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I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”
- visaals 5y agoAfter the experience of meeting the Uber driver with an degree in actuarial science unable to apply his education it shattered my rose colored glasses about how education today is "The Great Equalizer" and the solution to all of our problems. I wanted to share these thoughts to discuss any cool ideas to bridge the gap between an education and effectively increasing opportunity for people as automation take away more and more low-skill jobs
- xwolfi 5y agoDon't be down just because you met one guy - who knows, maybe he cant work a week without insulting a client. Dont forget that when colleges didnt exist for everyone, say 200 years ago, most people were farmers. People are selective when it comes to timeframe, but it's just a mean regression - some periods reach peak, some get back lower, but all in all, we're trending up.
- mettamage 5y ago> The story that hit me the hardest was when I was chatting with an Uber driver This sentence implies that he didn’t meet “one guy”
- rayiner 5y agoFarming is arguably more complicated and requires more domain knowledge than most service jobs today.
- bluefirebrand 5y agoI don't even know if this is arguable. Most service jobs likely could be trained within a week at most. The most complicated part generally involves learning how to operate a point of sale system. Most of them could be operated by anyone, which is why self checkouts are a thing now. Farming on the other hand, especially modern farming, must take a lot longer to learn. There is a lot more to learn about your equipment alone, nevermind your crops, fertilizers, rotating fields, weather patterns, etc.
- gumby 5y agoMost farmers in wealthy countries today have Ag Ec degrees and are spreadsheet jockeys, whether they want to be (many do) or not.
- xwolfi 5y agoMy point was that there was no choice but to break your back to pay the Dime tax to your local church, but ofc I couldn't farm a potato if my life depended on it. Do you still miss the time where we were all farmers ?
- visaals 5y agoHe seemed like a genuinely nice dude who came from humble background who tried to improve his life situation but failed to do so, but at the same time you're right there could be something I'm missing from only having a ~20 minute chat with him. I agree that we're trending up which should feel AMAZING, but we're human so people's individual stories are what make us feel the most ;) Also at my high school the metric for our school's success was 99%+ of the graduating class going to college, and it felt like pure vanity because it meant more likely than not tons of people going into debt and getting nothing out of it for the sake of "education"
- xwolfi 5y agoWell I can give me my case then, I was raised in Normandy by a familly of small shop owners, went to the local college paid by taxes and now work in an investment bank in Hong Kong. I feel the problem is not that college is useless even if massively used, but maybe the american pricing of education is not aligned with expected returns, as you pointed out. It's far from mandatory in the countries I know to take a big loan for studies. Usually it's even more everyone else struggling to pay taxes for you to go.
- visaals 5y agoAgreed! This dilemma could be solved if college was much cheaper. Another commenter mentioned his annual tuition in Italy was about 2k euros which is unheard of here in the states... It's hard to have a negative ROI at that point.
- WhiteOwlEd 5y agoFounder of https://www.whiteowleducation.com https://www.whiteowleducation.com here. Undergrad dual major in Actuarial Science and Computer Science (with a MBA a long time after undergrad). Without additional context, my guess would be that the Uber driver maybe focused on applications of math and statistics to the insurance industry, but maybe focused more on passing actuarial exams and less on using programming in order to implement the models. Some of the actuarial exams cover finance, statistics, and math; it feels like the driver would be suited to do data science work. It would be interesting to hear more about where the driver is located and whether he/she was only targeting the insurance industry or if that person was looking at other jobs in analytics. EDIT: I started my business on the premise that universities teach a lot of "fundamentals", but that I don't believe higher education does not do as much as they should to teach the practical "day to day" skills (like data visualization or software version control / git) that are needed to get development work done. My thought is that a couple of online courses can quickly help to bridge the gap between theory and practice.
- hervature 5y agoI'm a little more skeptic than you. I don't think an Uber driver would admit that they failed the prerequisite exams required to enter the field. This is just the system working. Barring entry to those who have a degree but didn't actually learn the skills.
- visaals 5y agoI like the idea! Maybe it shouldn't be only college or nothing else but rather a mix of college + an industry specific bootcamp OR more co-op or shadowing programs that could bridge the gap. I think the solution might lie in teaching people the process of learning what they don't know on their own. Some people are just naturally "scrappy" or want something so bad they'll go out of their way to figure it out without connections. Maybe if we can deconstruct that into a course it could help people chart their own path rather than rely on other people to tell them what to do.
