6 ms·

Not defending Ivermectin, but what do people have against trying alternative therapeutics for COVID? I rarely see articles bashing the "other side" for being wr

Not defending Ivermectin, but what do people have against trying alternative therapeutics for COVID? I rarely see articles bashing the "other side" for being wrong on many COVID decisions: CDC flip-flopping on masks CDC flip-flopping on how vaccine prevents spreads Airplanes being the safest with high quality filters, yet they are the only place where masking is still required (which even the airlines disagree with) CNN calling Ivermectin a horse dewormer, when Ivermectin has been administered to a large percentage of the global population ... the list goes on and on *edit for formatting

skyde 4y ago
the problem is not that Ivermectin is only for Horse. It's that the huge amount of misinformation caused people to get the horse version instead of asking a doctor for the version designed for human. Its basically uneducated peoples trying to self prescribe because they think they know better than a doctor that spent 14 year in school and had GPA of 3.5+.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mariuolo 4y ago
> Not defending Ivermectin, but what do people have against trying alternative therapeutics for COVID? Nothing at all, as long as proper testing procedures are followed.
- skyde 4y ago
  right there are other therapeutics that look more promising. ex: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04661-w.epdf?sharing_token=PSmpYRF9ORzbd8rGMPz8X9RgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0N4JB_mNROefRsuIW_Cd0WB5B-0yTtI5KZCAnyKgM8q5zhLX3DnE9_jRXlcerlI-wZVETnlK6u6V76zjQm0fYK29C1kWnm-ZoYBw3ND8n_Ln7gu6RB5u8vVLsgafssDDNg%3D https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04661-w.epdf?shar...
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  No, we only wish that was true. There's definitely a lot of blind tribalism on the supposedly pro-science side. I've seen it first-hand.
ev1 4y ago
I went through SARS (v1, high mortality rate) and previously lived in a country where the default is to wear a surgical mask any time you are sick, and it's been utterly strange seeing the US response and severe misunderstanding of how things change. The vaccine prevented spread amazingly well, assuming the mRNA one and original strain. This changed several strains later. Even when the vaccine actually did an excellent job of preventing spread entirely the US still did not get anywhere near enough vaccination, or even halfway. Most vaccines need something like 90%+ uptake for actual herd immunity, including refreshing when they wear off to maintain it - across the entire population, not just 90%+ of adults. IIRC, measles starts community spreading again when it dips below the mid to high 90s - none of this is new, but the US/CDC somehow treated it like "wow we have reached almost halfway (if you ignore more than half the population that isn't eligible but can still spread it!), what a success". Masks work excellently when worn by everyone properly (or N95-equivalent+ when worn by one side). Masks do not work when people take them off all the time and pretend to have a water bottle. Bandanas do not work well. Gaiters do not work well. I also frequently saw some really ridiculous "outdoor dining" where it was tents or bubbles sealed on all ends, with circulated air/heating. That is not outdoor dining, and is pointless if you are trying to reduce spread. Pretty much all my (APAC-team, most also been through SARS) coworkers were incredibly confused as to why the US/CDC thought the virus was not permitted to infect you if you were actively eating or drinking. Indoor dining and chatter permitted during peak spread while you only had to put on a mask when you got up? What is the point? Almost every time I see someone wearing even a surgical mask in US imagery, the nosepiece was not pushed down to form a better seal, it's below their nose, or some other form of inanity while complaining how they don't work. One of the worst things is when someone is in an enclosed area and keeps their mask off while exhaling continuously, only putting it on when someone comes in. At that point you already have a full room of aerosol. When everyone does something horrifically wrong, ignoring all guidelines and instructions, then says x doesn't work and is pointless, that is not x's fault. There is also the whole "you should stay at home and not go to large social events BUT you can go to work that usually has more people than a friend's place, also no sick pay, also no time off" that is another can of worms.
- skyde 4y ago
  while I agree with you that mask themselves when used correctly (ex: by doctors ) work. What I learned from the anti-vaxxer on Facebook is that when they say "mask does not work" they mean "the government guideline does not work". Like you said it need to be cultural and people need to genuinely try to use mask correctly not just because its the rule.
nomel 4y ago
