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France's Bogdanoff Twins Die Days Apart
- boringg 5y agoDoes anyone know if they were liked by the public? I doubt they were much loved in the scientific community based on what I read in the wikipedia entry. Their history seems patchy per wikipedia. Also I am trying to understand their relevance / importance in the grand scheme. Why is this getting traction?
- peruvian 5y agoThey are memes.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y agoThey were used in crypto as a sort of bogeyman representation of the old guard financial world keeping down crypto. Locked in mortal combat with Sminem, the representation of the little guy trying to make it in the current world of extreme wealth inequality. See- https://youtube.com/watch?v=-5OeVSiisLU https://youtube.com/watch?v=-5OeVSiisLU
- smoldesu 5y agoLong before that, they were vilified on 4chan's /biz/ board for being a tongue-in-cheek representation of "old money", so to speak.
- williamdclt 5y agoI don't know much about them, but everybody I know makes fun of them and considers them to be funny-looking, mostly-inoffensive charlatans. That's just my social bubble, no idea about the wider public.
- rcoilliot 5y agoFrench here. Lately they weren't that much loved by the public and mostly mocked because of their weirdness but they were still pretty famous and respected by geeks because of their successful (and pretty influential) show about sci-fi back in the 80s. I guess they were still benifiting from that golden era of them, but the consensus is that they were freaky.
- hocuspocus 5y ago> respected by geeks I don't think that is true at all for "geeks" that witnessed first-hand[1] their manipulative and deceptive attempts at defending their PhDs and scientific papers in early 2000's. After that they doubled down on the intelligent design bullshit, used any opportunity to promote their books (fair enough), while attacking the few journalists that actually tried to expose the fraud. They should have sticked to sci-fi, but even in their early days they couldn't help but try to vulgarize proper science, even though they weren't really qualified. Good intentions don't make up for peddling pseudoscience, plagiarism, and the constant smoke and mirrors. And it seems they were also facing some pretty serious legal issues in their personal life. [1] https://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/Discussions/Sciences/topikunik-mystification-bogdanov-sujet_32919_1.htm https://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/Discussions/Sciences/topikunik...
- boringg 5y agoThanks two both of you for the comments - have a better understanding now of their relevance to the greater conversation. Add in their meme nature and I have the full story. Charlatans and pseudoscience are like moths to a flame. :(
- rcoilliot 5y agoYou are right. I should have specified they were still respected for their contribution to sci-fi in France, but scorned for all their scientific frauds.
- hocuspocus 5y agoTalking about sci-fi on mainstream French TV was indeed pretty novel in the 80s. And they also brought up real R&D topics and scientific research, I remember one episode of Temps X when they talk about Dennis Meadows' limits to growth. I was too young but I'm still not convinced their TV show didn't raise a few eyebrows back then too, since they didn't hesitate to invite crackpots and talk about stuff like telekinesis.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
- PopeUrbanX 5y ago[flagged]
- stevespang 5y ago
- mmmpop 5y agoI could have been on-board with your cynicism until the "good riddance" part. Aren't we ashamed that the climate is so divisive that people don't even trust life-saving vaccines? Plenty of the blame goes to people such as OP, really. Sush disdain.
- ahtihn 5y agoThe more high profile cases of antivax deaths due to covid the better. It will help public perception that the vaccine is useful and may convince skeptics. And for every antivax death, we get closer to 100% vaccination rate and finally get back to a normal life.
- kareemm 5y agoI get you're tired of the pandemic; we all are. But saying "the more antivax deaths the better" just isn't OK. Those are human beings with parents, kids, siblings, extended families, and co-worker who may have made huge positive contributions to their communities and society. Dehumanizing people isn't the answer. You can do better.
