7 ms·

The modern "progressive" thought-process is to feel guilty about having a good education. I went to private school in the UK and the only thing I feel is infin

The modern "progressive" thought-process is to feel guilty about having a good education. I went to private school in the UK and the only thing I feel is infinite gratitude to my parents for forking-out the money to send me there (they were not rich, they were both teachers).

joebiden2024 5y ago
You can get a good education at public institutions lol. I’ve only gone to public schools.
darkwater 5y ago
- wiseowise 5y ago
  Who cares? You can only be proud of your achievements if you were born the bottom of the bottoms?
- marcellus23 5y ago
  It’s also not his fault at all.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Nobody said it was "his fault" and that is obviously not the point of the acknowledgement starting the post.
    - refurb 5y ago
      So you agree he shouldn’t feel guilty.
      - hhmc 5y ago
        Sure, but thinking privilege is equatable to guilt is missing the point.
        marcellus23 5y ago
        I don’t think anyone said that. Lots of people _do_ think you should feel guilt for privilege. Pretending those people don’t exist isn’t helping the progressive movement. It’s important for progressives to acknowledge and counter the people who wave the progressive flag but espouse the opposite of progressive ideals.
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        I disagree. I see vastly more people claiming that privilege acknowledgement is tied in with guilt who oppose the notion of "privilege" than I see "lots of people" espousing the notion of privilege guilt who actually think we should talk about privilege. I don't personally believe in reparations as commonly framed, but saying that reparations ought to be paid is also not the same thing as saying people should feel guilty for actions they didn't take. > It’s important for progressives to acknowledge and counter the people who wave the progressive flag but espouse the opposite of progressive ideals. I think this can be taken too far. Disavowal can be important at times, but I find there is often a trend among the Right to highlight random views held by an extremely small minority of people (ie. a single tweeting American among 315 million Americans) and demand a disavowal of that rhetoric. I think this is in bad faith. This comment thread, in my view, is emblematic of this in that simply by using the word "privilege" we are now being asked to disavow something that some nebulous "lots of people" attach to that word, even though the word was clearly not being used in that context here.
        marcellus23 5y ago
        Frankly, it’s not a strawman. Look on twitter and you’ll find plenty of evidence of that kind of thinking. > but I find there is often a trend among the Right to highlight random views held by an extremely small minority of people (ie. a single tweeting American among 315 million Americans) and demand a disavowal of that rhetoric. I think this is in bad faith. Agreed. Where I disagree is that the left doesn’t do this exact same thing, or that these views are held by “a single tweet” and not, say, entire online communities. For the record, I generally agree with you, but to the same extent that avowal can go too far, it is very easy to go too far in assuming all ridiculous positions on our side are strawmen. A lot of people do think that way. Nothing wrong with acknowledging privilege — but you don’t need to feel personally guilty over things out of your control like your inherited wealth or your skin color. I think we can all agree on that.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        Guilty? No. Lucky? Yes. I think the point of privilege discourse is to undermine the notion of moral "desert," not to encourage guilt over something beyond your control.
- solveit 5y ago
  Yes yes, in the end everyone's success can be distilled down to luck or environment (which we were born into so also luck) or inborn qualities (which are also luck). Merit does not exist and everything is luck. Or we could notice that merit is still a useful concept, that good decisionmaking is a skill regardless of whether everyone is in a position to use it, and that the previous poster's parents made decisions that were highly beneficial to their child, above and beyond what other parents in comparable situations might have, and that the poster is quite right to be thankful for that. Which funnily enough is the only opinion they voiced, so it's rather a mystery what your needlessly nasty comment is replying to.
malnourish 5y ago
Where are people asked to feel guilty specifically about the fact they received a good education?
- cpursley 5y ago
  For similar reasons they're supposed to feel guilty for being born into a particular race.
  - borski 5y ago
    You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege, and those aren’t the same. I feel privileged for having gone to MIT, and acknowledge that privilege. I feel privileged for having grown up Jewish and white-appearing, and acknowledge that. I feel guilty for neither, and acknowledging that particular privilege takes nothing away from how hard I worked anyway. The son of two very poor Russian Jewish immigrants, I worked extremely hard to get to where I am. I also feel privileged for growing up in a loving and non-abusive family. Lots of people don’t have those things, and I’m thankful I did. That’s not guilt.
    - notreallyserio 5y ago
      > You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege, and those aren’t the same. This is one of those fundamental misunderstandings I see when discussing things with folks of a particular political persuasion. It's the same folks that belueve we shouldn't consider outcomes when evaluating processes. There's just something different about the way they think, I guess.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - anamax 5y ago
      > You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege, and those aren’t the same. When someone says "check your privilege", they're saying that you've done something wrong and should feel guilty.
onos 5y ago
There is a lot of encouragement of guilt in the USA today. In general, shouldn’t we embrace a value system that encourages good behavior? Eg honor those who do relatively well in life, given the circumstances they are born into? The immediate leap to discredit the success of others through assertion of privilege seems like it would discourage doing well. A better solution imho would be to celebrate success but to also encourage the successful to share their insights with others so as to spread the fortune - much as the author of this post has done.