You're looking at tribalism. In my life, COVID has easily been the best example of how tribalistic people are, and how that tribalism just completely stamps out logical thought, in otherwise smart people. I think the crazy picture of Joe Rogan is enough to indicate that this is probably not a piece with any sort of depth or nuance.
zactato 4y ago
Science is a relatively slow process, it takes a long time to understand how diseases work. Virtually every other disease has been studied for years or decades before a properly understanding how it spreads, how it grows within the body, how it manifests, how it can be defeated. Influenza has existed for over a hundred years and we're still learning more about it. The CDC needed to make decisions quickly at the beginning of the pandemic before anything about the disease was really understood. As they learned more information they changed those decisions. Did they do all of this perfectly? No. Did they fuck up at moments? Sure. Have aspects of their response been way too political? Yes. They're human and not perfect. They were working under insane conditions and made some mistakes. At the same time that we were learning about the disease, it was also changing. The strains that are common now behave differently than the strains that existed two years ago. This also complicates the process. You are criticizing the CDC for "flip-flopping" when they've simply responded to new information and a changing disease. Do you expect them to have known all they know now on Day 1 of the disease? Do you expect them to have said zero for several years until everything was 100% known? Whats your fucking point here?
- aaron695 4y ago
- nomel 4y ago
  The problem is that the CDC presented things as fact, without any communication of uncertainty, so their change in stance was perceived as a change is stance, rather than some smooth approach to an "understanding". This was made worse by the fact that health experts (or anyone) who voiced these uncertainties, concerns, or pointed out the flaws/needed changes were silenced and bullied on social media, even if time proved that they were right. The tribalism was/is insane. The communication from the US government was terrible, especially compared to other countries who's health leaders don't assume their populace are idiots.
- dreaminvm 4y ago
  My point is that they've received basically no criticism for many of their mistakes. Saying vaccines will prevent the spread of COVID-19 makes no sense if they've not proven so ever, why make a massive policy decision which likely contributed to further spread (many restrictions were lifted due to their announcement, only to be put back later). Or as another example, they continued to require masks for children even as many countries removed that requirement long ago with data showing that it was safe to do so. Or that they mistakenly counted non-Covid related deaths (72k deaths) in their mortality data. I call out flip-flopping as it reduces what little confidence the public has in their policy decisions and further empowers the fringe in discussions of ineffective treatments. No one is saying they should know on Day 1 of anything. That's a nonsense expectation. I do however expect them to communicate better and to educate the public on the evolution of the disease rather than rushing to any decisions until the data is clear.
dbbk 4y ago
I don't think anyone is really against trying alternative treatements... if anything if we had one that worked that would be ideal, as it's already mass produced and the infrastructure already exists. The problem is people latched onto the idea of Ivermectin being beneficial, when the studies did not show that. So it was just fantasy. And people inevitably died because they thought they knew better than real doctors and decided to treat themselves with it.
timcavel 4y ago
computer23 4y ago
There are well-established guidelines for ethically testing and prescribing experimental drugs. If the individuals who have been peddling ivermectin and vitamin cocktails had instead encouraged enrollment in randomized controlled trials overseen by Institutional Review Boards to protect the rights and safety of human subjects, we would have quickly generated high quality data to determine safety and efficacy of ivermectin for COVID. The haphazard global distribution of ivermectin meant that no meaningful data could be generated to determine if it worked. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonbatemanhouse/2017/12/20/what-you-need-to-know-about-clinical-trials-before-you-need-one/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonbatemanhouse/2017/12/20/w... The rest of your comments are distracting "whataboutisms" but to clarify: • Airplanes may have good air circulation while the plane is flying but prior to take off and in airports, air circulation isn't so good. • People were buying horse dewormer based on false claims about ivermectin. This is fact. • As we learned more about the virus (e.g. the frequency of spread by asymptomatic individuals) and as the virus mutated (e.g. to be more infectious and not as "on target" for the vaccines), recommendations have changed.