- ip26 5y agoI enjoyed your writing. It looks like you haven't written much since; life get in the way? Readership low? etc?
- visaals 5y agoWow that's the first time someone has said that (other than my immediate friends and family lol), so thank you! Mind if I ask what in particular you liked? I am interested about certain topics like education + improving access to opportunity + building cool stuff with tech + thinking about economic systems and incentives to drive success, but I also don't to come off as someone who just yells into the void about my opinions.
- ip26 5y agoRather than specific topic, I just enjoyed hearing your perspective, experience, and reflection on those things. Your 'writing voice' is relatable.
- Ologn 5y agoI have worked in IT for a long time, but have taken night and weekend college classes over the years. I took a CS 3xx class with mostly college seniors a few years ago. Most were CS majors. Once a bunch of us were outside talking, and I said something about software version control. The person I was talking to said "what's that?" I asked the others if they knew what software version control was. None knew. I said, "you know, like git". None of them knew what git was. Some of them were months from graduating and looking for a job as a programmer.
- sokoloff 5y agoIs university meant to be vocational training or learning the unchanging fundamentals and how to learn new things in the field? I think it serves a better purpose to teach the underlying fundamentals and not to do vocational training. I don't think it's a serious flaw that you can graduate from a top university with a CS degree without ever having written SQL, react, or used revision control. To me, those are vocational topics and can be learned on the job or in [paid] internships.
- rjsw 5y agoIf I was teaching CS then I would ask students to use VCS so that I could see the stages they had gone through to get the submitted solution. No different from expecting to see workings for maths homework.
- jimnotgym 5y agoYou may be right, but then shouldn't the standard route for most developers be vocational rather than academic? How many developers do we need in the workforce with this academic background?
- stnikolauswagne 5y agoGiven how many different technologies/languages/frameworks an average developer has to learn over his career isn‘t a solid background in the fundamentals worth more than 3 years intense focus on one such set? That‘s not to say that going through uni without having heard of git is the sign of a good program, I don‘t consider my program to be all that great but at least I had to go through two labs that required us to build software from scratch using git or svn.
- yardie 5y agoI've never seen companies work so hard to keep applicants away as much as they do today. Boomers are retiring, millenials are looking to fill those roles, X and Z are barely a rounding error (sorry to say). And yet the job descriptions could fill a journal going on about company culture, requirements, ideal candidate, etc. So when a job posting goes up that requires a college degree or equivalent experience you soon learn they really want the later. And if you could get experience without the expensive time wasting degree then what was the point?
- RivieraKid 5y agoA hugely important factors behind getting a job are: being likeable, looking good, not being weird, having a good sense of humor, etc. If you are in the bottom, say, 10% in these factors, employers will pick other candidates. And obviously, they won't tell you why.
- Veen 5y agoSadly this is true. I've had conversations with very smart people who can't find a job. They often attribute it to some hiring shortcoming or bias, and sometimes that's the case. But for a couple of these people the reason was obvious: they were not "presentable" and didn't have a personality that would enable them to function well in a team, i.e. they didn't dress properly, didn't look after their personal hygiene, and were quite unpleasant to talk to.
- anticristi 5y agoReminds me of my wife. :) After her PhD, she was writing cover letters that were screaming "I hate the recruitment process". One day, something clicked. Her next cover letter read like the first chapter in her bibliography. And one month later, she had too much work. :)
- WhisperingShiba 5y agoI for one, will never kiss the corporate ring
- kcplate 5y agoA nobel attitude but generally not one that persists past 30 or much after the first kid is born.
- anticristi 5y agoOr when the housing market hits you with the hammer of reality and reduces your whole "personality" to a number. :(
- twofornone 5y agoCollege was once a signal of competence. That cannot be true when you push half the population through the system; the normal distribution is still the same. Doubly so given the commodification of education, which creates perverse incentives for phenomena like grade inflation, further reducing the value of a degree as a signal. The first assumption that needs to change in order to revert the status of the college degree is the well meaning but false idea that competence can be taught to anyone. It gives people a false sense of optimism which frequently results in angst, debt, and wasted years.
