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France moves to shield its book industry from Amazon

220 points by 80mph 5y ago

EastOfTruth 5y ago
They should move into the banned book publishing business instead.
r00fus 5y ago
All for a way to protect small businesses which actually pay local taxes vs. Amazon which doesn't pay taxes in the US at all - but not sure a minimum ship price is the best approach. Isn't there a better way, perhaps based on physical presence?
- ec109685 5y ago
  Amazon pays tons of sales tax.
intricatedetail 5y ago
This is stupid. It will prevent local business from using "free" shipping. Better way will be to just ban Amazon until they start paying right taxes.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  If they’re not paying the right taxes, why not just prosecute them for violating tax laws?
  - intricatedetail 5y ago
    In my country such thing is discretionary for IRS. They would have to request accounting books and go through probably billions of transactions. Plus political pressure.
rafaelturk 5y ago
My experience tells me that the practical outcome of this new regulation is that shipping will become more expensive for books. It will not prevent customers to stop shopping online, so no effect for legacy bookstore.s Like most goverment proposed solutions: This will actually create a new problem not fix the origintal intented cause.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  Most government proposed solutions create new problems instead of fixing the original? Do you have any data to back that claim up?
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    >Most government proposed solutions create new problems instead of fixing the original? Do you have any data to back that claim up?
  - rafaelturk 5y ago
    GDPR - General Data Protection Regulation; Europe's complex privacy regulations was meant to curb Google and Facebook abuse of cookies, data and power. It only made it harder for smaller startups or other companies to compete. Meanwhile Bigh Tech, suported by expensive legal, Design and marketing teams evated all new the regulatory burden. Overall GDPR only made Google and Facebok more powerful, and introduced a new legal barrier to challenger startups. Hence helps to consolidate even more their power. And Finally to make it even worse now everyone has to deal with that stupid consent cookie banner in every single website..
- Shadonototra 5y ago
  Maybe that is not a problem, and will force people to actually get to meet with people Dematerialized everything has its problems too But why bother with the social aspect of things, we are all enslaved consumerist robots anyways..
  - pverghese 5y ago
konschubert 5y ago
This will make all online book sales more expensive, not just Amazon's.
arthurcolle 5y ago
Oh wow, Amazon is such a threat! Whatever will Larousse and Hachette do... maybe remain competitive? </3
- coldtea 5y ago
  I'd rather not have them race to the bottom to "remain competitive". I also rather not have the book industry of a country dependent on the whims (and VC/bottomless pit of money to stay "competitive" while they crush a market) of an American company. Even more so one with no culture and no respect for the book as a work of the spirit whatsoever. So there's that.
  - smabie 5y ago
    I guess I would rather have cheaper books/things, don't really care whether a book seller has respect for a book as a "work of spirit" whatever that means.
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      The poster with «work of spirit» probably meant "outcome of higher mental work and more, including intellectual". And expressed that it should be respected as a highly dignified product (as opposed to a piece of product conceived for consumerism). Nonetheless, i cannot really interpret that mention of Europe "as opposed to some rest". Edit: having seen further comments, I can. There are areas in Europe in which extremely light judgement and behaviour is socially unpunished and considered normal, or "normal as an exception". (In other areas, nobody with that trait could have reached, say, 18 years of age without getting "straightened".) It must be noted that those areas have a mixed population: some will behave """antisocially""" while many will remain absolutely lovely - it is just tolerance of juvenile thought and behaviour misunderstood by some """beneficiaries""" as acceptance or approval, instead of patience.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        >There are areas in Europe in which extremely light judgement and behaviour is socially unpunished and considered normal, or "normal as an exception" I'm not even sure what that means. Is it about juvenile deliquency ("areas in Europe in which extremely light judgement and behaviour is socially unpunished and considered normal") or some critique about how "elitists" are unbearable, making comments about things being worth more than their monetary value is beyond the pale, and the proper form of social being (that people - and peoples - should be "straigtened" to) is being a mass consumer? If it's the latter, it manages to be way more patronizing that the "elitism" it's supposedly against, and unlike it, with no redeeming qualities either. Or maybe it's about how in some cultures you're "straigtened" to behave like a public advertisement, marketing yourself, with faux politiness, well smoothed talk, and fake smiles -- and how some came to consider this the proper behavior, as opposed as a regression?
fallingknife 5y ago
> More than 20% of the 435 million books sold in France in 2019 were bought online I am very surprised at how low this number is.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  I'm not: French bookshops are really rather good.
