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China isnt doing the US any favors, lets not pretend any nation state of that size on either side has alturistic intentions. But I am wondering why you are fra

China isnt doing the US any favors, lets not pretend any nation state of that size on either side has alturistic intentions. But I am wondering why you are framing it like its no bid deal. How much does China share with the US? There is a history of IP theft, and its not for the betterment of mankind it's self interest. You could point fingers but then the whole world goes blind. Nationalism is blindness, better to be patriotic but not blind.

sudosysgen 5y ago
IP theft is for the betterment of mankind. It was when the US stole British IP and it is too when China steals American IP. It's not also anywhere near as clear cut in self interest as you say. Even within China, Chinese companies aren't given that much IP protection. In the end 1.4 billion people are better off for it. I struggle to see how mankind isn't better off for it.
- oxymoran 5y ago
  Yea because the CCP has a long track record of sharing, especially with North Korea. Upstanding global citizens they are.
- kube-system 5y ago
  Regardless of attitudes towards commercial IP, most countries take it pretty seriously when defense-related research is stolen. You might get off the hook in China for stealing commercial IP, but I doubt you'd get the same response for violating research agreements with the PLA.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    That's not true. France constantly steals US Defence tech. China constantly steals Russian tech and they are still on good terms. The US probably also tried to steal what it can from everyone, and we know the US facilitated industrial espionage of German companies. Also, China is pretty different in that the PLA allows their researchers to publish a lot of research that gives away their capabilities in sensitive domains like EW and submarine warfare. I'm not sure they would react massively to something that doesn't even entail any information leaking.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      I don't mean that it doesn't happen or that defense agencies keep everything a secret -- I mean that people routinely go to prison for leaking defense tech that wasn't supposed to be leaked.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      > That's not true. France constantly steals US Defence tech. China constantly steals Russian tech and they are still on good terms. The US probably also tried to steal what it can from everyone, and we know the US facilitated industrial espionage of German companies. Can you tell me more or what to look for? I just remember an Israel stole some classified stuff and was sent to prison, an ally stealing secrets but I thought it was a rare occurrence.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    China stole a lot of the fighter jet blueprints like this stealth one. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/hacked-how-china-stole-us-technology-its-j-20-stealth-fighter-66231 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/hacked-how-china-stol... What is the US response? I don't even know.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      The US extradited the guy from Canada who did it and put him in federal prison, there were increasing threats of sanctions, and Obama met with Xi to talk about it.
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        I remember this other case too, look at all he stole, and almost 4 years in prison, I am sure he will learn his lesson and never do it again. https://www.theverge.com/2016/7/15/12196872/chinese-man-us-prison-hack-military-secrets https://www.theverge.com/2016/7/15/12196872/chinese-man-us-p... >increasing threats of sanctions So threats, no real sanctions, not that the steel sanctions did anything, somehow Vietnam started selling us all their steel after we sanction China for other reasons.
        kube-system 5y ago
        My point above is, that’s a lot more than will happen for pirating a DVD in China.
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Some vague threat that had no teeth? What happened? Nobody will be discouraged by such a short term sentence, and be emboldened by its opportunity cost.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > It was when the US stole British IP Was it really stealing? The British pretty much did nothing to stop it nor protected their IP. They certainly didn't strongly enforce it. Contrast that with Chinese theft; as soon as counterfeit products or patent infringing ones make it to US soil they are promptly seized and destroyed if found to be infringing the laws.
  - prewett 5y ago
    I'm no fan of Chinese IP theft, but it is not true that the British did nothing to protect their IP. When Francis Lowell [1] went to Britain to learn about cotton mills, he could find nothing printed, and I believe it was illegal to take notes out of the country. At any rate, he was searched when he left, but he had studied the machinery and memorized plans for it. When he got back, he built the first textile mill in the US. I think publishers in the young United States, having no copyright laws on sheet music, blatantly copied sheet music from British publishers. However, I'm not able to find a source on that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Cabot_Lowell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Cabot_Lowell