- Foobar8568 5y agoBecause the required level is shit. And it has been downhill since the implementation of modern math and the rejection of math in the modern era or elitist path at school. We see it everywhere and especially in France or Switzerland. 10 years old native kids who can't read fluently. 15 years old who would write 1/2+1/3=2/5. They will keep this level of skills through the end of high school and master degree thanks to grade inflation and/or curve notation. Public school is at at least 2 levels if not more. Elite will remain in their own world. Rich will just pour money on their kids education, middle class and the poor are fucked. In France, most 18 years old would fail the brevet (end of middle school degree) as it was given in 1950s/60s. All the exams are pure jokes, and we see it in international education survey (PISA or even better TIMMS, level are dropping beside for the top 5%)
- laurent92 5y agoKids up to 11 years old in France are graded in colors, not numbers or A-F grading. Also, baccalaureat now includes has a “Grand oral”, an standup exam where women succeed much better, where presentation matters way more than depth, and where positive discrimination can take place without leaving a trail.
- graecea 5y agoOn the other hand most people in the 50/60s would also fail the brevet (or baccalaureat for that matter). I can't speak for the math level but I do know that school in the 60s required you to learn every single prefecture and chef-lieu by heart in geography classes, and the name of every single bone and organ in biology classes. Sometimes modern reforms aren't all that bad.
- itwrangler 5y agoThis thread (the HN comments) is quite interesting, as opposed to the article which says pretty much nothing and is an email harvesting exercise.. If you're going make a statement such as the title (particularly prefixed with I) then you better say something about your own experience and why you believe your 'title proposition' is true.. if not, and you're not just 'fishing' (for hits and/or email addresses), why bother?
- visaals 5y agohey, author here thanks for the valid feedback -- I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do with my blog and definitely got carried away with SEO/Growth Marketing tips I've incorporated towards the end of the article. I'm not sure whether to go down mtlynch.io 's path of being a solopreneur or Daniel Vasello's deconstructing his career in SWE or a more pure scott aaronson or star slate codex blog. I'll change it to something less 'fishing' and rather more open if people want be notified of posts. In retrospect, I'd rather just share my stories, guiding principles, and tacit knowledge I've developed than try to sell a course or a guide at the moment With regards to the title, I hope the story I shared about the uber driver and my experience with the mismatch between my degree and what I had to learn on my own to become employable speaks to why I believe the title is true. I'll consider changing my essay's point of view from 3rd person-ish -- but again I'm still trying to find my voice so it's a work in progress thanks for reading! I thought the discussion here was pretty cool too
- hardwaregeek 5y agoThis is why I think college should be saved for the adults. Because, sorry, this is a pretty basic lesson in adulthood. Competence is only a small part of getting hired. Contacts and charisma are a huge huge factor. If you don't understand this, you should probably take a year or two to work, learn a bit about the world, then go to college. I've met so many students who have been judged purely on their grades, who then encounter the job market and are mystified to discover that their grades matter zero, zip, zilch. It's not their fault; that's what they've been taught in high school and earlier. I've tried to explain that for 99% of CS majors, your grades do not matter. If you're spending your time in college constantly studying and worrying about getting an A in your test because oh no your GPA will be a 3.8 otherwise, you haven't really assessed what's important. Go to college; do your best to learn because the material is useful and pretty neat; socialize, have fun; then find a job. That's it. A 4.0 isn't that important.
- mbrodersen 5y agoYou are competing with other collage educated people. So assuming the tech skills are similar, other things will make or break you: communication skills, personality, looks etc.
- rayiner 5y agoThe economy that mobilized on a dime to defeat Nazi Germany and sent men to the moon had only 5% of adults with a college degree. Is it so much more complex now that kids need four more expensive years of education? And if it is more complex, is college as currently structured the cheapest way to develop those additional skills?
- rowanG077 5y agoI think you are approaching this from the wrong angle. You are assuming because the cream of the crop could achieve something (I.e. most certainly had college degrees) 70 years ago that we can still form society like that today. But society is not the same as it was then. I don't think you can argue that the median job today requires the same amount of knowledge or skill then it did 70 years ago. And that is what college is for currently. Of course you can still argue we don't need that many college graduates but your argument by itself is not convincing.
- rfrey 5y agoPlease name some of these skills.
