8 ms·

I think the main point is to know the limitations of the technology and to deploy it appropriately. For instance, I don't rely on old-school cruise control to

I think the main point is to know the limitations of the technology and to deploy it appropriately. For instance, I don't rely on old-school cruise control to stop for small children, either, even though I engage it in school zones. This isn't limited to "Tesla-tech". The same rules apply to ALL technology.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"I think the main point is to know the limitations of the technology and to deploy it appropriately" Where does Tesla provide a list of such limitations for it's customers, I am sure it would be extensively documented given that lives are at stake ? Or should I find out those limitations myself, potentially killing a few children in the process?
- hansendc 5y ago
  > Where does Tesla provide a list of such limitations for it's customers, One specific place is first sentence of the FSD Beta welcome email: "Full Self-Driving is in limited early access Beta and must be used with additional caution. It may do the wrong thing at the worst time, so you must always keep your hands on the wheel and pay extra attention to the road. Do not become complacent." That's been my experience with it. Right now, the beta doesn't reduce my workload, it increases it. When I want to "just drive", I turn the beta off. That said, Tesla can and should do more. They need to better frame the capabilities of the system, staring with the silly marketing names.
  - idop 5y ago
    > It may do the wrong thing at the worst time. So, basically, I need to somehow predict that FSD will do the wrong thing and react myself, _before_ the worst time, because the worst time is when it's already too late. Or, in other words, whereas any other car manufacturer has fallbacks for when the driver is not doing what they're supposed to, Tesla treats the driver as the fallback instead. I just don't understand what is this magic that is supposed to allow the driver to predict incorrect AI behavior.
    - hansendc 5y ago
      > So, basically, I need to somehow predict that FSD will do the wrong thing and react myself, _before_ the worst time, because the worst time is when it's already too late. Don't confuse prediction and anticipation. Prediction requires that you know what's going to happen. Anticipation is getting ready for something that might happen. Anticipation is a normal part of defensive driving every day, not prediction. Let's go back to defensive driving 101: defensive driving allows mistakes to be made. It allows bad things to occur and still recover from them safely. Bad things happen because of mistakes are made by humans in the car, humans outside of the car and also by the computer in the car. The change here is that you the computer is being given much more latitude to make mistakes. It does NOT grant the computer the ability to remove defensive margins from driving. If you drive (regardless of FSD) with no defensive driving margins, you immediately enter "too late" territory whenever a mistake is made.
      - idop 5y ago
        Definitely, and that's exactly why I claim this is not even close to FSD, and why I absolutely do not want this in my car. If I have to be on the wheel and ready to react at any point in time, then I'd rather be the one driving and that's it. I think regular "old" adaptive cruise control and lane assist are vastly superior to this. I am on the wheel and in charge for 99.9% of the time, as I should be regardless of FSD, and the technology saves me in the 0.1% when I am not. FSD will never be FSD without a complete redesign of infrastructure, which will not happen in our lifetime.
      - wonnage 5y ago
        What does FSD really give you, then? It doesn't reduce the mental toll of staying alert and anticipating the road. It's probably only safe to use on the highway. On the highway, it provides the same automated acceleration/braking you could get from radar-assisted cruise control you can find on any modern car. Like cruise control, it's probably a good idea not to rely on it to avoid large stationary obstacles like a turning freight truck. It does purport to control the steering wheel too, but you can't really trust it not to steer into highway medians either. They should just rename it to something boring like "camera-assisted cruise control" and remove the beta label so everyone can use it.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    That's really a legal disclaimer, a list of limitations has to be sspesific to be usefull: don't use beyong X temperature range, beyong X speed, below X visibility,etc.
- cbo100 5y ago
  Find them yourself by RTFM maybe? Tesla puts all the info you need in the owners manual, just like every other manufacturer with automated systems on their cars. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-8EA7EF10-7D27-42AC-A31A-96BCE5BC0A85.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-8EA7EF1... There are dozens of warnings throughout the manual explaining limitations and cautions around using the systems. Every other car I've owned with the same or similar systems has the same warnings littered throughout the manual.
Miner49er 5y ago
Why would you ever engage cruise control in school zones?
- lkxijlewlf 5y ago
  I live on a road with two schools zones about a mile apart. I have had people pass me in the morning in the school zone! People do.not.care. EDIT: Fixed "ppl" to "people".
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    This is a pet peeve of mine, but why use 'ppl' when you spell out every other word, and then spell out people in the end? Edit: Yes, ppl bugs me and there is no rational reason why. Emphasis on 'pet peeve'.
    - lkxijlewlf 5y ago
      Fixed it for you.
    - borski 5y ago
      Because typing on phones can be annoying and ppl is quicker than people. :) Or maybe they were texting and using FSD ;)
      - waste_monk 5y ago
        That's not really valid in the age of Swype-style keyboards. Less effort to do one swipe than multiple taps to hit individual letters for txt type. Also, if you text and drive I sincerely hope you hit a tree or something else solid that doesn't hurt the road traffic and pedestrians around you - alleged FSD or no, we don't have level 5 fully-autonomous cars yet and so not paying attention to the road is just as bad as drunk or drug driving.
        borski 5y ago
        Sure is valid. Not everyone likes the Swype style keyboards. The FSD part was a joke. :)
kllrnohj 5y ago
> I think the main point is to know the limitations of the technology and to deploy it appropriately. Such as, for example, by not calling it "autopilot" or "full self driving"?
- glennpratt 5y ago
  I'll give you FSD, but autopilot makes sense to me as someone familiar with aviation.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    How about "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." Tesla Marketing: 2016
    - glennpratt 5y ago
      Sounds like trash, but then that's not relevant to what I said.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        The important thing here is that for over half-a-decade, Tesla has been lying to its customers about its capabilities. When in actuality, Tesla will reliably crash into pedestrians and stationary firetrucks. To the point where people at other companies are confident to make live-demos of this at electronic shows. --------- Calling it "autopilot" or "fsd" isn't the problem. The problem is that Tesla actively lies about its capabilities to the public and its customers. It doesn't matter "how" they lie or exactly what weasel words they use. The issue is that they're liars. We can tell them to change their name or change their marketing strategy. But as long as they're liars, they'll just find a new set of weasel words to continue their lies.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      > Tesla Marketing: 2016 For reference, this same marketing video is still up on Tesla's site[1]. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...
snicker7 5y ago
People intuitively understand the capabilities of cruise control. Can the same be said if FSD?
- _ea1k 5y ago
  Given the crashes with cruise control in bad weather, I think the level of understanding is likely fairly similar.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I am not seeing the relation between cruise control and crashes in bad weather? If I bought something that says it can drive itself, then I expect I do not need to pay attention to the road because it can drive itself. Just like if my friend can drive themselves and I am a passenger, I can trust them to handle paying attention to the road. To go out of your way and call something "full" self driving only indicates that I should have zero qualms about trusting that I do not need to pay attention to the road.
    - drewzero1 5y ago
      I'm guessing the 'bad weather' comment is referring to the common belief[1], possibly exaggerated[2], that cruise control can be dangerous and cause crashes when the road is slippery. Not sure what's changed with newer traction control systems. I'd have to believe this has gotten even less likely but I don't know; my cars are too old to even have ABS. One of the anecdotes in the Jalopnik article mentions that the vehicle is a Town Car, which is significant because those are rear wheel drive and handle very differently from most cars on the road in slick conditions. I would certainly expect more issues with older RWD cars and trucks because they tend to fishtail and spin if the rear wheels are given power without traction. [1] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/wild-when-wet/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/wild-when-wet/ [2] https://jalopnik.com/lets-debunk-the-idea-that-its-not-safe-to-use-cruise-co-1836852765 https://jalopnik.com/lets-debunk-the-idea-that-its-not-safe-...

