago
on trans issues: one thing that struck me is how different views on transgenderism are in the US, for example, than my country. In my country, transgender actually FOUGHT for the right to NOT be counted as a man or a women, and finally won the right to be counted as a third gender, with the rights that follow it. That mean that, the slogans here are NOT, for example, that "Transwomen are Women" but instead, "transwomen are TRANSwomen" (i.e. don't lump them with man/women, labels which are considered cis-specific.) or that they demanded SEPERATE bathrooms for their gender, and DON'T want to be forced to be use men/women bathrooms. Such opinions would be considered extremely transphobic in the US, but are what trans-people actively fought for here. I'm not saying my country is a beacon for LGBTQ+ rights, simply pointing out that issues that the western Transgender community face (Gender Identifications issues from TERFs, or bathroom related panics) would simply be a non-issue here because the clash simply doesn't arise in the first place! Women wouldn't feel threatened by transwomen, because they would never want to step into each other's territories in anyway. I am not sure what the ideal is, just that western trans community might need to look at a global view and realize that perhaps what they consider transphobic, are actually sought-for rights by members of their own community in the East, and how they can better move forwards in this regards. ---- also, I do need to highlight that rules do not translate into ground realities, which are often bleak regardless of legislation. Discrimination and violent attacks are rampant here, we are in no way a utopia. but here are some links which might better explain what I was trying to convey: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pakistan-s-1st-transgender-lawyer-went-begging-street-fighting-court-n1269090 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pakistan-s-1st-trans... https://www.reuters.com/article/Pakistan-transgender-census/dont-we-count-transgender-pakistanis-feel-sidelined-by-census-idUSL8N1ME398 https://www.reuters.com/article/Pakistan-transgender-census/... https://www.npr.org/2012/09/03/160496712/pakistans-transgenders-in-a-category-of-their-own https://www.npr.org/2012/09/03/160496712/pakistans-transgend... https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pakistan-issues-landmark-transgender-passport-n778076 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pakistan-issues-land...
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  Trans people in Pakistan fought for the state to recognize a traditional 3rd gender. Most European cultures and offshoots don't have an equivalent. 1 of the biggest issues now in the US is if trans youth should receive any affirming treatment. Even puberty blockers. Calling them a 3rd gender wouldn't change the sides.
hemreldop 4y ago
Dave Chapelle is a hero. Downvote me all you want but drawing a distinction between sex and gender is pure delusion at best and a mental disease at worst.
antifa 4y ago
> but I don't go around demanding the world accommodate me I think you'd feel very different about what this sentence really means if people maliciously assumed you were drunk driving or a pedofile just because you wore a budweiser shirt. Or if there were plans for laws making bipolar specialists illegal, or outlawing non-christian addiction programs. Or if there were laws forbidding teachers from mentioning that psychological disorders in general (but especially bipolar) exist and required them to snitch on you to your parents and the state if it were suspected that you were bipolar.

cato_the_elder 4y ago

otde 4y ago
aaomidi 4y ago
bin_bash 4y ago
propaganda for which side?
- squintychino 4y ago
  Clearly it's propaganda for the non-trans majority that are not comfortable with trans people. Just like trans people came up with their 'cis people' propaganda to deal with their uncomfortableness with non-trans people. An eye for an eye makes the world blind...
  - sdenton4 4y ago
    How would you feel about your first statement of the word 'trans' were replaced with Black, gay, Catholic or really any other protected class?
    - weepit 4y ago
      There's no real comparison to any of those categories. It's more like: white people claiming to be black, straight people saying they're gay, or Muslims identifying as Catholics. Transgender is just people desiring to be what they are not, and can never be. But we're all supposed to accept their wishful thinking as truth.
steve_taylor 4y ago
- goosedragons 4y ago
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  Phobic has more than 1 meaning. Photophobia and hydrophobia aren't mental illnesses.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    Mental illness probably isn't the right word for it, but hydrophobia is indisputably a disease of the brain. The virus travels from the bite wound up your CNS; when it reaches your brain you die in agony.
    - pseudalopex 4y ago
      Mental illness isn't the right word for it. And hydrophobia is a symptom of a brain disease more accurately.
      - robonerd 4y ago
        Hydrophobia is a common (albeit bit archaic?) name for the disease generally, inspired by the symptom.
        pseudalopex 4y ago
        That definition is more than a bit archaic.