- dreaminvm 4y ago
  I agree with your points on ethically testing and prescribing experimental drugs. The intent of my comment is to highlight the media's focus on one side of wrong decisions which only further divides the public. * For airplanes, I am pointing out the requirement for masking currently even when masking is not required anywhere in California/New York (2 of the most restrictive states for COVID throughout the pandemic) for indoor. It's pure theatre to have people show up to the airport never wearing a mask and then putting it on (ineffectively no less) and then taking it off immediately when they leave the airport. * Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic which has been prescribed 3.7 billion times (and won a nobel prize). Does it help with Covid? Current data seems to imply it does not. My callout is on the media calling its a horse dewormer (which while true is meant to mislead). * On virus mutations, see my comment on flip-flopping.
coolso 4y ago
> Not defending Ivermectin, but what do people have against trying alternative therapeutics for COVID? You have to look at everything surrounding COVID in context. The most important context was that prior to COVID, Trump was obviously going to be re-elected. None of the world-ending catastrophes that everyone said would happen under him, did, in fact we got a lot of good out of his administration. The economy was great, taxes were low, gas prices were low, etc. But then COVID happened, and finally, the opposition saw their opening. If they had any hope of Trump losing reelection, this was their only chance, and so every single day they did whatever they could to blame everything on Trump and only Trump, and did whatever they could to come to the defense of any organization or entity that Trump assigned blame to (WHO, China, etc.), and they also did whatever they could to trash anything that looked like it might help reduce the effects of the pandemic prior to the election. People on a particular side of the aisle were "TERRIFIED" that the vaccine would be released before the election. You'll recall, for example, that many of the people and organizations that shame everyone as "anti-vaxxers" for being wary of the vaccine, did that very same thing just prior to the election, spreading FUD (including Biden himself): https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccin... Ivermectin, a life-saving drug WHO-listed essential drug (found ineffective for most for COVID) that has a side-effect profile close to that of the antibiotics we as a country receive so many prescriptions of like candy, was referred to as "horse paste", and do you know why some idiots were resorting to getting the animal kind instead of the human kind? Because the media and the establishment treated this relatively harmless drug as something evil and so people who are inclined to believe everything is a conspiracy, had that further reinforced in their minds, so they did whatever they could to seek something that the establishment was actively trying to keep from them.
- icedistilled 4y ago
  >in fact we got a lot of good out of his administration. The economy was great, taxes were low, gas prices were low This a mixture of the state of the country Obama left him with and things that presidents and their admin don't have much influence over. Do you actually think Biden increased gas prices as if the effects of the pandemic and war (that trump likely helped cause by his deference to putin and hostility towards nato) aren't the actual causes? Trump threw out the pandemic playbook. Trump and the GOP's raised taxes on a substantial number of middle class and lower income people. Some of it was immediately and some of those increases were left as timebombs. I really could go on and on, but that will turn in to arguing on the internet. But that statement on how "good" trump's admin suggests extremely rose colored glasses on what actually went on.
IE6 4y ago
> Not defending Ivermectin, but what do people have against trying alternative therapeutics for COVID? I don't think this is actually a widespread problem and I don't believe that the majority of the people who are "against" Ivermectin are somehow also against trying alternative therapeutics... > CNN calling Ivermectin a horse dewormer I'm actually curious because this is a very well coordinated and repeated talking point of the right: what does CNN calling Ivermectin a horse dewormer mean to you and why is that so significant?
- dreaminvm 4y ago
  Highlighting the deception from the media. It would be like calling Aspirin a dog pain reliever or the Hepatitis vaccine a dog vaccine which while true is meant to mislead and likely framed the people trying alternative therapeutics like Ivermectin as insane. Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic which has been prescribed 3.7 billion times to people. Does it help with Covid? Current data seems to imply it does not.

