6 ms·

You could argue that in the Anglosphere, Worcestershire sauce is a modern version since it often includes fermented anchovies.

by AHabe 5y ago

anfractuosity 5y ago
There's a little video that shows inside the Lea & Perrins factory, with barrels of salted anchovies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSiQAVzT1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSiQAVzT1c
- AHabe 5y ago
  That's amazing, thank you very much!
- Symbiote 5y ago
  My grandfather said his first job (as an apprentice) was measuring the Lea and Perrins factory for new mixing vats. It looks like they've replaced them again, since that time. And couldn't they have told the scientist that it's "Worcestershire Sauce" and not "Worcester Sauce"? Worcestershire is the county, Worcester is the largest city in that county. At least it's pronounced correctly. Worcester/Worcestershire rhyme with Leicester/Leicestershire, and pronunciation of "Leicester" should be familiar to Americans as the personal name "Lester". ("Wuster" hasn't caught on yet.) -cester as a suffix to a place name is from the Latin castrum, meaning fort – these were Roman settlements.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    "Worcester" violates practically every convention of English spelling and pronunciation. Is there any other word in which "rce" even appears, let alone is silent? [edit] Farce. Faaaaaa. Larceny. Lonnie?
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      There are plenty of other place names that end in -cester pronounced as -ster: gloucester, leicester, bicester. It's somewhat of a rule itself. wor sounding more like woo is just the local accent I think.
      - noduerme 5y ago
        I think what's confusing for Americans who didn't grow up with a lot of towns named that way is that "cester" is pronounced "ster", but "chester" is pronounced fully. Throw in a "shire" at the end of that and it's a mouthful.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      "rce" is not a syllable here, so it's not that relevant. It's Wor + cester, and cester is always pronounced ster. So it's actually not very surprising.
      - kadoban 5y ago
        Silent "ce" isn't really any less surprising to me. Where would I otherwise know this rule for "cester" from?
        Grustaf 5y ago
        It's not really that "ce is silent", it's that cester is pronounced "ster". It's extremely common in languages that long, old roots like that are elided in speak - in French they basically always elide the last syllable! cester/caster/chester (from castrum, meaning fort/castle) is a very common place name ending in English and the cester variant is almost always pronounced ster. Think Leicester, Gloucester, Worcester.
    - zimpenfish 5y ago
      `egrep '^[a-z].*rce' /usr/share/dict/words | grep -v "'s" | wc` gives 157 for me but there's a lot of duplication - probably comes down to about 35 base words from a quick eyeball.
    - christkv 5y ago
      I love Leicester Square in London which is pronounced Lester square.
      - Symbiote 5y ago
        Leicester (the city, not the square in London named for it) is just south of the town of Loughborough. Leicestershire in general has more than its fair share of difficult placenames: Ashby de la Zouch, South Croxton, Kirby Bellars, Belvoir, Rotherby vs Rothley, Frisby on the Wreake, Nether Broughton, Kibworth Beauchamp, Glooston* (not sure of this one myself), Wymeswold. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.7457/-1.0495 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.7457/-1.0495
        christkv 5y ago
        I have to say the biggest challenge I had was hiking in wales in Snowdonia and trying to inquire about town and village names. I ended up writing them down to show because I butchered the names no matter how much I tried.
        Symbiote 5y ago
        Welsh is a completely different language, with its own writing system. dd → th, ff → f, ll → hl (ish), w → oo gets you most of the way to being understood as a tourist, in my experience. (Though I'm British, so I've heard many of the larger Welsh place names pronounced properly since childhood, via TV/radio etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_orthography#Letter_names_and_sound_values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_orthography#Letter_names...
        Chris2048 5y ago
        Interesting fact: There was a running joke in PC Gamer (UK) about how odd/terrible Loughborough is..
        quercusa 5y ago
        How many syllables are pronounced in 'Loughborough'?
    - Jailbird 5y ago
      I now break it up in my head as "Worce", which isn't too far of a stretch to read as "worse", and then "ster". It may be all kinds of wrong, I'm not sure, but it helped keep my sanity (on this one point...)
      - noduerme 5y ago
        As far as the sauce, everyone I've heard in America pronounces it "worst-ah-sure".
  - captainmuon 5y ago
    It doesn't help that the correct pronunciation of "Worcestershire", something like Wu-sta-sha, looks a lot like "Warchester". One is tempted to wrongly map the syllables Wor->Wu Che->Ste Ster->Sha. Btw. this is one of the prime examples why I think we should use phonetic transscription not only for different alphabets, but also for languages that use latin characters with very different pronunciation (like Irish or Welsh), or even for odd English words like this one.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      > I think we should use phonetic transscription We do, it's called IPA and Worcestershire is /ˈwʊstərʃər/. Using something similar for actual normal writing would be difficult though, it would hide all the etymological linkages between different European languages, and even obscure connections within each language.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    Worcester in MA is pronounced "wusta"
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    Wooster is a great name though, at least in books.
  - rlpb 5y ago
    > And couldn't they have told the scientist that it's "Worcestershire Sauce" and not "Worcester Sauce"? I've heard plenty of English people pronounce it "Wooster Sauce". I'm pretty sure they're aware of the difference. I think it's just become a standard contraction.
    - wrycoder 5y ago
      Woostershur.
  - nkrisc 5y ago
    I assumed many Americans, like myself, would be familiar with the pronunciation of Worcester from Worcester, Massachusetts. I didn’t even grow up anywhere near New England.
  - quietbritishjim 5y ago
    Worcester Sauce is a common way to refer to it. Even and Lea and Perrins used to do so - here's an advert for it from the 1840s, along with some generic references to it from the 1830s. [1] http://www.foodsofengland.co.uk/worcesterorworcestershiresauce.htm http://www.foodsofengland.co.uk/worcesterorworcestershiresau...
avereveard 5y ago
if you go that route, ketchup share a very similar lineage as well, albeit it picked up more transformations along the way, it still carries the name as legacy.
Grustaf 5y ago
And Japan has katsuobushi, which comes in dried blocks, but it's ultimately fermented tuna and is used all the time as soup stock.