- deagle50 5y ago
  Completely agree. This guilt culture is little more than an attempt to retain the benefits of the "privilege" vs sharing the spoils with the less fortunate.
- throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
  I agree with you in general but a useful question to ask is: How easy is this to do outside of tech (and other competitive industries like finance)? Competitive industries have high upside but inherently have limited opportunities at the top. You even see in this thread how people within tech but unable to pull FAANG salaries see this story as impossible. It's one viewpoint to think that it's possible for everyone to become skilled enough to work at a FAANG-like job (including passing the interview); probably correct so some degree. It's another (less rational) to think that every software engineer can work at FAANG-like jobs simultaneously; there just aren't enough positions. This gets even more dire outside of tech. What job are you going to switch to every 3 years that nets you a 30% salary increase? If that kind of opportunity was wide-spread, there would be a lot less income inequality (or at least more social mobility).
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  > A better solution imho would be to celebrate success but to also encourage the successful to share their insights with others so as to spread the fortune Ideally yes. Though IME often the advice isn't applicable, so beyond a few fundamentals they break down. For example I cannot un-have kids, and getting a master's or doing a startup on the side would basically require neglecting them for too long. (Or quiting my day job and burning through our savings.) Lifestyle advice like modest living or moving far away also requires buy in from an SO or a painful break up/divorce. It's also a risk since they may change their mind early in the plan. Or they may decide the outcome wasn't worth the sacrifice and want to (or you to) return to the grind.
yobbo 5y ago
> good education "Good" education alone is not a meaningful predictor of anything, in Europe at least. So the guilt is about receiving the correct credentials to be granted further access to jobs and opportunities. It seems in UK/USA, "good education" is used as a euphemism for "received privilege".
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Because everyone (or at least, like 40%) in Europe has what I consider to be a great education.
  - DarylZero 5y ago
    That's not even the same thing. "Education" is a code-word for credentials. Education is "good" insofar as the credentials are exclusive. It's the pretense of the credentialing organizations to have a monopoly on education.
simpleguitar 5y ago
I disagree with everything you've said. The only difference between myself and my other friends (who also have advanced degrees from top universities in the bay area) is that I abandoned my field of study and jumped into tech. After 10 years, we have vastly different financial outcomes now. A lot of hard working, well educated, dedicated people struggle financially around here, because they happened to not choose tech. Add in the teachers and other under-appreciated careers, I do feel guilty that I should have so much, and they so little.
- jackcosgrove 5y ago
  Part of working smart rather than working hard is seeing the salary signals the market is sending and responding to them strategically. This is worth more than mastering a skill that is saturated with competition relative to demand. It took me a long time to accept this as I was wedded to the idea that hard work and skill alone should be well compensated. But that hard work and skill needs to be pointed in a good direction in the first place.
  - simpleguitar 5y ago
    My grief (and grieving) is not with this. If you had an advanced degree in math or physics, hedge funds in NYC was always an option to maximize your talent in exchange for money. But one also had an option to choose something different and still make an upper middle class living. It seems these days, only the finance/tech offer such living. NOT choosing tech is choosing barely middle class living, and everyone else is delegated to hand-to-mouth living.
    - deagle50 5y ago
      Where I live (DC) most people are not in tech and they still have an upper middle class lifestyle working for the Federal government or a contractor (in a non-tech role). Nationally, purchasing power has been declining for many years. Besides Fed Gov, Tech/finance are the probably the only sectors left with large work forces, great margins, a culture of rewarding talent (vs health care for example), AND rooted in the USA (vs manufacturing and heavy industry). These factors combine to create a super class of tech/finance labor.
ak217 5y ago
There is a difference between acknowledging privilege and feeling guilty. I got a fantastic education at two of the best public universities in the US, mostly funded by public money. Do I feel guilty about it? No. But I acknowledge that it was only possible because of policy choices made by Americans who came before me.
azth 5y ago
> The modern "progressive" thought-process is to feel guilty about having a good education. This is what happens when there is a lack of religion and belief in God. In Islam, we know we're going to be asked about the blessings that were bestowed on us, no matter how small, so it's always in the back of our mind that we should be grateful to God, and to use those blessings in the ways of good, not evil.
- cpursley 5y ago
  The atheists are downvoting you but I find it pretty interesting. Can you link to more info / verses about getting asked about blessings? I assume this is after dying and being asked by God. Sounds like a form of gratitude.
  - azth 5y ago
    Sure. * https://quran.com/102/8 https://quran.com/102/8 (the worldly pleasures include: health, wealth, free time, food and drink, safety, housing, etc.) * https://quran.com/90/8-18 https://quran.com/90/8-18 * https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:407 https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:407
totetsu 5y ago
Does "I acknowledge my privilege" = "I feel guilty" ? Seems like these are two unrelated sentiments..

