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This Twitter thread hits the nail on the head. Imagine this process in California, where just working with PG&E to get utilities to the site may be a six figure
by YATA0 4y ago
This Twitter thread hits the nail on the head. Imagine this process in California, where just working with PG&E to get utilities to the site may be a six figure adventure, then another $40-60k for an electrician to wire the house. That could be close to $200k for electrical alone. This could be for a 1,000 square foot shed in Oakland, not somewhere around Malibu.
Add on the planning costs that the Twitter author goes on about, and your "affordable housing" is now near a million dollars. Is that really affordable?
- virtualwhys 4y ago> $40-60k for an electrician to wire the house. Think I'm in the wrong profession, what on earth does a Californian electrician make per year? At that rate I'd guess 500K+
- sgc 4y agoAround here they make about $150 an hour if they are contractors and work for themselves. So I would guess 80-100 for an electrician with 5+ years experience. About the same as most other semi-specialized trades.
- icelancer 4y ago$150/hour for a reliable and qualified electrician is a hell of a deal.
- giantg2 4y agoMany of the trades can make good money. Especially in areas that forbid owners to work on their own homes, even to replace an existing water heater (like NYC).
- vasco 4y agoHow would they know?
- tehlike 4y agoThey don't, but the moment you need real permits or need to refi etc they might ask for and enforce permits.
- gorbachev 4y agoTry buying or selling a house with unlicensed "modifications". It's an interesting exercise.
- sokoloff 4y agoAround here, if you don’t want to buy a house with un-permitted work, it’s no problem; there’s another buyer standing right behind you (often literally) who will.
- tehlike 4y agoThis is true but like i said when you need real permit etc this becomes tricky.
- giantg2 4y agoVery true. Depending on the modifications (like electrical), insurance could deny claims if they find unapproved/unpermitted work, even if it wasn't the cause, or the cause was unknown (depends on the policy).
- giantg2 4y agoWell, I think NYC made it law that hardware stores can only sell hot water heaters to licensed contractors. Not sure what other restrictions there are.
- hedora 4y agoIt takes an absurd number of hours to wire a house in California because the code is insane. That multiplies with high labor costs. Wiring a simple / small home, it takes well over four electrician months, minimum. Also, they have to pay licensing fees to the state, insurance premiums, etc, etc. Of course, the $40-60K also includes materials, which are a small percentage of the cost, but non-zero.
- catmanjan 4y agoThis is very surprising, in Australia I understand we have strict codes and I have never heard of it taking this long What exactly does the electrician spend all that time doing in California?
- antattack 4y agoSome state codes require use of galvanized steel piping (called EMT) for electrical conduit.
- Schroedingersat 4y agoOn an unclad, sanely sized house that's still like two days for the apprentice to install and pull cable, tops. $200 for the poor sod doing the work, $80p for his boss, and $2k for the company is still nowhere near 2 electrician months of labour.
- CapitalistCartr 4y agoEvery state requires pipe in many places, industrial, most commercial, large multi-unit buldings. The only place in the USA that I know requires pipe in resi is Chicago.
- pkaye 4y agoPersonally I think they are exaggerating how long the actual work takes. However trades are in high demand due to significant remodels and commercial construction so it might long time to find someone.
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- spaetzleesser 4y agoNot the electrician. The company owner.
- cagenut 4y agofor single family detached, no but that was never actually an economically viable product, so it makes sense to simply not expect it to work. for four to sixteen units that seems like it could be fine?
- YATA0 4y ago>but that was never actually an economically viable product It is the most economically viable product, which is why they dominate. >for four to sixteen units that seems like it could be fine? Those costs have also skyrocketed because now you have additional requirements like fire, egress, additional structural when going over two stories, etc. It's why most new apartments are "luxury" apartments. The costs have grown so out of control that the only way to break even is to make them outrageously priced.
- occz 4y ago>It is the most economically viable product, which is why they dominate. Only because they are the only thing that most zoning codes in the U.S permit to build. With U.S zoning being what it is, there's literally no honest discussion to be made on what type of housing is most economically viable.
- nemo44x 4y agoI think it’s quite viable if we look back to when it started. Back then hones we’re 800sq feet. Even 100 years ago an average home was about there. Today they are 2400 so feet on average. So if we go back to smaller places it’s viable. The only reason it’s not viable in places like Europe is because there are so many people in a small space. In the USA we could get adequate population density with 1200 sq foot homes and 1/8 acre plots.
- kaibee 4y agoThe land has gotten so expensive that the kind of people who can afford a SFH lot for their personal use, not to become a duplex or quadplex or whatever, can also afford to build a 2400 sqft house without it really mattering. Now a quadplex in the same spot could split that lot cost across 4 families.
- vbezhenar 4y agoI can build the entire house with everything included. And not from those pesky woodsticks, but from a real concrete and bricks. For around $40k. Something in US is seriously wrong. I understand that labour cost difference is huge, but it can’t be the only factor.
- YATA0 4y agoWhere do you live? $40k in concrete will get you your concrete driveway in California.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- zip1234 4y ago$4000 for the concrete and $36000 for everything else.
- pas 4y agoKazakhstan https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30804120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30804120
- bombcar 4y agoA cinder block in the US is almost $2 - let’s assume on discount you can get it for $1. Still expensive. Here’s the cheapest kit at Menards if you’d like to compare: 29551 - Tahoe Cabin Material List at Menards https://www.menards.com/main/p-1569392867885.htm https://www.menards.com/main/p-1569392867885.htm And that’s materials only. And would be considered quite small by US standards. But hey 11% rebate.
- unnouinceput 4y agoAnd that's why you pour the concrete directly into walls with rebars inside. Much stronger than cinder blocks and 10 times cheaper. But hey, nobody wants to actually do quality work, let's just fuck around with lego.