nautilius 4y ago

Not sure what that steep price is you would pay to 'accommodate' trans people? It requires nothing on your part except for acknowledging and respecting their existence.

h3cate 4y ago
Where did they say they weren't acknowledging or accomodating trans people? Original comment clearly acknowledges trans people exist?
- nautilius 4y ago
  OP very clearly writes that they "don't think it's transphobic to push back on trans activists" who, unlike him, "demand the world accommodate". Again, the only 'accommodation' that is asked is to just let them live. Seems like not a hard thing to do, and not something one would have to go out of their way of to 'push back against'. If you don't like the thought of buttfucking, don't. If you don't like the thought of people who identify differently from their biological sex, don't. If you don't like the thought of eating kale, don't. It's simple, it costs you nothing. Nothing at all.
  - PolygonSheep 4y ago
    > Again, the only 'accommodation' that is asked is to just let them live. Seems like not a hard thing to do, and not something one would have to go out of their way of to 'push back against'. But OP is letting them live. Unless you are alleging OP is running around killing trans people??
    - nautilius 4y ago
      OP is making no statement about what they do, only that they find it reasonable to push back against that simple wish of the trans community.
      - grrraal 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dehrmann 4y ago

It's also a reaction to the Spotify Joe Rogan drama.

jancsika 4y ago

okareaman 4y ago
I solidly mean #1. I hate that Facebook and others started advertising hard liquor. If I worked at Facebook, I could start a movement among employees to get the ads banned. Another example would be Google employee refusing to work on defense contracts. Netflix management is saying "you can quit if you don't like it" which seems like a reasonable response to me. As for #2, I wish them all the luck. I'm like most people and take a live an let live attitude. I have no problem with trans women. In fact my father is a closet transvestite (he doesn't know I know) so I'd be hating on my own father. What I don't like is being called someone who hates if I don't get with their agenda
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  Trans woman and transvestite are different.

yibg 4y ago

Seems like part of the general pattern of “if you are not with us you are against us” attitude. Now a days it’s not enough to not be for-[some injustice], you have to be actively anti-[some injustice] and tell the world that you are. Otherwise you are a bad person.

HWR_14 4y ago

> the Chappelle special. I think he went too far at a couple places, but that's what comedians do. I want him to stop doing trans jokes because he's not good at them. They aren't funny. As far as I can tell, they are attempts at cheap shock humor that might make sense for a new comedian to try to get some headlines, but not something someone with fame and talent should have to stoop to.

cr__ 4y ago

Are there people passing laws to fuck with people with bipolar disorder? Are there people telling you that you’re incorrect or even mentally ill because you identify as a recovering alcoholic?

okareaman 4y ago
I've lost a lot of friends. I've had people tell me they can't stand me because their Dad was an abusive alcoholic. I lost a job because of a manic episode. I know it's hard for normies to understand so I have compassion for their lack of understanding.
ryan_j_naughton 4y ago
This comment screams of lack of awareness. We actively drug test people for jobs and deny them employment. It is literally baked into the acceptable reasons to discriminate against people. The stigma is massive. It has been changing primarily because white, suburban people have been losing family members to opioid overdoses, but the stigma is still very real in most the country.
nahnahno 4y ago
You clearly don’t have mental illness or a drug addiction. Yes, absolutely, you are severely discriminated against with either of those. People see you as utterly unreliable, weak, and unworthy of the kinds of respect afforded to able minded people.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  This is why you never, ever, ever take advantage of "mental health" or "addiction" resources provided by your employer. It doesn't matter what they tell you about confidentiality. Just get the care you need through your insurance and avoid the potential honeypot. Edit: This comment is heavily biased towards an American audience where at will employment, and health insurance rather than government benefit, are the norm.
- bradlys 4y ago

robonerd 4y ago

Right. This memo is directed at offended Netflix employees, not offended [ex]Netflix customers. Conservatives on facebook complaining about Netflix being too woke and weird (Cuties, etc) isn't what this memo is about. This is about netflix management reasserting their position of power (particularly with respect to content selection) over netflix workers.