- themodelplumber 5y ago
  I wonder how many of the hard copies were bought as gifts or purchased by wandering tourists looking for a paper companion.
- Bayart 5y ago
  Discovery on Amazon is pretty bad. I've never picked a book there after having serendipitously finding my way to it. But I've done exactly that in bookstores countless times. The only websites that give me an experience remotely similar are those of old, specialized publishers. Case in point (in French) : - https://www.lesbelleslettres.com/collections https://www.lesbelleslettres.com/collections - https://www.droz.org/france/section/Collections https://www.droz.org/france/section/Collections - https://www.honorechampion.com/fr/29-champion https://www.honorechampion.com/fr/29-champion
ur-whale 5y ago
To all posters who harp on the "this is stupid" theme: I do agree, but saying this is imo short-sighted. Much more likely, we're witnessing a good old-fashioned lobbying effort bearing fruits at the expense of the consumer and in favor of a small but politically connected group of businesses.
throwaway789257 5y ago
France has a long history of attempting to protect its cultural industries, including film and publishing. It's not wrong. There are other things that are important aside from customer purchasing power. Amazon is using its economies of scale to drive out smaller businesses. It is not unique in that. But the industries that Amazon affects may be unique to the nations that wish to preserve them. Most centralization incrementally kills local industry, including the local culture industry. TV, railroads, chain stores, Wal-mart, you name it -- they are all killing something local.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  With regards to big players and economies of scale, it's notable that on the other side of the exchange we have more people brought into the fold than ever, whether we're talking about books, movies, or apps. Otherwise there wouldn't be any leverage by which to squeeze out smaller entities. In modern times, this is an incidental cost of access. There's also some understandable doubts about the long term results of this tradeoff, as it is suspected that the final stage of this play is to raise prices again, thereby squeezing access up to some "optimal" equilibrium.
  - bsder 5y ago
    > With regards to big players and economies of scale, it's notable that on the other side of the exchange we have more people brought into the fold than ever, whether we're talking about books Are more people actually brought into the fold? The rise of Amazon seems to correlate with fewer people also needing libraries and that libraries store fewer books. The problem is that the prerequisite for using Amazon and libraries with fewer books is the wealth to fund a networked computer and the knowledge how to use it. As someone from a blue collar background whose education utilized the dead trees of the local libraries quite extensively, I'm not at all sure that this wouldn't be an obstacle if I had to go through education today. That is concerning to me. Even as someone highly trained in tech, I find that when I need knowledge from before about 1995, that knowledge has become increasingly difficult to access. The knowledge likely isn't online, and so many of the books have been destroyed that browsing the stacks is quite often unsuccessful nowadays.
reissbaker 5y ago
I'm curious whether French independent bookstores have been harmed much by Amazon. In the US, Amazon has probably actually been a boon — the number of independent bookstores has grown dramatically over the last decade, in part because Amazon squashed the previous era's giant book retailers like Borders and Barnes and Noble, who had been crushing independent bookstores.
pier25 5y ago
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is actually protecting the small book stores, right? Big stores like the Fnac could offer the same shipping prices as Amazon (and maybe they're already doing it). Publishers don't care much who is selling the book as long as it's selling. Obviously this only applies to physical books. Ebooks only account for about 15% of books sold in France unlike the US where it's close to 50% [1]. [1] https://imgur.com/edK0YWP https://imgur.com/edK0YWP
- amluto 5y ago
  I’m suspicious that Amazon sells fewer books than a good physical bookstore. In a bookstore, people find books they didn’t know they want, and I’ve never found anything interesting on Amazon. Similarly, Amazon does not produce the “whole I’m already here, I might as well buy something else” effect. I’ve long thought that the publishers have has their whole business model wrong in quite a few ways.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > I’ve never found anything interesting on Amazon Probably a lack of your own imagination. There’s a lifetime of interesting books on Amazon.
    - pier25 5y ago
      Same for me. I've found plenty of interesting stuff on Amazon.
      - hellbannedguy 5y ago
        Don't you love their prices? I have seen some crazy prices on Amazon. I have seen prices as high as $1200.00 for a book. Not a rare, or out of print book either. I think some wingding MBA said, "Lets go after the people who don't have the sence to shop around for price." Let our resellers jack up the price to Crazy because we will get our cut, I'm a Watchmaker, and sometimes suprised by the hugh prices I see on books related to my interest. And yes, it's a niche subject, but a quick glance at Ebay usually exposes a reasonable price. (In all fairness, all the big book sellers started doing it. The last holdout was Thriftbooks, but they are no different that Amazon now. Strike that--they realized some people don't care about price, but I have never seen a gut punching price on their website.)