joebiden2024 5y ago

You can get a good education at public institutions lol. I’ve only gone to public schools.

darkwater 5y ago

wiseowise 5y ago
Who cares? You can only be proud of your achievements if you were born the bottom of the bottoms?
marcellus23 5y ago
It’s also not his fault at all.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Nobody said it was "his fault" and that is obviously not the point of the acknowledgement starting the post.
  - refurb 5y ago
    So you agree he shouldn’t feel guilty.
    - hhmc 5y ago
      Sure, but thinking privilege is equatable to guilt is missing the point.
      - marcellus23 5y ago
        I don’t think anyone said that. Lots of people _do_ think you should feel guilt for privilege. Pretending those people don’t exist isn’t helping the progressive movement. It’s important for progressives to acknowledge and counter the people who wave the progressive flag but espouse the opposite of progressive ideals.
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        I disagree. I see vastly more people claiming that privilege acknowledgement is tied in with guilt who oppose the notion of "privilege" than I see "lots of people" espousing the notion of privilege guilt who actually think we should talk about privilege. I don't personally believe in reparations as commonly framed, but saying that reparations ought to be paid is also not the same thing as saying people should feel guilty for actions they didn't take. > It’s important for progressives to acknowledge and counter the people who wave the progressive flag but espouse the opposite of progressive ideals. I think this can be taken too far. Disavowal can be important at times, but I find there is often a trend among the Right to highlight random views held by an extremely small minority of people (ie. a single tweeting American among 315 million Americans) and demand a disavowal of that rhetoric. I think this is in bad faith. This comment thread, in my view, is emblematic of this in that simply by using the word "privilege" we are now being asked to disavow something that some nebulous "lots of people" attach to that word, even though the word was clearly not being used in that context here.
        marcellus23 5y ago
        Frankly, it’s not a strawman. Look on twitter and you’ll find plenty of evidence of that kind of thinking. > but I find there is often a trend among the Right to highlight random views held by an extremely small minority of people (ie. a single tweeting American among 315 million Americans) and demand a disavowal of that rhetoric. I think this is in bad faith. Agreed. Where I disagree is that the left doesn’t do this exact same thing, or that these views are held by “a single tweet” and not, say, entire online communities. For the record, I generally agree with you, but to the same extent that avowal can go too far, it is very easy to go too far in assuming all ridiculous positions on our side are strawmen. A lot of people do think that way. Nothing wrong with acknowledging privilege — but you don’t need to feel personally guilty over things out of your control like your inherited wealth or your skin color. I think we can all agree on that.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Guilty? No. Lucky? Yes. I think the point of privilege discourse is to undermine the notion of moral "desert," not to encourage guilt over something beyond your control.
solveit 5y ago
Yes yes, in the end everyone's success can be distilled down to luck or environment (which we were born into so also luck) or inborn qualities (which are also luck). Merit does not exist and everything is luck. Or we could notice that merit is still a useful concept, that good decisionmaking is a skill regardless of whether everyone is in a position to use it, and that the previous poster's parents made decisions that were highly beneficial to their child, above and beyond what other parents in comparable situations might have, and that the poster is quite right to be thankful for that. Which funnily enough is the only opinion they voiced, so it's rather a mystery what your needlessly nasty comment is replying to.