You could argue that in the Anglosphere, Worcestershire sauce is a modern version since it often includes fermented anchovies.

by AHabe 5y ago

You could argue that in the Anglosphere, Worcestershire sauce is a modern version since it often includes fermented anchovies.

anfractuosity 5y ago

There's a little video that shows inside the Lea & Perrins factory, with barrels of salted anchovies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSiQAVzT1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSiQAVzT1c

AHabe 5y ago
That's amazing, thank you very much!
Symbiote 5y ago
My grandfather said his first job (as an apprentice) was measuring the Lea and Perrins factory for new mixing vats. It looks like they've replaced them again, since that time. And couldn't they have told the scientist that it's "Worcestershire Sauce" and not "Worcester Sauce"? Worcestershire is the county, Worcester is the largest city in that county. At least it's pronounced correctly. Worcester/Worcestershire rhyme with Leicester/Leicestershire, and pronunciation of "Leicester" should be familiar to Americans as the personal name "Lester". ("Wuster" hasn't caught on yet.) -cester as a suffix to a place name is from the Latin castrum, meaning fort – these were Roman settlements.
- noduerme 5y ago
  "Worcester" violates practically every convention of English spelling and pronunciation. Is there any other word in which "rce" even appears, let alone is silent? [edit] Farce. Faaaaaa. Larceny. Lonnie?
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    There are plenty of other place names that end in -cester pronounced as -ster: gloucester, leicester, bicester. It's somewhat of a rule itself. wor sounding more like woo is just the local accent I think.
    - noduerme 5y ago
      I think what's confusing for Americans who didn't grow up with a lot of towns named that way is that "cester" is pronounced "ster", but "chester" is pronounced fully. Throw in a "shire" at the end of that and it's a mouthful.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    "rce" is not a syllable here, so it's not that relevant. It's Wor + cester, and cester is always pronounced ster. So it's actually not very surprising.
    - kadoban 5y ago
      Silent "ce" isn't really any less surprising to me. Where would I otherwise know this rule for "cester" from?
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        It's not really that "ce is silent", it's that cester is pronounced "ster". It's extremely common in languages that long, old roots like that are elided in speak - in French they basically always elide the last syllable! cester/caster/chester (from castrum, meaning fort/castle) is a very common place name ending in English and the cester variant is almost always pronounced ster. Think Leicester, Gloucester, Worcester.
  - zimpenfish 5y ago
    `egrep '^[a-z].*rce' /usr/share/dict/words | grep -v "'s" | wc` gives 157 for me but there's a lot of duplication - probably comes down to about 35 base words from a quick eyeball.
  - christkv 5y ago
    I love Leicester Square in London which is pronounced Lester square.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      Leicester (the city, not the square in London named for it) is just south of the town of Loughborough. Leicestershire in general has more than its fair share of difficult placenames: Ashby de la Zouch, South Croxton, Kirby Bellars, Belvoir, Rotherby vs Rothley, Frisby on the Wreake, Nether Broughton, Kibworth Beauchamp, Glooston* (not sure of this one myself), Wymeswold. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.7457/-1.0495 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.7457/-1.0495
