8 ms·

Just dig out the numbers and realize this project is as expensive and uneconomic as every other of our +50year history record before.. And as if this was the o

by lb0 5y ago

Just dig out the numbers and realize this project is as expensive and uneconomic as every other of our +50year history record before.. And as if this was the only problem and it hadn't a lot of huge others, nuclear proponents will use this now as an example how nuclear is the way out of the climate crisis, and how comparing nuclear with renewables is wrong.. No, the best future would be neither fossil nor nuclear.

Ekaros 5y ago
I suppose freezing to death is an effective way to combat climate change...
- lb0 5y ago
  Now we bring another very specific for that location argument, while the general new consensus for here seems to be that is the ultimate solution to the climate crisis? The rhetoric strawman is also pretty cheap...
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    I haven't heard any reasonable immediately implementable numbers or solutions from the renewable proponents how affordably store enough energy to heat cold countries during months long winter.
    - olau 5y ago
      Storing heat is not difficult. You just heat up water and put it in an insulated tank. Either steel, or dig a hole in the ground and insulate that, with a floating insulated lid. Once it's big enough, the losses are so low that you can use it for seasonal storage, and with solar to heat it up in the summer, it's cheaper than natgas. At least where I live. Next year, I think, they're building a storage not far from where I live with 200.000 m³ capacity.
      - doikor 5y ago
        Nobody is using gas to heat anything in Finland. District heating is pretty much all some combination of waste heat from some other industrial process (including electricity production), coal, wood or peat. Some district heating scale heat pump and storage projects are in prototype phase but are meaningless % of actual usage. For individual house heating it is some combination of pure electric, heat pump, wood and oil. Gas in general is used very little for electricity here (only ~7% of total energy production) and gas cooking stuff is also relatively rare.
    - hannob 5y ago
      Do you have such numbers for a nuclear-based solution? Or do you only ask for solutions for the hard problems for the technologies you don't like?
      - Tuna-Fish 5y ago
        The technologies I like provide solutions to the hard problems. In Finland, the coldest weather is experienced when, during winter months, there is a persistent anticyclone parked overhead. Those can cover the entirety of the country, and inside them there is negligible wind. For example, on 8th of December it was -20°C, and the average output of wind power (nominal installed capacity ~2800MW) over the day was 330MW. The average output of grid-connected solar was <1MW (It's December in Finland, what did you expect?). Anticyclones can remain in place overhead for weeks. The value often used to calculate the cost of renewable+storage is 3h. This is a reasonable value for California, where solar production correlates well with use. If you built the grid in Finland based on that, we would just die when it gets cold. There are no renewables that work well in Finland. Water power is fully built out. Solar only produces power when we don't need it. Wind reliably does not provide power when we need it. Compared to renewable with enough storage, even with all it's overruns, OL3 is remarkably cheap.
        fulafel 5y ago
        But how much of the heating is, or needs to be, electric? Many current heating fuels are fossil and not great either, but they can be replaced with renewable fuels which solves storage vs renewable-produced electricity.
        Tuna-Fish 5y ago
        The most common heating system in new separate homes are heat pumps. They can function as air conditioners when it's hot and heaters when it's cold.
        fulafel 5y ago
        That does seem to head for electricity based heating. But a web search lead to some (admittedly 6 yrs old) graphs that have electricity being in in 3rd place after fuel based heating solutions by energy use: https://www.stat.fi/til/asen/2014/asen_2014_2015-11-20_tie_001_en.html https://www.stat.fi/til/asen/2014/asen_2014_2015-11-20_tie_0... - and hopefully those new houses are better insulated and use proportionally much less energy than the average housing stock, eg passive houses.
ekianjo 5y ago
> No, the best future would be neither fossil nor nuclear. nuclear is the highest density of energy available to mankind. Refusing to using it is kind of a huge missed opportunity.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Density doesn't matter very much outside of niche applications (e.g. submarines). It's not like very running out of space for power production. Cost is essentially the only metric that counts, and current nuclear technology is a bit on the expensive side. Maybe future reactor designs will drastically improve that, but with global warming we don't really have the time to wait for the R&D to be finished.