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      > but he had studied the machinery and memorized plans for it Did he? There's no evidence for that. To me, it sounds like a smart Harvard grad just figured out a few missing pieces required to get textile manufacturing going. Wasn't his first time doing industrial processes at scale either: he successfully ran a distillery before that. It's also interesting to remember that it happened at a time England was in open war against the United States. It's not really the same right now with Chinese companies trying to get into the US market and vice versa. Both countries claim to be allied but there's a clear disregard for the laws of one particular country! Maybe a better analogy to what Francis Lowell did would be operation paperclip. The US did steal technology from Germany at the end of the war [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
worik 5y ago
> There is a history of IP theft, and its not for the betterment of mankind it's self interest Yes. The betterment of the human race is an unintended consequence. Real but.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  China historically didn’t have IP law, just property of the state. It’s why you don’t see many inventions there aside from government contracted ones like gunpowder. No profit= no incentive.
KorematsuFredt 5y ago
A friend of friend, a doctor of Chinese origin was caught under Trump administration for stealing "critical IP" and giving it to Chinese scientists. I do not know all the details but later it was revealed that the Doctor who was treating child cancer patients in USA shared the best practices and treatment plans that seems to have worked better than others to his doctor contacts in China.
- demadog 5y ago
  In courts they evaluate cases by each situation, so this would be treated differently than other theft, in theory.
  - KorematsuFredt 5y ago
    Read this : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-06-13/the-u-s-is-purging-chinese-americans-from-top-cancer-research https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-06-13/the-u-s-i... > The NIH and the FBI are targeting ethnic Chinese scientists, including U.S. citizens, searching for a cancer cure. Here’s the first account of what happened to Xifeng Wu. > Her resignation, and the departures in recent months of three other top Chinese American scientists from Houston-based MD Anderson, stem from a Trump administration drive to counter Chinese influence at U.S. research institutions. The aim is to stanch China’s well-documented and costly theft of U.S. innovation and know-how. The collateral effect, however, is to stymie basic science, the foundational research that underlies new medical treatments. Everything is commodified in the economic cold war with China, including the struggle to find a cure for cancer. > Ways of working that have long been encouraged by the NIH and many research institutions, particularly MD Anderson, are now quasi-criminalized, with FBI agents reading private emails, stopping Chinese scientists at airports, and visiting people’s homes to ask about their loyalty. Like in above case where the person is being entangled into an IRS tax evasion case, these people are being ethnically targeted, questions, harassed, their constitutional rights being trampled upon.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  What classified it as "critical IP"? Was there some oath or some papers he wasn't supposed to use any of these practices?
footlose_3815 5y ago
[dead]
Trombone12 5y ago
Sorry what? I post stories about the FBI harassing academics with Chinese connections while not finding any crime, and you accuse me of framing IP theft as something mild? Have you also spent most of last year accusing George Floyd protesters of downplaying the importance of paying for cigarettes?
GhettoComputers 5y ago
>China isnt doing the US any favors, lets not pretend any nation state of that size on either side has alturistic intentions. They manufacture all the American goods for cheap, to benefit themselves but to say there is no partnership is not honest. >How much does China share with the US? They use manpower, for IP they ignore the IP laws usually, so if you mean sciences, there are frequent collaborations. >There is a history of IP theft The US did not enforce IP laws until they had a sizable amount to use as leverage, I see China doing the same. >and its not for the betterment of mankind it's self interest. Self interest does not have to be a zero sum game. Oil baron enriched themselves and also provided cheap oil.
- samhw 5y ago
  I don't know why this is downvoted. This is talking the most sense out of anyone in the thread. Talking about American companies choosing to outsource labour to China as if it's some kind of casus belli is absurd.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    Check out some of my other posts here! Most of the people have been fed propaganda, they probably think the tank man was run over. I can't believe that enabling China to take advantage is seen as an evil, the companies sold out America for cheaper labor, even after they cut benefits, and now cry about stolen IP from a country that in popular culture is know to copy products (poorly). Slavery is now seen as an expensive mistake, and so is outsourcing work to a poor country that copies designs, none of this is a suprise. They could have stayed and enriched the workers, paid them well so the economy did well, and kept their secret designs in a country that respected IP laws. The US as a culture lacks long term planning, like in infastucture, the length of the next elections, these companies saw short term profits mattered more and slaying the golden goose was the genius move.
- catlikesshrimp 5y ago
  "They manufacture all the American goods for cheap, to benefit themselves but to say there is no partnership is not honest." Outsourcing labor to China has diminished the US so much. It is like the Heroin of economics for Americans.