Zababa 5y ago
As an anecdote, where I live Amazon has switched from Colis Privé to Colissimo. With Colis Privé, I used to always get my packages in my mailbox, even if they had to force it in a bit. Nothing was ever damaged because of this. With Colissimo, they come at usually 15h on a week day, may or may not call you, and either give the package to a neighbor or put it at the local post office. In short, the delivery went from great to garbage. As for the current state of the "book industry" where I live: you have 4 choices, either Amazon, an independant bookstore, Decitre (a local bookstore chain), or FNAC (basically Amazon but with physical buildings). Independant bookstores are usually great at recommandations (way better than anything Amazon can do for example), but some of them are just a small-size FNAC, which kind of removes the point of an independant bookstore. As someone that almost only buy books when I know which book I want to buy, so I don't benefit a lot from independant bookstores, but people around me like them a lot.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  Just get an Amazon Locker. https://www.amazon.com/ulp/view/ https://www.amazon.com/ulp/view/
  - Zababa 5y ago
    So instead of going to the ground floor of my appartment building, opening my mail box, taking my package and going back home, I have to take a 7 minute walk to the train station, hope that it's open, take my package, and go back home. That's a worse service than what I got before.
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      I meant, in your apartment's building lobby.
      - Zababa 5y ago
        We already have mailboxes for that. Here's an example of what it looks like if you're not familiar: https://cdn-s-www.leprogres.fr/images/A3755E4B-30EC-4378-99A3-FCA7BCE2A867/NW_raw/photo-illustration-progres-frederic-chambert-1581934166.jpg https://cdn-s-www.leprogres.fr/images/A3755E4B-30EC-4378-99A.... They're around 25 cm wide and tall, and 35 cm deep.
deleted 5y ago
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ineedasername 5y ago
So, basically Amazon is in a win-win situation. If the status quo prevails, they're happy. If they have to start charging for shipping, maybe some customers go to a local bookstore but Amazon also has a legal mandate to make more profit in their book sales by not subsidizing shipping out of the wholesale margin. And while some people will buy local a bit more, Amazon sells so many things and the local store may still have to order your book and get it to you slower than Amazon, keeping Amazon as the most convenient option... I don't see a long-term downside for Amazon here.
- waynesonfire 5y ago
  Oh good one. I guess at the end thats what these comapnies want. If they cant get market share through prices they'll do it in other ways as long as there is a level playing field. Similar to what fb is dealing with. They would welcome any legislation to hamper social media competition since they could then stop buying up potential threats.
- xcambar 5y ago
  That struck me as well. Another option would have been to support local bookstores by subsidizing transportation, which would have allowed them to lower the price to the point of being competitive with Amazon. But I guess that using public money to help local businesses is not as good as getting the customers to pay and help Amazon at the same time, in the eyes of Macron.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    > Another option would have been to support local bookstores by subsidizing transportation Doesn't media mail already do this (in the US)? If you're just sending books, the USPS will deliver them well below cost. I'm not sure what effect it has on local shops.
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      I'm not sure media mail is really below cost: it gets shipped on a space-available basis on the trucks, which is why it can take longer to arrive. So it's really only processed when there's excess capacity that would have gone unused. $3 for postage is probably going to cover marginal costs here.
silentsea90 5y ago
I think resisting change only takes you so far. Let systems become efficient. Centralized systems like Amazon will find an antidote in decentralized ones like Shopify. We don't miss horse carriages but I am sure they were part of daily life a 100+ years ago. Disruption and change is part of life.
makeitdouble 5y ago
A lot of comments don’t seem to get the context of this. Book prices are regulated in France [0] and you can’t just discount willy-nilly, in particular new book publications have selling prices set by the publisher. This proposition is coming on top of that: it will block sellers from artificially discounting books by subsidizing shipping cost. It is basically closing a loophole that still allowed Amazon to have lower prices than others. It doesn’t matter if you’re independent, purely online or not. The effect will be to force the same sticker price everywhere, as intended for years now. It may push people to buy local, but it’s only a side effect, and not the directly intended goal (there are other french online retailers that will benefit a lot more from this law). [0] https://www.sne.fr/app/uploads/2017/11/Intervention-Catherine-Blache_prix-unique-du-livre_mars-2015.pdf https://www.sne.fr/app/uploads/2017/11/Intervention-Catherin...