by lb0 5y ago

Ekaros 5y ago

I suppose freezing to death is an effective way to combat climate change...

lb0 5y ago
Now we bring another very specific for that location argument, while the general new consensus for here seems to be that is the ultimate solution to the climate crisis? The rhetoric strawman is also pretty cheap...
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I haven't heard any reasonable immediately implementable numbers or solutions from the renewable proponents how affordably store enough energy to heat cold countries during months long winter.
  - olau 5y ago
    Storing heat is not difficult. You just heat up water and put it in an insulated tank. Either steel, or dig a hole in the ground and insulate that, with a floating insulated lid. Once it's big enough, the losses are so low that you can use it for seasonal storage, and with solar to heat it up in the summer, it's cheaper than natgas. At least where I live. Next year, I think, they're building a storage not far from where I live with 200.000 m³ capacity.
    - doikor 5y ago
      Nobody is using gas to heat anything in Finland. District heating is pretty much all some combination of waste heat from some other industrial process (including electricity production), coal, wood or peat. Some district heating scale heat pump and storage projects are in prototype phase but are meaningless % of actual usage. For individual house heating it is some combination of pure electric, heat pump, wood and oil. Gas in general is used very little for electricity here (only ~7% of total energy production) and gas cooking stuff is also relatively rare.
  - hannob 5y ago
    Do you have such numbers for a nuclear-based solution? Or do you only ask for solutions for the hard problems for the technologies you don't like?
    - Tuna-Fish 5y ago
      The technologies I like provide solutions to the hard problems. In Finland, the coldest weather is experienced when, during winter months, there is a persistent anticyclone parked overhead. Those can cover the entirety of the country, and inside them there is negligible wind. For example, on 8th of December it was -20°C, and the average output of wind power (nominal installed capacity ~2800MW) over the day was 330MW. The average output of grid-connected solar was <1MW (It's December in Finland, what did you expect?). Anticyclones can remain in place overhead for weeks. The value often used to calculate the cost of renewable+storage is 3h. This is a reasonable value for California, where solar production correlates well with use. If you built the grid in Finland based on that, we would just die when it gets cold. There are no renewables that work well in Finland. Water power is fully built out. Solar only produces power when we don't need it. Wind reliably does not provide power when we need it. Compared to renewable with enough storage, even with all it's overruns, OL3 is remarkably cheap.
      - fulafel 5y ago
        But how much of the heating is, or needs to be, electric? Many current heating fuels are fossil and not great either, but they can be replaced with renewable fuels which solves storage vs renewable-produced electricity.
        Tuna-Fish 5y ago
        The most common heating system in new separate homes are heat pumps. They can function as air conditioners when it's hot and heaters when it's cold.
        fulafel 5y ago
        That does seem to head for electricity based heating. But a web search lead to some (admittedly 6 yrs old) graphs that have electricity being in in 3rd place after fuel based heating solutions by energy use: https://www.stat.fi/til/asen/2014/asen_2014_2015-11-20_tie_001_en.html https://www.stat.fi/til/asen/2014/asen_2014_2015-11-20_tie_0... - and hopefully those new houses are better insulated and use proportionally much less energy than the average housing stock, eg passive houses.

ekianjo 5y ago

> No, the best future would be neither fossil nor nuclear. nuclear is the highest density of energy available to mankind. Refusing to using it is kind of a huge missed opportunity.

adrianN 5y ago
Density doesn't matter very much outside of niche applications (e.g. submarines). It's not like very running out of space for power production. Cost is essentially the only metric that counts, and current nuclear technology is a bit on the expensive side. Maybe future reactor designs will drastically improve that, but with global warming we don't really have the time to wait for the R&D to be finished.