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"I think the main point is to know the limitations of the technology and to deploy it appropriately" Where does Tesla provide a list of such limitations for it's customers, I am sure it would be extensively documented given that lives are at stake ? Or should I find out those limitations myself, potentially killing a few children in the process?

hansendc 5y ago
> Where does Tesla provide a list of such limitations for it's customers, One specific place is first sentence of the FSD Beta welcome email: "Full Self-Driving is in limited early access Beta and must be used with additional caution. It may do the wrong thing at the worst time, so you must always keep your hands on the wheel and pay extra attention to the road. Do not become complacent." That's been my experience with it. Right now, the beta doesn't reduce my workload, it increases it. When I want to "just drive", I turn the beta off. That said, Tesla can and should do more. They need to better frame the capabilities of the system, staring with the silly marketing names.
- idop 5y ago
  > It may do the wrong thing at the worst time. So, basically, I need to somehow predict that FSD will do the wrong thing and react myself, _before_ the worst time, because the worst time is when it's already too late. Or, in other words, whereas any other car manufacturer has fallbacks for when the driver is not doing what they're supposed to, Tesla treats the driver as the fallback instead. I just don't understand what is this magic that is supposed to allow the driver to predict incorrect AI behavior.
  - hansendc 5y ago
    > So, basically, I need to somehow predict that FSD will do the wrong thing and react myself, _before_ the worst time, because the worst time is when it's already too late. Don't confuse prediction and anticipation. Prediction requires that you know what's going to happen. Anticipation is getting ready for something that might happen. Anticipation is a normal part of defensive driving every day, not prediction. Let's go back to defensive driving 101: defensive driving allows mistakes to be made. It allows bad things to occur and still recover from them safely. Bad things happen because of mistakes are made by humans in the car, humans outside of the car and also by the computer in the car. The change here is that you the computer is being given much more latitude to make mistakes. It does NOT grant the computer the ability to remove defensive margins from driving. If you drive (regardless of FSD) with no defensive driving margins, you immediately enter "too late" territory whenever a mistake is made.
    - idop 5y ago
      Definitely, and that's exactly why I claim this is not even close to FSD, and why I absolutely do not want this in my car. If I have to be on the wheel and ready to react at any point in time, then I'd rather be the one driving and that's it. I think regular "old" adaptive cruise control and lane assist are vastly superior to this. I am on the wheel and in charge for 99.9% of the time, as I should be regardless of FSD, and the technology saves me in the 0.1% when I am not. FSD will never be FSD without a complete redesign of infrastructure, which will not happen in our lifetime.
    - wonnage 5y ago
      What does FSD really give you, then? It doesn't reduce the mental toll of staying alert and anticipating the road. It's probably only safe to use on the highway. On the highway, it provides the same automated acceleration/braking you could get from radar-assisted cruise control you can find on any modern car. Like cruise control, it's probably a good idea not to rely on it to avoid large stationary obstacles like a turning freight truck. It does purport to control the steering wheel too, but you can't really trust it not to steer into highway medians either. They should just rename it to something boring like "camera-assisted cruise control" and remove the beta label so everyone can use it.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  That's really a legal disclaimer, a list of limitations has to be sspesific to be usefull: don't use beyong X temperature range, beyong X speed, below X visibility,etc.
cbo100 5y ago
Find them yourself by RTFM maybe? Tesla puts all the info you need in the owners manual, just like every other manufacturer with automated systems on their cars. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-8EA7EF10-7D27-42AC-A31A-96BCE5BC0A85.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-8EA7EF1... There are dozens of warnings throughout the manual explaining limitations and cautions around using the systems. Every other car I've owned with the same or similar systems has the same warnings littered throughout the manual.