malnourish 5y ago

Where are people asked to feel guilty specifically about the fact they received a good education?

cpursley 5y ago
For similar reasons they're supposed to feel guilty for being born into a particular race.
- borski 5y ago
  You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege, and those aren’t the same. I feel privileged for having gone to MIT, and acknowledge that privilege. I feel privileged for having grown up Jewish and white-appearing, and acknowledge that. I feel guilty for neither, and acknowledging that particular privilege takes nothing away from how hard I worked anyway. The son of two very poor Russian Jewish immigrants, I worked extremely hard to get to where I am. I also feel privileged for growing up in a loving and non-abusive family. Lots of people don’t have those things, and I’m thankful I did. That’s not guilt.
  - notreallyserio 5y ago
    > You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege, and those aren’t the same. This is one of those fundamental misunderstandings I see when discussing things with folks of a particular political persuasion. It's the same folks that belueve we shouldn't consider outcomes when evaluating processes. There's just something different about the way they think, I guess.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - anamax 5y ago
    > You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege, and those aren’t the same. When someone says "check your privilege", they're saying that you've done something wrong and should feel guilty.

onos 5y ago

There is a lot of encouragement of guilt in the USA today. In general, shouldn’t we embrace a value system that encourages good behavior? Eg honor those who do relatively well in life, given the circumstances they are born into? The immediate leap to discredit the success of others through assertion of privilege seems like it would discourage doing well. A better solution imho would be to celebrate success but to also encourage the successful to share their insights with others so as to spread the fortune - much as the author of this post has done.

deagle50 5y ago
Completely agree. This guilt culture is little more than an attempt to retain the benefits of the "privilege" vs sharing the spoils with the less fortunate.
throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
I agree with you in general but a useful question to ask is: How easy is this to do outside of tech (and other competitive industries like finance)? Competitive industries have high upside but inherently have limited opportunities at the top. You even see in this thread how people within tech but unable to pull FAANG salaries see this story as impossible. It's one viewpoint to think that it's possible for everyone to become skilled enough to work at a FAANG-like job (including passing the interview); probably correct so some degree. It's another (less rational) to think that every software engineer can work at FAANG-like jobs simultaneously; there just aren't enough positions. This gets even more dire outside of tech. What job are you going to switch to every 3 years that nets you a 30% salary increase? If that kind of opportunity was wide-spread, there would be a lot less income inequality (or at least more social mobility).
paulryanrogers 5y ago
> A better solution imho would be to celebrate success but to also encourage the successful to share their insights with others so as to spread the fortune Ideally yes. Though IME often the advice isn't applicable, so beyond a few fundamentals they break down. For example I cannot un-have kids, and getting a master's or doing a startup on the side would basically require neglecting them for too long. (Or quiting my day job and burning through our savings.) Lifestyle advice like modest living or moving far away also requires buy in from an SO or a painful break up/divorce. It's also a risk since they may change their mind early in the plan. Or they may decide the outcome wasn't worth the sacrifice and want to (or you to) return to the grind.