sudosysgen 5y ago

IP theft is for the betterment of mankind. It was when the US stole British IP and it is too when China steals American IP. It's not also anywhere near as clear cut in self interest as you say. Even within China, Chinese companies aren't given that much IP protection. In the end 1.4 billion people are better off for it. I struggle to see how mankind isn't better off for it.

oxymoran 5y ago
Yea because the CCP has a long track record of sharing, especially with North Korea. Upstanding global citizens they are.
kube-system 5y ago
Regardless of attitudes towards commercial IP, most countries take it pretty seriously when defense-related research is stolen. You might get off the hook in China for stealing commercial IP, but I doubt you'd get the same response for violating research agreements with the PLA.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That's not true. France constantly steals US Defence tech. China constantly steals Russian tech and they are still on good terms. The US probably also tried to steal what it can from everyone, and we know the US facilitated industrial espionage of German companies. Also, China is pretty different in that the PLA allows their researchers to publish a lot of research that gives away their capabilities in sensitive domains like EW and submarine warfare. I'm not sure they would react massively to something that doesn't even entail any information leaking.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    I don't mean that it doesn't happen or that defense agencies keep everything a secret -- I mean that people routinely go to prison for leaking defense tech that wasn't supposed to be leaked.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    > That's not true. France constantly steals US Defence tech. China constantly steals Russian tech and they are still on good terms. The US probably also tried to steal what it can from everyone, and we know the US facilitated industrial espionage of German companies. Can you tell me more or what to look for? I just remember an Israel stole some classified stuff and was sent to prison, an ally stealing secrets but I thought it was a rare occurrence.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  China stole a lot of the fighter jet blueprints like this stealth one. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/hacked-how-china-stole-us-technology-its-j-20-stealth-fighter-66231 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/hacked-how-china-stol... What is the US response? I don't even know.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    The US extradited the guy from Canada who did it and put him in federal prison, there were increasing threats of sanctions, and Obama met with Xi to talk about it.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      I remember this other case too, look at all he stole, and almost 4 years in prison, I am sure he will learn his lesson and never do it again. https://www.theverge.com/2016/7/15/12196872/chinese-man-us-prison-hack-military-secrets https://www.theverge.com/2016/7/15/12196872/chinese-man-us-p... >increasing threats of sanctions So threats, no real sanctions, not that the steel sanctions did anything, somehow Vietnam started selling us all their steel after we sanction China for other reasons.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        My point above is, that’s a lot more than will happen for pirating a DVD in China.
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Some vague threat that had no teeth? What happened? Nobody will be discouraged by such a short term sentence, and be emboldened by its opportunity cost.
908B64B197 5y ago
> It was when the US stole British IP Was it really stealing? The British pretty much did nothing to stop it nor protected their IP. They certainly didn't strongly enforce it. Contrast that with Chinese theft; as soon as counterfeit products or patent infringing ones make it to US soil they are promptly seized and destroyed if found to be infringing the laws.
- prewett 5y ago
  I'm no fan of Chinese IP theft, but it is not true that the British did nothing to protect their IP. When Francis Lowell [1] went to Britain to learn about cotton mills, he could find nothing printed, and I believe it was illegal to take notes out of the country. At any rate, he was searched when he left, but he had studied the machinery and memorized plans for it. When he got back, he built the first textile mill in the US. I think publishers in the young United States, having no copyright laws on sheet music, blatantly copied sheet music from British publishers. However, I'm not able to find a source on that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Cabot_Lowell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Cabot_Lowell
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > but he had studied the machinery and memorized plans for it Did he? There's no evidence for that. To me, it sounds like a smart Harvard grad just figured out a few missing pieces required to get textile manufacturing going. Wasn't his first time doing industrial processes at scale either: he successfully ran a distillery before that. It's also interesting to remember that it happened at a time England was in open war against the United States. It's not really the same right now with Chinese companies trying to get into the US market and vice versa. Both countries claim to be allied but there's a clear disregard for the laws of one particular country! Maybe a better analogy to what Francis Lowell did would be operation paperclip. The US did steal technology from Germany at the end of the war [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago

worik 5y ago

> There is a history of IP theft, and its not for the betterment of mankind it's self interest Yes. The betterment of the human race is an unintended consequence. Real but.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
China historically didn’t have IP law, just property of the state. It’s why you don’t see many inventions there aside from government contracted ones like gunpowder. No profit= no incentive.