- tptacek 5y agoOne of the highest-growth jobs for liberal arts graduates (which make up the majority of graduates) is human resources. I'll plant a flag in this conversation right now and say that no part of the human resources job requires a 4-year college degree.
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- tristor 5y agoAlso, most of those jobs are either contingent (contract recruiters) or unnecessary. There’s a significant new “industry” in BS jobs being created to support employment for otherwise unemployable college grads. Most of the college programs simply don’t teach anything useful in the job market.
- mettamage 5y ago> It’s already happening with companies like Lambda School focused on cultivating the next generation of software engineers by educating Bad example. Lambda School had some pretty bad press on HN about having lower completion rates than advertised, etc.
- visaals 5y agoYeah I originally wrote this a while back and recently saw that press on twitter and HN. It's still the best example I've got so far, do you know of other programs that are doing a better job than Lambda?
- jsiaajdsdaa 5y agoWhy do people think self taught isnt viable
- kodah 5y agoI'm self-taught. I would never recommend anyone go this route.
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- Foobar8568 5y agoBecause you need a special type of mindset and already be good in a school environment. If you are a drop out, not hard working/studying, you will most likely fail your endeavor. And catching back a good degree might be challenging depending where you live.
- wrapupandkeepit 5y agoI think we believe (implicitly or explicitly) that "signaling" and "credential gaming[1]" are all the name of the game. I believe the best thing a college can do is place you in a community of people trying to learn together. A college fails this when you just have a bunch of people trying to past tests in solitude. I want self-taught to be viable. I consider myself self-taught. I am one of those liberal arts majors that made my way into a data engineering career. I don't regret taking liberal arts but that's more due to a combination of luck, privilege, and personality. [1] https://thepointmag.com/examined-life/degrees-of-anxiety/ https://thepointmag.com/examined-life/degrees-of-anxiety/
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y agoSeems like college fails to live up to being “the great educator” in too many cases too. For those of you who interview new grads, what percent of the time do you interview someone with a degree in the field who can’t do the most basic things in the field? In my experience, it’s pretty high. Even at the college level, education doesn’t seem to extend past “teaching to the test” horrifyingly often (horrifying, given the amount of time and money our society is spending on it).
- watwut 5y agoGiven that schools are judged by tests results and students are judged by test results, it is surprising that both focus on the tests?
- xyzzyz 5y agoWhat is the alternative, though? Even if schools taught actual skills and knowledge, and didn’t focus on teaching to the test, we’d still want and need some method to verify that they are doing so, and that the students actually mastered the material being taught. This means at least some kind of tests. In my opinion, the problem is not with the testing regime, or even “teaching to the test”. It’s the tests themselves that suck. The top priorities for tests designed and used today are ease and efficiency at mass administration, ease of grading, and reduction of subjective in favor of objective measures. Is it any wonder that multiple choice questions are king? When I went to university in Eastern Europe (majored in Mathematics), in many courses we had a final oral exam. The professor would drill into you, and would not get distracted by regurgitation of irrelevant memorized stanzas, he wanted a clear explanation of everything he asked about. This approach to testing is not perfect — for one, time limitations only allow to cover rather small part of the topic, and you might get lucky to get something you actually know. At the same time, there is really no way to teach and study to an oral exam other than actual understanding of the subject matter. However, this is insanely inefficient for the grader: this makes testing a full week’s worth of constant work, as opposed to few hours of just sitting on an exam, and then few more hours grading (even shorter if it’s mostly multiple choice problems). No wonder teachers prefer the latter.
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- wayoutthere 5y agoYeah, there’s a big difference between “kid with a CS degree” and “kid who interned at Microsoft for 3 summers and knows industry dev practices well”. This is why internships matter; it doesn’t even have to be a well-known company as long as it teaches you how to work on a dev team (git, agile workflow, DevOps, cloud, etc). In my experience it’s the tools and tech around working as more than a singleton. That’s the job. To be blunt, most industry jobs do not require a deep computer science background, so the content of the degree is worth less than the experience it gets you access to.
- bluefirebrand 5y agoI was the "kid with a CS degree". My experience interning was "There actually aren't many tech companies in your city and it's 2008 so no one is hiring" I was a broke student so I couldn't exactly afford to relocate for a summer internship, lose my apartment, store all of my belongings and such. I started my career with basically no experience, spent my last money on a deposit and first months rent to relocate to a new city for work after getting a job. Lost that job four months later as the company failed to meet the projections they had. It's been a rough road. I'm doing pretty good now, but overall my bachelor of computer science definitely did not feel like an equalizer.