yobbo 5y ago

> good education "Good" education alone is not a meaningful predictor of anything, in Europe at least. So the guilt is about receiving the correct credentials to be granted further access to jobs and opportunities. It seems in UK/USA, "good education" is used as a euphemism for "received privilege".

Aeolun 5y ago
Because everyone (or at least, like 40%) in Europe has what I consider to be a great education.
- DarylZero 5y ago
  That's not even the same thing. "Education" is a code-word for credentials. Education is "good" insofar as the credentials are exclusive. It's the pretense of the credentialing organizations to have a monopoly on education.

simpleguitar 5y ago

I disagree with everything you've said. The only difference between myself and my other friends (who also have advanced degrees from top universities in the bay area) is that I abandoned my field of study and jumped into tech. After 10 years, we have vastly different financial outcomes now. A lot of hard working, well educated, dedicated people struggle financially around here, because they happened to not choose tech. Add in the teachers and other under-appreciated careers, I do feel guilty that I should have so much, and they so little.

jackcosgrove 5y ago
Part of working smart rather than working hard is seeing the salary signals the market is sending and responding to them strategically. This is worth more than mastering a skill that is saturated with competition relative to demand. It took me a long time to accept this as I was wedded to the idea that hard work and skill alone should be well compensated. But that hard work and skill needs to be pointed in a good direction in the first place.
- simpleguitar 5y ago
  My grief (and grieving) is not with this. If you had an advanced degree in math or physics, hedge funds in NYC was always an option to maximize your talent in exchange for money. But one also had an option to choose something different and still make an upper middle class living. It seems these days, only the finance/tech offer such living. NOT choosing tech is choosing barely middle class living, and everyone else is delegated to hand-to-mouth living.
  - deagle50 5y ago
    Where I live (DC) most people are not in tech and they still have an upper middle class lifestyle working for the Federal government or a contractor (in a non-tech role). Nationally, purchasing power has been declining for many years. Besides Fed Gov, Tech/finance are the probably the only sectors left with large work forces, great margins, a culture of rewarding talent (vs health care for example), AND rooted in the USA (vs manufacturing and heavy industry). These factors combine to create a super class of tech/finance labor.

ak217 5y ago

There is a difference between acknowledging privilege and feeling guilty. I got a fantastic education at two of the best public universities in the US, mostly funded by public money. Do I feel guilty about it? No. But I acknowledge that it was only possible because of policy choices made by Americans who came before me.

azth 5y ago

> The modern "progressive" thought-process is to feel guilty about having a good education. This is what happens when there is a lack of religion and belief in God. In Islam, we know we're going to be asked about the blessings that were bestowed on us, no matter how small, so it's always in the back of our mind that we should be grateful to God, and to use those blessings in the ways of good, not evil.

cpursley 5y ago
The atheists are downvoting you but I find it pretty interesting. Can you link to more info / verses about getting asked about blessings? I assume this is after dying and being asked by God. Sounds like a form of gratitude.
- azth 5y ago
  Sure. * https://quran.com/102/8 https://quran.com/102/8 (the worldly pleasures include: health, wealth, free time, food and drink, safety, housing, etc.) * https://quran.com/90/8-18 https://quran.com/90/8-18 * https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:407 https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:407

totetsu 5y ago

Does "I acknowledge my privilege" = "I feel guilty" ? Seems like these are two unrelated sentiments..