skyde 4y ago

the problem is not that Ivermectin is only for Horse. It's that the huge amount of misinformation caused people to get the horse version instead of asking a doctor for the version designed for human. Its basically uneducated peoples trying to self prescribe because they think they know better than a doctor that spent 14 year in school and had GPA of 3.5+.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mariuolo 4y ago

> Not defending Ivermectin, but what do people have against trying alternative therapeutics for COVID? Nothing at all, as long as proper testing procedures are followed.

skyde 4y ago
right there are other therapeutics that look more promising. ex: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04661-w.epdf?sharing_token=PSmpYRF9ORzbd8rGMPz8X9RgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0N4JB_mNROefRsuIW_Cd0WB5B-0yTtI5KZCAnyKgM8q5zhLX3DnE9_jRXlcerlI-wZVETnlK6u6V76zjQm0fYK29C1kWnm-ZoYBw3ND8n_Ln7gu6RB5u8vVLsgafssDDNg%3D https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04661-w.epdf?shar...
andrewflnr 4y ago
No, we only wish that was true. There's definitely a lot of blind tribalism on the supposedly pro-science side. I've seen it first-hand.

ev1 4y ago

I went through SARS (v1, high mortality rate) and previously lived in a country where the default is to wear a surgical mask any time you are sick, and it's been utterly strange seeing the US response and severe misunderstanding of how things change. The vaccine prevented spread amazingly well, assuming the mRNA one and original strain. This changed several strains later. Even when the vaccine actually did an excellent job of preventing spread entirely the US still did not get anywhere near enough vaccination, or even halfway. Most vaccines need something like 90%+ uptake for actual herd immunity, including refreshing when they wear off to maintain it - across the entire population, not just 90%+ of adults. IIRC, measles starts community spreading again when it dips below the mid to high 90s - none of this is new, but the US/CDC somehow treated it like "wow we have reached almost halfway (if you ignore more than half the population that isn't eligible but can still spread it!), what a success". Masks work excellently when worn by everyone properly (or N95-equivalent+ when worn by one side). Masks do not work when people take them off all the time and pretend to have a water bottle. Bandanas do not work well. Gaiters do not work well. I also frequently saw some really ridiculous "outdoor dining" where it was tents or bubbles sealed on all ends, with circulated air/heating. That is not outdoor dining, and is pointless if you are trying to reduce spread. Pretty much all my (APAC-team, most also been through SARS) coworkers were incredibly confused as to why the US/CDC thought the virus was not permitted to infect you if you were actively eating or drinking. Indoor dining and chatter permitted during peak spread while you only had to put on a mask when you got up? What is the point? Almost every time I see someone wearing even a surgical mask in US imagery, the nosepiece was not pushed down to form a better seal, it's below their nose, or some other form of inanity while complaining how they don't work. One of the worst things is when someone is in an enclosed area and keeps their mask off while exhaling continuously, only putting it on when someone comes in. At that point you already have a full room of aerosol. When everyone does something horrifically wrong, ignoring all guidelines and instructions, then says x doesn't work and is pointless, that is not x's fault. There is also the whole "you should stay at home and not go to large social events BUT you can go to work that usually has more people than a friend's place, also no sick pay, also no time off" that is another can of worms.

skyde 4y ago
while I agree with you that mask themselves when used correctly (ex: by doctors ) work. What I learned from the anti-vaxxer on Facebook is that when they say "mask does not work" they mean "the government guideline does not work". Like you said it need to be cultural and people need to genuinely try to use mask correctly not just because its the rule.

nomel 4y ago

You're looking at tribalism. In my life, COVID has easily been the best example of how tribalistic people are, and how that tribalism just completely stamps out logical thought, in otherwise smart people. I think the crazy picture of Joe Rogan is enough to indicate that this is probably not a piece with any sort of depth or nuance.

zactato 4y ago

Science is a relatively slow process, it takes a long time to understand how diseases work. Virtually every other disease has been studied for years or decades before a properly understanding how it spreads, how it grows within the body, how it manifests, how it can be defeated. Influenza has existed for over a hundred years and we're still learning more about it. The CDC needed to make decisions quickly at the beginning of the pandemic before anything about the disease was really understood. As they learned more information they changed those decisions. Did they do all of this perfectly? No. Did they fuck up at moments? Sure. Have aspects of their response been way too political? Yes. They're human and not perfect. They were working under insane conditions and made some mistakes. At the same time that we were learning about the disease, it was also changing. The strains that are common now behave differently than the strains that existed two years ago. This also complicates the process. You are criticizing the CDC for "flip-flopping" when they've simply responded to new information and a changing disease. Do you expect them to have known all they know now on Day 1 of the disease? Do you expect them to have said zero for several years until everything was 100% known? Whats your fucking point here?

aaron695 4y ago
nomel 4y ago
The problem is that the CDC presented things as fact, without any communication of uncertainty, so their change in stance was perceived as a change is stance, rather than some smooth approach to an "understanding". This was made worse by the fact that health experts (or anyone) who voiced these uncertainties, concerns, or pointed out the flaws/needed changes were silenced and bullied on social media, even if time proved that they were right. The tribalism was/is insane. The communication from the US government was terrible, especially compared to other countries who's health leaders don't assume their populace are idiots.
dreaminvm 4y ago
My point is that they've received basically no criticism for many of their mistakes. Saying vaccines will prevent the spread of COVID-19 makes no sense if they've not proven so ever, why make a massive policy decision which likely contributed to further spread (many restrictions were lifted due to their announcement, only to be put back later). Or as another example, they continued to require masks for children even as many countries removed that requirement long ago with data showing that it was safe to do so. Or that they mistakenly counted non-Covid related deaths (72k deaths) in their mortality data. I call out flip-flopping as it reduces what little confidence the public has in their policy decisions and further empowers the fringe in discussions of ineffective treatments. No one is saying they should know on Day 1 of anything. That's a nonsense expectation. I do however expect them to communicate better and to educate the public on the evolution of the disease rather than rushing to any decisions until the data is clear.

dbbk 4y ago

I don't think anyone is really against trying alternative treatements... if anything if we had one that worked that would be ideal, as it's already mass produced and the infrastructure already exists. The problem is people latched onto the idea of Ivermectin being beneficial, when the studies did not show that. So it was just fantasy. And people inevitably died because they thought they knew better than real doctors and decided to treat themselves with it.