- visaals 5y agoDang that's a tough road to persevere through especially in '08. How did you get your big break?
- bluefirebrand 5y agoFound a job through a connection I made during that four months and hung onto it for a few years to get some good experience, even though it sucked. Moved to a bigger city from there and started trading up better positions with that experience. Doing pretty good now, I'm a team lead at a company building some pretty cool stuff. Still feels like if I had 2 or 3 internships during university I'd have had a lot smoother sailing. But who knows? It definitely makes me think Software Development should be taught more like a trade with apprenticeships than anything else though.
- dvt 5y ago> who you know than what you know Yeah, the world is a social place. There's a reason European royalty sent their kids to etiquette classes, and even these days fraternities and sororities have formals. That's how the world works. Someone that's surprised by this in their 20s or 30s was failed by their parents or immediate community and this has nothing to do with college. You need to be nice to people, you need to be friendly, you need to know people, attend events, be fun and jovial, etc. Politeness and relationships are the underpinning of our entire society. But if you're introverted (like me), this takes very deliberate practice. Over the past few years, I've posted in every monthly "who's hiring" thread here on HN as just an exercise and to meet people (mostly local to LA). I've met dozens of really cool entrepreneurs, fellow engineers, VPs, C-levels, and other smart folks. Most of these connections will go nowhere, but I wanted to practice being more outgoing by grabbing a beer or coffee and talking about life/technology/anything with strangers. I was able to put together an investor I met with a friend of mine that's trying to raise money; was able to pitch some startup ideas to folks that worked in that domain; but more importantly grow my rolodex and become more comfortable with the art of networking.
- xenocratus 5y agoI totally agree. We live in a world that only values some very specific types of diversity, indeed. Sociability is not one of them. If you're not like the norm you have to put in effort to be more like the norm: you don't want to go to team socials, or go to spinning classes with a VP of engineering? Sucks to be you. And not only that, we'll tell you that it's your fault that it sucks!
- fullshark 5y agoPretty much everyone has incomplete world views in their 20s/30s and gets a reality check as they make decisions and reap the consequences. It's just a matter of what particular lessons your parents / schooling / experiences failed to flesh out until then.
- kiba 5y agoParents only one or two life experience, and likely in a narrow range dictated by socioeconomic circumstances. They also have their own baggage in addition to any wisdom gained, otherwise we would be listening to them more. I have no advice on how to overcome the wisdom/experience gap and unrepaired damage accumulated over time.
- hammock 5y agoWho taught this man that college was The Great Equalizer? I was taught (for better or worse), by STEM grad parents no less, that the only college to strive for is an elite liberal arts education, and the purpose was to broaden my horizons and make connections. It explicitly wasn't to decide on a career and learn hard job skills.
- visaals 5y agoMy immigrant parents ingrained in me that if you work hard and get an education and a degree that you'll be set for life, which is what I now know as just part of the equation. My teachers at my liberal arts focused high school definitely were more of your opinion of "broadening your horizons" and "being an educated member of the community" My argument is mainly that not enough people know what they're getting into they take 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars in loans to get a degree
- kcplate 5y ago> It explicitly wasn't to decide on a career and learn hard job skills This can be good advice, unless you ultimately think you will really want a STEM career. You will ultimately spend an extra couple of years playing class catch up.