texaslonghorn5 4y ago

I don't think that supports your argument, I think you actually would be justified to ask the world to accommodate you.

robonerd 4y ago
No more alcohol consumption in movies then? Romcom heros can't enjoy champagne at their wedding in the end of the movie, because that doesn't accommodate recovering alcoholics who suffer in the mainstream culture of drinking during special occasions? I understand the logic of that, but I don't think the industry should actually go through with that. Such well-meaning content restrictions would unduly restrict artistic expression. Content warnings about alcohol/drug use should be sufficient to warn away anybody who (understandably!) wants to avoid that sort of content.

theossuary 4y ago

robonerd 4y ago
> What Netflix just did wasn't pushing back against this fictious overly powerful activism As far as I can gather, the walkout happened. The activism in their company isn't fictitious and this memo is a response to it. Of course "overly powerful" is subjective, but evidently netflix management felt the problem was serious enough to address bluntly.
okareaman 4y ago
You must not use Twitter
- theossuary 4y ago
  Your world view is through the lens of Twitter? Well there's your problem...
  - 1over137 4y ago
    The world view of journalists and politicians is though the lens of Twitter. They live and breathe it. Consequentially, many others see things through the Twitter lens.
  - dchftcs 4y ago
    That's a strawman, he/ she was asked to raise examples about something and brought up Twitter. That's not the same as having a "world viewthrough the lens of Twitter".
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
zionic 4y ago

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

rendall 4y ago
> if you’re not trans you may not understand transphobia very well but it’s similar to white people saying they don’t think something is racist This is just a terrible, terrible argument, that leads to a continual ratcheting up and broadening of the definition of "transphobia". Transphobia should mean only "fear or hatred of trans people". What it comes to mean, however: questioning self-identification, questioning trans women in women's sports, questioning trans women in women's spaces, questioning the use of puberty blockers in young children, among others. With these now defined as transphobia, it is no longer necessary to acknowledge any principled, genuine objections or concerns there, because even raising these topics is transphobic (or TERF) by definition. The sad thing here is, a frank discussion might indeed allow trans women and bio women to come to some accommodation, but insisting that some people are the only ones who can define certain words like transphobia elides those conversations. No. Words matter and words belong to us all, not only to those who decide they want to determine the bounds of debate. I say all this with huge, massive respect to the gender warriors out there. I promise, these tactics win skirmishes but will lose the war.
- thomasfedb 4y ago
  Would be reasonable to expand that to "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against trans people". Hate is a pretty high bar perhaps? The etymology of the -isms and the -phobias is unfortunate. But the <group of people>-phobias are not really about fear.
  - rendall 4y ago
    I agree that expansion is reasonable.
  - renox 4y ago
    Discrimination is a fuzzy word.. Is-it discrimination to forbid trans-women to participate in the same sports category as bio-women?

efleeus 4y ago

okareaman 4y ago
Bingo! I got called transphobic
- efitz 4y ago
  "Transphobic" means "you failed to accept all my premises as axiomatic and then follow up by agreeing with me". It's not just trans* activists. *phobic activists have effectively changed definitions such that meaningful debate is no longer possible. No matter what points you try to raise, you get labeled "*phobe" if you express any reservations. This is a very poor strategy in the long term. In the short term, it suppresses vocal dissent because no one wants to be called names. However, in the longer term the "*phobe" term loses its sting as people realize it's just a way to end an debate without actually debating, so the accuser loses credibility. Activists get more shrill as their tactic's effectiveness wanes, and more people are driven away because who wants to associate with perpetually shrill people? It's an exercise in self-marginalization.
zionic 4y ago

bryans 4y ago

zionic 4y ago

fsociety 4y ago

You should read up on Bedlam Hospital and learn more about how privileged we are to not be born in that place and time. Trans people don’t have the same luxury of safety today.

thomasfedb 4y ago

The main point being raised by trans activists is "please let us live our lives and not be horrible to us". There's really not a whole lot more to it than that. So if somebody's "pushing back" on that, I think it's pretty fair to call them transphobic.