- pier25 5y ago
  > The effect will be to force the same sticker price everywhere, as intended for years now. So in the end the seller with the best service will win.
  - makeitdouble 5y ago
    It just removes the price out of the equation. There will be any number of other factors pushing a customer to choose a store or another. On a personal level, delivery network was a big one, and Amazon wasn't the best on this as you can't choose in most cases (delivery guys randomly calling on my phone because they got lost in another town...). But everyone will have their pet peeve, some people will just chose on how warm they feel about the company.
    - jareklupinski 5y ago
      > It just removes the price out of the equation. I too welcome our post-scarcity future :)
      - makeitdouble 5y ago
benreesman 5y ago
I apologize in advance for generalizing here and there. The point holds. “Capitalism” is what people do when they’re not having sex (and sometimes even then). It is the most powerful economic engine we know about. “Socialism” is the discipline of maximizing overall human welfare within the economic limits. The engine and the steering wheel so to speak. I’m willing to bet those definitions are in no dictionary, but the basic point is roughly what no constitution has yet to get right. The tricky bit is avoiding capture, and I’m optimistic we can do this without shooting all the lobbyists, but it would be a bargain even at that price.
- _vbnz 5y ago
  > “Capitalism” is what people do when they’re not having sex (and sometimes even then). It is the most powerful economic engine we know about. Capitalism is when people does stuff. Capitalism is a system where the Earth's resources and means of production (factories, machines, etc.) are privately owned. You can have voluntary exchange without that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism
  - benreesman 5y ago
    I’m fairly well versed in the barter -> coinage -> credit -> prosperity orthodoxy. Probably the best balance between accessibility and rigor on why that’s provably utter nonsense is “Debt: The First 5000 Years” by David Graeber. Now I know I’m going to piss off the Ayn Rand crowd, but I’m not concerned about that for two reasons: 1. Anyone who enjoys lectures about feeding the poor to one another written by an embittered old author living on fucking welfare is beyond my help. Bonus points: was tight with Greenspan who fucked up on, pretty much everything. 2. I don’t have an HN account older than some hackers with 1k karma on it because I play to the crowd. Quite the contrary. But as a cute sidebar: I make things people want. Never needed a Loopt-style backroom back rub.
aborsy 5y ago
Basically prices will rise for French due to poor competitiveness. This is a growing trend and will not be limited to books. Speaking of “culture” or religion, some practices are bad and better to die. We don’t live in caves anymore after all. It might feel nice to talk about unique culture and identity of isolated tribes in Amazon (the rainforest, not the company); trust me, you don’t want to be in some of these places if you are a woman or disabled. Local shops need to find creative ways to do business (coffee offers, meet ups etc), instead of lobbying that governments kills competition. Or do something else.
- anticodon 5y ago
  Yeah, let's replace all world cultures with monoculture of McDonalds, Coca-Cola and Disneyland. After all, US being able to pour printed money at absurd quantities means it has the best culture in the world, and all the others vastly inferior?.. It's so sad.
- forgotmyoldname 5y ago
  One problem is a lot of people really will buy the cheapest thing without even thinking about it. Then 5 years later they'll complain that wages are down, local shops are closed up, the quality of products they bought went to hell, and the only thing their town has is a raggedy Walmart. It's kind of hard to compete with a multinational trillion dollar corporation that actively seeks to crush your small business through unreasonably low prices and third world manufacturing just to eliminate future competition and secure a profit stream. And now that people thought they'd saved their town from Walmart, Amazon is coming in to clean out the rest.
pyuser583 5y ago
Amazons book selling business has been getting worse. It’s hard to search hard to find books, or books with common names. Shipping times are nothing special. It’s funny how “book selling” went from being Amazon’s core business to a distraction. Edit: I recommend EBay if you want to buy a physical tome.
rossamurphy 5y ago
“French law prohibits free book deliveries but Amazon has circumvented this by charging a single centime (cent). Local book stores typically charge about 5-7 euros ($5.82-8.15) for shipping a book.” Interesting how Amazon charge a “centime”, which hasn’t been legal tender in France since 2002…
president 5y ago
Why not? Didn't China move to shield pretty much every industry from overseas ones?
caslon 5y ago
Is there a word for laws that disproportionately affect people in rural areas so that a government can play protectionist for urban companies? I hate Amazon as much as anyone, but in this case they're definitely not wrong, even if they're probably lying about their reasoning.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > I hate Amazon as much as anyone The fashionable thing to say, indeed! Yet the anyones are all covertly buying from Amazon, working for Amazon, and investing in Amazon.