- lordnacho 5y agoHere's what a degree is. You read a bunch of books. You go to lectures. You answer questions to see if you understood the material. The content is entirely in the public domain. You can read the same content as I did and understand how to build a radio, a bridge, etc, just like me. There are literally no secrets below phd level, and nowadays you even have easy access to multiple explanations of the same ideas. There isn't even that much teaching, and I say that having attended multiple 2-on-1 tutorials each week for close to 100 weeks. So about 3-400 hours total contact time. Add to that quite a few hours studying for those tutorials, maybe 4 hours for each hour of contact? Depends on how diligent you were. Compare that to my work, where I've regularly worked 60-80 hour weeks for years and years, of which maybe 40 hours was sitting next to a professional superior. Basically in your first months you spend more time sitting next to an expert than your entire degree. My non-contact hours, where I'd read about finance, was similar: after not very long I'd done a similar amount of non-contact work such as reading a textbook. My point is that there's no way that university can qualify you for work. Yes, there are jobs that you need specific degrees to get, but even in those jobs you are normally not considered anything but a junior, entry-level person when you finish the course. You're literally not a lawyer when you finish a law degree, and not an engineer when you get your Master of Engineering (like me). So why do employers want to hire graduates, especially graduates of specific universities and courses? The reason is they think there's a degree to which people who got into top universities in certain courses are capable of learning the necessary material for a new profession. The material may be completely different from what the person studied, in fact it most often is just so. As what I wrote above explains, it should not take long to cover an equivalent amount of material. Computer Science may well be the only exception to this rule. On CS courses (I've looked over the shoulder of a couple of students, and I know a professor) people actually do things with a rather large overlap with professional coding. For instance, when I was in uni I built a toy radio and a toy bridge using toy tools. A CS student uses the same Git to version control his stuff, and the same compilers to build them. There's a number of CS labs that maintain actual production code that people use. This probably means a CS student has a shorter spin-up period, but they still hit the professional time dynamics I mentioned: get a coding job and you'll learn a lot about coding that you didn't learn on the course, really fast. There are also some economic issues about degrees. There's a fairly strong adverse signalling effect: if you get a degree but you don't find a job reasonably fast, or you lost your job, why is that? Did other employers interview you and discover some sort of attitude problem? Perhaps I should just interview the regular new grads. You definitely don't know what a professional knows, and I can train up someone smart, and there's plenty of smart kids coming out of uni. The same goes for your uber driver: if they gave up on getting an actuary job, which is one of the highest paying jobs in society and well worth trying to persevere at, why is that? If he's given up, why would I back him? It's an unfortunate dynamic, but it's definitely there. Regarding "who you know, not what you know", there's a good explanation for that as well. If you have a field of people who are "good enough", and you aren't short of them, and they're not easily differentiable, the employer might as well hire his nephew (this is where the term nepotism comes from). And because of the dynamic explained, there's an awfully large field of good enough people: they are mostly a blank slate anyway, having shown just a bit of promise. Of course you'll never know if your nephew was actually among the best, but it will certainly seem that way once he starts gaining experience. This is why we get a lot of famous peoples' kids breaking into fields like acting, where there's a small number of jobs for a large field of people who could actually do the job. (Though I hesitate to use the same explanation in competitive sports like soccer, where there's a very strong differentiation. Eg Frank Lampard didn't need his uncle to put him on the team, he'd have gotten there anyway.)
- LambdaTrain 5y agoI was wondering if the question is really about the gap between education and job requirement rather than the mismatch between graduate supply v.s. position demand. The gap one is certainly an important question, but it would not be surprising that most of CS graduates does not get a job relevant to their background if "the colleges supply 1000 while the open position is 100 or less". With regard to the context of the article, the example that Uber driver gets a degree in acturial science does not tell much. Probably he is just doing worse than other graduates - even though he is qualified for an acturial job, the employer has tons of better candidates.
- freedom2099 5y agoMaybe this is a US problem… I graduated (Master Degree) at the 1st university of my country (Italy) for engineering 10 years ago. By graduation day I was already employed… and had the luxury of choosing the offer that inspired me the most (had more than 10 offers… basically every company I interview with made an offer). After graduation my phone kept ringing at least twice a day with companies reaching out to try to schedule an interview for months! And the best part that my education was extremely cheap! Annual university fee was less than 2k euros!
- visaals 5y agoCould you say that for all engineering graduates at the majority of universities (even the bottom 50%)? I know plenty of people who had internships and were effectively employed a year before graduating, but I can't say the majority of people are in that position. If education is just 2k euros rather than the 15k (public) or 60k (private) in the US, I agree it's much less of an issue for sure because much less is at stake.
- freedom2099 5y agoIt’s 2k only if your family is on the top wealth bracket. For most people is way less and if you are in the lower. Rackets you even get money to attend. Can’t say it was that easy to find employment for everyone graduating in any university… for sure it was for all my class mates (we graduated in computer engineering). I know it was almost equally easy for other majors graduates…