chmod600 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
- thomasfedb 4y ago
  If you're accusing me, be good enough to be specific.
  - chmod600 4y ago
    "please let us live our lives... not a lot more to it" But there is more to it. There are issues about women's sports, public education, the ethics of irreversible medical procedures on minors without an objective diagnosis, etc. You explicitly avoided the controversy, and it's not really fair to do that.
    - thomasfedb 4y ago
      I do really think that what most trans activists (and most trans people) want is "please let us live our lives". That said, I'm in Australia, and maybe things are really different wherever you are. Of course, "live our lives" includes trans kids being able to live their lives too, being safe at their school, etc. And trans people should be able to play sport if they like, it's a healthy thing to do. As far as social sport goes, I personally prefer mixed sport, but I think that the excitement over trans people playing in women's leagues is unnecessary. At the professional level, I can understand a need for a bit more precision, but my understanding is that the international sporting bodies have regulations and they (the sporting bodies) don't seem to think there's a big issue. As far as "irreversible medical procedures on minors" goes... (and this is the one that spurred me on to reply) ...it's just not a thing. And again, I'm in Australia, but I'm pretty sure this applies globally. To my knowledge, we simply do not perform reassignment surgery on children. The WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) guidelines (available here: https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English2012.pdf?_t=1613669341 https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_... ) clearly state that one of the criteria for surgery is being "the legal age of majority to give consent for medical procedures in a given country"

aeturnum 4y ago

> I don't think it's transphobic to push back on trans activists. You say you're part of several vulnerable populations, but you don't ask the world to "accommodate" you - but the complains trans people have about Chappelle are not about 'making their lives easier.' Where transphobia (or any prejudicial viewpoint) comes into play is refusing to take vulnerable populations' viewpoints seriously. When trans people point out that they are at much greater risk of violence and also point out studies on how rhetoric contributes to dehumanization promotes violence - you need to take the idea that this isn't "what comedians do" because the impact of saying things about different groups will be different. Transphobia isn't "disagreeing with trans people" - in this case it's not taking peoples' views seriously because they are trans. When you say "I have problems too but I don't bother people about it" - you suggest that your problems are similar to trans peoples'. It is explictly illegal to discriminate against you for your mental health conditions, but trans people have far fewer protections[1]. Considering that Texas just recently criminalized being trans under the age of 18, I would really ask you to consider if that view is correct and how it makes you look to say it. Edit: I got a little ramble-y - in general: oppression is possible when vulnerable populations' descriptions of why and how they are treated worse are not taken seriously. People in vulnerable populations can be wrong (like all of us!) - but in order to point that out in a way that doesn't promote oppression you have to start your disagreement from a point where what you are disagreeing with is a position that the vulnerable population agrees they hold. [1] https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/depression-ptsd-other-mental-health-conditions-workplace-your-legal-rights https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/depression-ptsd-other-men...

deleted 4y ago
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h3cate 4y ago
I don't think it's in a comedians job description to take anything seriously
shephardjhon 4y ago
I agree with your points but his particular joke was about transphobia vs racism. That trans and gay people can turn on their white privilage in a second to attack black people, including using cops to attack black people, knowing cops are trained to fear black people and use excessive force against them. Of course he isnt taking into account people who are both black and trans but in only this one case, you need to actually understand the joke first. All that said, Netflix is also wrong because as employees of Netflix the people will be linked to this content weather they like it or not and it doesnt matter what content you are talking about weather its The Bodyguard(Islamophobic), Dave Chapelle(Transphobia), Squid Game(anti capatilist or anti communist depending on whi you ask) or probably the worst, Cuties(GOP and Qanon has diluted this word, but pedophilia). If you are an employee and this is original content, your name is forever linked to it and so you should be able to have a say in it. If it was purchased content, maybe you could say you weren't involved. Overall this is a complex issue with multiple layers and I say this all as a hardcore leftist.