- kwantam 5y agoI'm not defending the prior poster's statement, but the first part of their statement specifically mentions high-profile anti-vax deaths. There are interpretations of that argument that have nothing to do with de-humanizing, but do raise legitimate ethical questions. For example, one might argue that a prominent anti-vaxxer's lies convincing many people not to get the vaccine is extremely harmful; meanwhile the injection of reality by way of that anti-vaxxer's death could reverse some of that harm; and therefore hoping for high-profile anti-vaxxers to die in a high-profile way from the disease whose vaccine they decry is an ethical act. Squinting a bit, we've just stumbled on something that looks a heck of a lot like a trolley problem! which of course is a famously difficult ethical dilemma with seemingly no good answer---or, at least, no one answer that satisfies everyone. Consequentialists might agree with the grandparent; deontologists would likely agree with you. The point is: your "shame on you" response is not really engaging with the grandparent's argument, and is presupposing a not-entirely-uncontroversial view of ethics. Again, I'm not claiming right or wrong. The issue is that a "shame on you" argument has the effect, intentional or not, of obscuring your assumptions about the world and demonizing those who disagree with you. So: perhaps you can do better, too?
- marcodiego 5y ago"Aged 72, the brothers had not been vaccinated against Covid-19. Their friends said they were convinced their healthy lifestyle would protect them and they were admitted to hospital in mid-December."
- ramesh31 5y agoHe bought?
- awrence 5y agoDOOMP EET
- lsalvatore 5y agocan I get a quick rundown of these guys?
- lolive 5y agoThey ran a TV show in the 80s about science fiction, and that aired The Twilight Zone. [All french geeks now in their 40s took that show right in their face] #love
- lolive 5y agoWith Metal Hurlant [known in the US as Heavy Metal] also being popular in France at that time, plus the arrival of first role playing games (both US ones and french ones), it was a high time for us, the geeks.
- diegocg 5y agoThey became a meme in the cryptocurrency world https://youtu.be/KV5QlSgq7lg https://youtu.be/KV5QlSgq7lg
- NikolaeVarius 5y agoRoughly half the article was a quick rundown of these guys
- happytoexplain 5y ago"Can I get a quick rundown" is a meme related to them.
- drcongo 5y agoThanks, I had no idea who they were so no idea about the meme either. Also, your username checks out.
- OscarCunningham 5y agohttps://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/bogdanoff/ https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/bogdanoff/
- guerby 5y agoTL;DR version not antivax but choose not to vax because feeling healthy at 72. "die of Covid" "the brothers had not been vaccinated against Covid-19." "Their friends said they were convinced their healthy lifestyle would protect them" "Asked why they had chosen not to have the Covid vaccines if they were not themselves anti-vaxxers, Luc Ferry said on Monday: "Like Igor, Grichka wasn't antivax, he was just antivax for himself. "They were both athletic, with not an inch of fat, and they thought the vaccine was more dangerous than the virus."" https://www.lamontagne.fr/paris-75000/actualites/covid-19-quelle-est-vraiment-la-part-des-non-vaccines-parmi-les-patients-decedes_14052485/ https://www.lamontagne.fr/paris-75000/actualites/covid-19-qu... From 31 may to 14 november 2021 a total of 2854 unvaccinated people died of COVID19 in France and 2179 died while having at least one shot of vaccine. About 77% of the population has at least one shot in France.
- rajin444 5y agoDo we know why some vaccinated people still die of Covid? That would probably help a lot in figuring out who will benefit from the vaccine.
- throwawaymanbot 5y ago[dead]
- CodeGlitch 5y agoBecause for your body to fight a virus, it needs to have a good working immune system. Some people lack that for various reasons. A vaccine helps in this case but it's not 100%. Being "fit" certainly helps your immune system. But as we see here, it doesn't make you invincible.
- karlkloss 5y agoI'm not someone who believes in conspiracy theories, but one could come to the conclusion, that this massive campaign against vaccinations, and the general downplaying of the pandemic is a conspiracy to get rid of dumb people.
- wombat-man 5y ago"Several friends told them to get themselves vaccinated but they felt because of their lifestyle and their [lack of] comorbidity, they weren't at risk of Covid." Imagine being over 70 thinking you aren't at risk. It's really a shame.
- Freak_NL 5y agoThere are likely many, many commentors on HN who have family members in that (somewhat open-ended) age bracket who insist that they are not at risk. Either because they don't trust vaccines, or feel perfectly healthy, or feel that 'it is just a flu'. I do (just the one thankfully, whose 'intuition' tells them that it will be quite alright, despite having frequent contacts with other people), and it's really not great knowing that there is very real risk of seeing them on the ICU at some point.
- wombat-man 5y agoAs time went on and the numbers showed that I would probably be fine if I caught it given my age and health. I started to worry a lot less about it. But I still got vaccinated. Can't really relate to this kind of thinking, and I hope your friend remains healthy.