timcavel 4y ago

computer23 4y ago

There are well-established guidelines for ethically testing and prescribing experimental drugs. If the individuals who have been peddling ivermectin and vitamin cocktails had instead encouraged enrollment in randomized controlled trials overseen by Institutional Review Boards to protect the rights and safety of human subjects, we would have quickly generated high quality data to determine safety and efficacy of ivermectin for COVID. The haphazard global distribution of ivermectin meant that no meaningful data could be generated to determine if it worked. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonbatemanhouse/2017/12/20/what-you-need-to-know-about-clinical-trials-before-you-need-one/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonbatemanhouse/2017/12/20/w... The rest of your comments are distracting "whataboutisms" but to clarify: • Airplanes may have good air circulation while the plane is flying but prior to take off and in airports, air circulation isn't so good. • People were buying horse dewormer based on false claims about ivermectin. This is fact. • As we learned more about the virus (e.g. the frequency of spread by asymptomatic individuals) and as the virus mutated (e.g. to be more infectious and not as "on target" for the vaccines), recommendations have changed.

dreaminvm 4y ago
I agree with your points on ethically testing and prescribing experimental drugs. The intent of my comment is to highlight the media's focus on one side of wrong decisions which only further divides the public. * For airplanes, I am pointing out the requirement for masking currently even when masking is not required anywhere in California/New York (2 of the most restrictive states for COVID throughout the pandemic) for indoor. It's pure theatre to have people show up to the airport never wearing a mask and then putting it on (ineffectively no less) and then taking it off immediately when they leave the airport. * Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic which has been prescribed 3.7 billion times (and won a nobel prize). Does it help with Covid? Current data seems to imply it does not. My callout is on the media calling its a horse dewormer (which while true is meant to mislead). * On virus mutations, see my comment on flip-flopping.

coolso 4y ago

> Not defending Ivermectin, but what do people have against trying alternative therapeutics for COVID? You have to look at everything surrounding COVID in context. The most important context was that prior to COVID, Trump was obviously going to be re-elected. None of the world-ending catastrophes that everyone said would happen under him, did, in fact we got a lot of good out of his administration. The economy was great, taxes were low, gas prices were low, etc. But then COVID happened, and finally, the opposition saw their opening. If they had any hope of Trump losing reelection, this was their only chance, and so every single day they did whatever they could to blame everything on Trump and only Trump, and did whatever they could to come to the defense of any organization or entity that Trump assigned blame to (WHO, China, etc.), and they also did whatever they could to trash anything that looked like it might help reduce the effects of the pandemic prior to the election. People on a particular side of the aisle were "TERRIFIED" that the vaccine would be released before the election. You'll recall, for example, that many of the people and organizations that shame everyone as "anti-vaxxers" for being wary of the vaccine, did that very same thing just prior to the election, spreading FUD (including Biden himself): https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccin... Ivermectin, a life-saving drug WHO-listed essential drug (found ineffective for most for COVID) that has a side-effect profile close to that of the antibiotics we as a country receive so many prescriptions of like candy, was referred to as "horse paste", and do you know why some idiots were resorting to getting the animal kind instead of the human kind? Because the media and the establishment treated this relatively harmless drug as something evil and so people who are inclined to believe everything is a conspiracy, had that further reinforced in their minds, so they did whatever they could to seek something that the establishment was actively trying to keep from them.

icedistilled 4y ago
>in fact we got a lot of good out of his administration. The economy was great, taxes were low, gas prices were low This a mixture of the state of the country Obama left him with and things that presidents and their admin don't have much influence over. Do you actually think Biden increased gas prices as if the effects of the pandemic and war (that trump likely helped cause by his deference to putin and hostility towards nato) aren't the actual causes? Trump threw out the pandemic playbook. Trump and the GOP's raised taxes on a substantial number of middle class and lower income people. Some of it was immediately and some of those increases were left as timebombs. I really could go on and on, but that will turn in to arguing on the internet. But that statement on how "good" trump's admin suggests extremely rose colored glasses on what actually went on.

IE6 4y ago

> Not defending Ivermectin, but what do people have against trying alternative therapeutics for COVID? I don't think this is actually a widespread problem and I don't believe that the majority of the people who are "against" Ivermectin are somehow also against trying alternative therapeutics... > CNN calling Ivermectin a horse dewormer I'm actually curious because this is a very well coordinated and repeated talking point of the right: what does CNN calling Ivermectin a horse dewormer mean to you and why is that so significant?

dreaminvm 4y ago
Highlighting the deception from the media. It would be like calling Aspirin a dog pain reliever or the Hepatitis vaccine a dog vaccine which while true is meant to mislead and likely framed the people trying alternative therapeutics like Ivermectin as insane. Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic which has been prescribed 3.7 billion times to people. Does it help with Covid? Current data seems to imply it does not.