alexander-litty 4y ago

It’s transphobic in the “hydrophobic” sense. I don’t think he merely pushes back on activists; I find he delegitimizes the movement altogether. Which, disclaimer, I do think anyone should be free to do. But people who are offended must be free to share their thoughts as well, then. It’s akin to saying alcohol addiction isn’t a real addiction. It’s not that you’re making fun of alcoholics, the idea of an alcohol addict, or the behavior and recovery of an alcohol addict — You’re instead devaluing the idea that someone can be addicted to alcohol, falsifying their reality. Sure, many people can laugh at that, but it’s only going to be the people who can’t relate. The people who have never been familiar with or been victim to substance abuse can probably laugh at the idea that you can just “stop drinking right now, there, problem solved, now what was so hard about that?” because the idea is so foreign to them. Humor will always be divisive, which means as a comedian you alone wield the responsibility for where that line will be drawn. Chapelle intentionally draws it on personal identity. I think we can support better comedy than that. Anyone can make an in-crowd; A great comedian makes you the subject and makes you laugh about it too.

devwastaken 4y ago

The Chapelle special acts opposite from its criticism. People are already generally discriminatory to the idea of trans. Chapelle brings this to the front, and makes a number of compelling arguments for why it's "real". Yes, he makes a number of poor arguments about the trans "community" (it's not one community), but if he were to be on stage talking up everything trans nobody is going to listen. People can have opinions without being evil.

ryzvonusef 4y ago

on trans issues: one thing that struck me is how different views on transgenderism are in the US, for example, than my country. In my country, transgender actually FOUGHT for the right to NOT be counted as a man or a women, and finally won the right to be counted as a third gender, with the rights that follow it. That mean that, the slogans here are NOT, for example, that "Transwomen are Women" but instead, "transwomen are TRANSwomen" (i.e. don't lump them with man/women, labels which are considered cis-specific.) or that they demanded SEPERATE bathrooms for their gender, and DON'T want to be forced to be use men/women bathrooms. Such opinions would be considered extremely transphobic in the US, but are what trans-people actively fought for here. I'm not saying my country is a beacon for LGBTQ+ rights, simply pointing out that issues that the western Transgender community face (Gender Identifications issues from TERFs, or bathroom related panics) would simply be a non-issue here because the clash simply doesn't arise in the first place! Women wouldn't feel threatened by transwomen, because they would never want to step into each other's territories in anyway. I am not sure what the ideal is, just that western trans community might need to look at a global view and realize that perhaps what they consider transphobic, are actually sought-for rights by members of their own community in the East, and how they can better move forwards in this regards. ---- also, I do need to highlight that rules do not translate into ground realities, which are often bleak regardless of legislation. Discrimination and violent attacks are rampant here, we are in no way a utopia. but here are some links which might better explain what I was trying to convey: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pakistan-s-1st-transgender-lawyer-went-begging-street-fighting-court-n1269090 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pakistan-s-1st-trans... https://www.reuters.com/article/Pakistan-transgender-census/dont-we-count-transgender-pakistanis-feel-sidelined-by-census-idUSL8N1ME398 https://www.reuters.com/article/Pakistan-transgender-census/... https://www.npr.org/2012/09/03/160496712/pakistans-transgenders-in-a-category-of-their-own https://www.npr.org/2012/09/03/160496712/pakistans-transgend... https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pakistan-issues-landmark-transgender-passport-n778076 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pakistan-issues-land...

pseudalopex 4y ago
Trans people in Pakistan fought for the state to recognize a traditional 3rd gender. Most European cultures and offshoots don't have an equivalent. 1 of the biggest issues now in the US is if trans youth should receive any affirming treatment. Even puberty blockers. Calling them a 3rd gender wouldn't change the sides.

hemreldop 4y ago

Dave Chapelle is a hero. Downvote me all you want but drawing a distinction between sex and gender is pure delusion at best and a mental disease at worst.

antifa 4y ago

> but I don't go around demanding the world accommodate me I think you'd feel very different about what this sentence really means if people maliciously assumed you were drunk driving or a pedofile just because you wore a budweiser shirt. Or if there were plans for laws making bipolar specialists illegal, or outlawing non-christian addiction programs. Or if there were laws forbidding teachers from mentioning that psychological disorders in general (but especially bipolar) exist and required them to snitch on you to your parents and the state if it were suspected that you were bipolar.