- whimsicalism 5y agoWhat kind of thinking? The one where you worry for your elderly unvaxxed family member when fatality rates for the unvaxxed elderly remain quite high?
- wombat-man 5y agoOh I mean thinking that just because you aren't at risk you don't need the vaccine. I think the twins were mistaken of course, given their age. But for example, myself being younger and healthy I believe I'm also low risk. But I am still relieved to be vaccinated. I know people who still have breathing issues because they caught it and it continues to impact them months after recovering from the virus itself.
- dmos62 5y agoPerhaps notably, they died of the coronavirus and had not been vaccinated.
- neilwilson 5y agoMore notable is actuarial data that shows that all cause mortality remains stubbornly elevated. Actuaries study death for a living and they need to get it right or the life insurance companies they work for go bust. What the data suggests is that in aggregate we're largely moving death around. From who to whom is the question.
- whimsicalism 5y agoExcess mortality stats show this to be obviously false
- flipbrad 5y agoWith a large population of unvaccinated people, and the virus affecting record numbers of people, what did you really expect to happen to all cause mortality??
- throwaway97345 5y ago"Indiana life insurance CEO says deaths are up 40% among people ages 18-64" That's not the old cohort that typically dies from Covid anymore. https://www.thecentersquare.com/indiana/indiana-life-insurance-ceo-says-deaths-are-up-40-among-people-ages-18-64/article_71473b12-6b1e-11ec-8641-5b2c06725e2c.html https://www.thecentersquare.com/indiana/indiana-life-insuran...
- foo_barrio 5y agoIsn't excess mortality the aggregate? That was way up in 2020 (in the US at least) no? How is this moving death around?
- illys 5y agoI am not in the figures but I understand "moving death around" this way: If you do not properly hospitalize serious Covid patients, you get more Covid death... If you properly treat them, you postpone the treatment of other sicknesses and increase death count in another population. Then you keep an excess mortality that just moves around.
- sebow 5y ago[dead]
- reacweb 5y agoI am French, I was interested in the brothers when there was the controversy. Their "phd" was a translation error in their bio. To silence the controversy, they decided to actually pass a phd. Neither brother claimed to be a genius, but while they have many other activities, they passed their phd with work similar to an average student. They deserve their phd. Their books are generally intended to popularize the scientific work of real researchers. They are well written. Their public appearances on TV are not without humor and self-mockery. They have deserved the sympathy of many french people.
- Freak_NL 5y agoAnother commenter posted this link about their academic endeavours: https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/bogdanoff/ https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/bogdanoff/ If this summary is correct, they seem to have deserved their PhD in the sense that they managed to bluff their way through it. A bit like getting the gold medal for a marathon as a consolation price when you've managed to do just 10 metres of it (on a unicycle, for reasons unclear to anyone observing).
- VHRanger 5y agoTheir PhD are absolutely not "work similar to an average [phd] student" It was utter nonsense, and a quick read of any page in any of the papers supporting their PhD thesis from someone with working knowledge of the area will show it to be word salads. Others linked to John Baez's analysis of the case, which stands correct 20 years later.
- reacweb 5y agomany student work is also "word salad".
- hocuspocus 5y agoWhat you claim is truly insulting to PhD students in hard science, especially in a country like France where academia is underfunded. Universities don't hand out PhDs to just anyone who can spare a few years writing non-sensical papers for free. Try to get into a half-decent MSc program, let alone doctoral school, without the relevant undergrad degree. If you aren't TV famous, good luck with that.
- hamiltonians 5y agodump it!!!
- LatteLazy 5y agoAt the risk of being flippant, is this any more than "Crazy people die of preventable disease"?
- pvaldes 5y agoTheir faces had been butchered and begging for attention. Exactly the same that Jocelyn Wildenstein did to herself. I always think that there must be a component of drug addiction in people that undergoes so much extreme transformations, and still go back for more. Maybe Painkillers applied in those surgeries have something to do with that. Is a trap for rich people affected from personal insecurities
- lr1970 5y agoI think that Bogdanoff twins invented a time-machine, traveled to 2021 and used GPT-3 to generate their Ph.D. theses with correct Quantum Field Theory jargon but nonsensical otherwise :-) </joke attempt>