Miner49er 5y ago

Why would you ever engage cruise control in school zones?

lkxijlewlf 5y ago
I live on a road with two schools zones about a mile apart. I have had people pass me in the morning in the school zone! People do.not.care. EDIT: Fixed "ppl" to "people".
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  This is a pet peeve of mine, but why use 'ppl' when you spell out every other word, and then spell out people in the end? Edit: Yes, ppl bugs me and there is no rational reason why. Emphasis on 'pet peeve'.
  - lkxijlewlf 5y ago
    Fixed it for you.
  - borski 5y ago
    Because typing on phones can be annoying and ppl is quicker than people. :) Or maybe they were texting and using FSD ;)
    - waste_monk 5y ago
      That's not really valid in the age of Swype-style keyboards. Less effort to do one swipe than multiple taps to hit individual letters for txt type. Also, if you text and drive I sincerely hope you hit a tree or something else solid that doesn't hurt the road traffic and pedestrians around you - alleged FSD or no, we don't have level 5 fully-autonomous cars yet and so not paying attention to the road is just as bad as drunk or drug driving.
      - borski 5y ago
        Sure is valid. Not everyone likes the Swype style keyboards. The FSD part was a joke. :)

kllrnohj 5y ago

> I think the main point is to know the limitations of the technology and to deploy it appropriately. Such as, for example, by not calling it "autopilot" or "full self driving"?

glennpratt 5y ago
I'll give you FSD, but autopilot makes sense to me as someone familiar with aviation.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  How about "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." Tesla Marketing: 2016
  - glennpratt 5y ago
    Sounds like trash, but then that's not relevant to what I said.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      The important thing here is that for over half-a-decade, Tesla has been lying to its customers about its capabilities. When in actuality, Tesla will reliably crash into pedestrians and stationary firetrucks. To the point where people at other companies are confident to make live-demos of this at electronic shows. --------- Calling it "autopilot" or "fsd" isn't the problem. The problem is that Tesla actively lies about its capabilities to the public and its customers. It doesn't matter "how" they lie or exactly what weasel words they use. The issue is that they're liars. We can tell them to change their name or change their marketing strategy. But as long as they're liars, they'll just find a new set of weasel words to continue their lies.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    > Tesla Marketing: 2016 For reference, this same marketing video is still up on Tesla's site[1]. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...

snicker7 5y ago

People intuitively understand the capabilities of cruise control. Can the same be said if FSD?

_ea1k 5y ago
Given the crashes with cruise control in bad weather, I think the level of understanding is likely fairly similar.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I am not seeing the relation between cruise control and crashes in bad weather? If I bought something that says it can drive itself, then I expect I do not need to pay attention to the road because it can drive itself. Just like if my friend can drive themselves and I am a passenger, I can trust them to handle paying attention to the road. To go out of your way and call something "full" self driving only indicates that I should have zero qualms about trusting that I do not need to pay attention to the road.
  - drewzero1 5y ago
    I'm guessing the 'bad weather' comment is referring to the common belief[1], possibly exaggerated[2], that cruise control can be dangerous and cause crashes when the road is slippery. Not sure what's changed with newer traction control systems. I'd have to believe this has gotten even less likely but I don't know; my cars are too old to even have ABS. One of the anecdotes in the Jalopnik article mentions that the vehicle is a Town Car, which is significant because those are rear wheel drive and handle very differently from most cars on the road in slick conditions. I would certainly expect more issues with older RWD cars and trucks because they tend to fishtail and spin if the rear wheels are given power without traction. [1] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/wild-when-wet/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/wild-when-wet/ [2] https://jalopnik.com/lets-debunk-the-idea-that-its-not-safe-to-use-cruise-co-1836852765 https://jalopnik.com/lets-debunk-the-idea-that-its-not-safe-...