KorematsuFredt 5y ago

A friend of friend, a doctor of Chinese origin was caught under Trump administration for stealing "critical IP" and giving it to Chinese scientists. I do not know all the details but later it was revealed that the Doctor who was treating child cancer patients in USA shared the best practices and treatment plans that seems to have worked better than others to his doctor contacts in China.

demadog 5y ago
In courts they evaluate cases by each situation, so this would be treated differently than other theft, in theory.
- KorematsuFredt 5y ago
  Read this : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-06-13/the-u-s-is-purging-chinese-americans-from-top-cancer-research https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-06-13/the-u-s-i... > The NIH and the FBI are targeting ethnic Chinese scientists, including U.S. citizens, searching for a cancer cure. Here’s the first account of what happened to Xifeng Wu. > Her resignation, and the departures in recent months of three other top Chinese American scientists from Houston-based MD Anderson, stem from a Trump administration drive to counter Chinese influence at U.S. research institutions. The aim is to stanch China’s well-documented and costly theft of U.S. innovation and know-how. The collateral effect, however, is to stymie basic science, the foundational research that underlies new medical treatments. Everything is commodified in the economic cold war with China, including the struggle to find a cure for cancer. > Ways of working that have long been encouraged by the NIH and many research institutions, particularly MD Anderson, are now quasi-criminalized, with FBI agents reading private emails, stopping Chinese scientists at airports, and visiting people’s homes to ask about their loyalty. Like in above case where the person is being entangled into an IRS tax evasion case, these people are being ethnically targeted, questions, harassed, their constitutional rights being trampled upon.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
What classified it as "critical IP"? Was there some oath or some papers he wasn't supposed to use any of these practices?

footlose_3815 5y ago

[dead]

Trombone12 5y ago

Sorry what? I post stories about the FBI harassing academics with Chinese connections while not finding any crime, and you accuse me of framing IP theft as something mild? Have you also spent most of last year accusing George Floyd protesters of downplaying the importance of paying for cigarettes?

GhettoComputers 5y ago

>China isnt doing the US any favors, lets not pretend any nation state of that size on either side has alturistic intentions. They manufacture all the American goods for cheap, to benefit themselves but to say there is no partnership is not honest. >How much does China share with the US? They use manpower, for IP they ignore the IP laws usually, so if you mean sciences, there are frequent collaborations. >There is a history of IP theft The US did not enforce IP laws until they had a sizable amount to use as leverage, I see China doing the same. >and its not for the betterment of mankind it's self interest. Self interest does not have to be a zero sum game. Oil baron enriched themselves and also provided cheap oil.

samhw 5y ago
I don't know why this is downvoted. This is talking the most sense out of anyone in the thread. Talking about American companies choosing to outsource labour to China as if it's some kind of casus belli is absurd.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Check out some of my other posts here! Most of the people have been fed propaganda, they probably think the tank man was run over. I can't believe that enabling China to take advantage is seen as an evil, the companies sold out America for cheaper labor, even after they cut benefits, and now cry about stolen IP from a country that in popular culture is know to copy products (poorly). Slavery is now seen as an expensive mistake, and so is outsourcing work to a poor country that copies designs, none of this is a suprise. They could have stayed and enriched the workers, paid them well so the economy did well, and kept their secret designs in a country that respected IP laws. The US as a culture lacks long term planning, like in infastucture, the length of the next elections, these companies saw short term profits mattered more and slaying the golden goose was the genius move.
catlikesshrimp 5y ago
"They manufacture all the American goods for cheap, to benefit themselves but to say there is no partnership is not honest." Outsourcing labor to China has diminished the US so much. It is like the Heroin of economics for Americans.