      - christkv 5y ago
        I have to say the biggest challenge I had was hiking in wales in Snowdonia and trying to inquire about town and village names. I ended up writing them down to show because I butchered the names no matter how much I tried.
        Symbiote 5y ago
        Welsh is a completely different language, with its own writing system. dd → th, ff → f, ll → hl (ish), w → oo gets you most of the way to being understood as a tourist, in my experience. (Though I'm British, so I've heard many of the larger Welsh place names pronounced properly since childhood, via TV/radio etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_orthography#Letter_names_and_sound_values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_orthography#Letter_names...
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        Interesting fact: There was a running joke in PC Gamer (UK) about how odd/terrible Loughborough is..
      - quercusa 5y ago
        How many syllables are pronounced in 'Loughborough'?
  - Jailbird 5y ago
    I now break it up in my head as "Worce", which isn't too far of a stretch to read as "worse", and then "ster". It may be all kinds of wrong, I'm not sure, but it helped keep my sanity (on this one point...)
    - noduerme 5y ago
      As far as the sauce, everyone I've heard in America pronounces it "worst-ah-sure".
- captainmuon 5y ago
  It doesn't help that the correct pronunciation of "Worcestershire", something like Wu-sta-sha, looks a lot like "Warchester". One is tempted to wrongly map the syllables Wor->Wu Che->Ste Ster->Sha. Btw. this is one of the prime examples why I think we should use phonetic transscription not only for different alphabets, but also for languages that use latin characters with very different pronunciation (like Irish or Welsh), or even for odd English words like this one.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    > I think we should use phonetic transscription We do, it's called IPA and Worcestershire is /ˈwʊstərʃər/. Using something similar for actual normal writing would be difficult though, it would hide all the etymological linkages between different European languages, and even obscure connections within each language.
- dekhn 5y ago
  Worcester in MA is pronounced "wusta"
- Grustaf 5y ago
  Wooster is a great name though, at least in books.
- rlpb 5y ago
  > And couldn't they have told the scientist that it's "Worcestershire Sauce" and not "Worcester Sauce"? I've heard plenty of English people pronounce it "Wooster Sauce". I'm pretty sure they're aware of the difference. I think it's just become a standard contraction.
  - wrycoder 5y ago
    Woostershur.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  I assumed many Americans, like myself, would be familiar with the pronunciation of Worcester from Worcester, Massachusetts. I didn’t even grow up anywhere near New England.
- quietbritishjim 5y ago
  Worcester Sauce is a common way to refer to it. Even and Lea and Perrins used to do so - here's an advert for it from the 1840s, along with some generic references to it from the 1830s. [1] http://www.foodsofengland.co.uk/worcesterorworcestershiresauce.htm http://www.foodsofengland.co.uk/worcesterorworcestershiresau...

avereveard 5y ago

if you go that route, ketchup share a very similar lineage as well, albeit it picked up more transformations along the way, it still carries the name as legacy.

Grustaf 5y ago

And Japan has katsuobushi, which comes in dried blocks, but it's ultimately fermented tuna and is used all the time as soup stock.