  - coolso 5y ago
    I’ve cut back on my Amazon purchases 90%. It’s been nice visiting actual stores and getting something same-hour. Sometimes I pay a dollar or two more. But buying local(er) feels good for my soul. It’s nice not having to wonder if every single positive review is real or fake, or if real, if it’s accurate. It’s also nice not having to sift through direct-from-China products with extremely strange names and poorly written box descriptions. Anyway, I’m not sure what your point is. You can hate something and still use it. Especially if that something actively made it much harder to not use it. It’s the same with made in USA goods. Most people crave them. But thanks to our government and corporations, it’s difficult to do it - or at least, do it affordably. Does that mean people prefer made in China? Or that they’re just posturing when they say they don’t like made in China? No.
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      It’s nice not having to wonder if every single positive review is real or fake Unless you're getting your reviews from friends and family, you should still probably wonder if they're fake.
  - saurik 5y ago
    Is this somehow supposed to be inconsistent? One normally doesn't hate Amazon because they are successful, but because they are too successful. This is like claiming making fun of someone who says they hate cigarettes or alcohol because they are "covertly" still using both all the time, or someone who says they hate the food at their school cafeteria despite "covertly" eating it... this "you don't get to say you hate something if you use it" take is ridiculous.
belval 5y ago
This seems to be incentivising the customer to shop in-person instead of online and seems spectacularly uninspired, they could have simply waived taxes on books for companies headquartered in France? Or really anything that isn't simply forcing the customer to pay shipping?
- fallingknife 5y ago
  That would probably violate trade agreements.
amelius 5y ago
And laissez-faire was a French invention.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  Bastiat is unknown in France.
- coldtea 5y ago
  It was one of those inventions you gift to inferior cultures...
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    I have restrained myself from much better jokes today. But if it was not a joke, why do not you argue about it? Edit: thank you! Of course one «want[s] more details», do you think this is the place to type 'Oh, by the way, do not wait for your wife to come home tonight' and just stop there as the rest may be unimportant?!
    - coldtea 5y ago
      >But if it was not a joke, why do not you argue about it? Well, it was neither a joke, nor an argument, that's why. It was a proposition/value judgement expressed in jest. But if you want more details, it's based on the belief that the idea being that "laissez-faire" was not a good concept to begin with. And despite being invented in France back in the day, was never really popular in France or Europe in general (Austrian economists excepted), where the "government is the enemy" idea didn't really took hold in the populace either. We like our social democracy and government regulating some things, thank you very much. So, unless you chance on the statistically atypical (aside from echo bubbly HN/VC style circles) european who hates "government" not for/when doing bad shit, but for being government, and wants no restrictions imposed on corporations, it is more thought of as something neoliberal / Thacherite / Ayn-Rand-loving types would have as their motto - and unironically have their militarry enforce to countries who didn't like it.
  - tpush 5y ago
phtrivier 5y ago
It's funny that we still pin Amazon against bookstores - I was under the impression that Amazon is shipping _everything_ those days, and that books are not what most people go to Amazon for any more.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  On the other hand, typical French chains like FNAC have also expanded into electronics and even the kind of 'marketplace' with third party sellers. If anything the online market in France has more competition than most countries.
- Nasrudith 5y ago
  Yeah plus the fact /bookstores sell through Amazon/ and have for a while. It shows what sorts of dinosaurs are running things.
oh_sigh 5y ago
What is the origin of the law that bans free book deliveries?
- ritonlajoie 5y ago
  Amazon free shipping
Waterluvian 5y ago
Not a big fan of Amazon but I also find it ridiculous and self-sacking to fixate on obsolete ideas. If you have to force a business to exist, maybe it doesn’t need to exist.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Yeah. So many problems caused by businesses who simply refuse to die. Their time has passed but they simply refuse to go away and let humanity move on. The entire copyright industry for example.
  - reissbaker 5y ago
    The entire copyright industry for example. You mean like... books?
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      Physical books? No.
      - reissbaker 5y ago
        How do physical books not depend on copyright? The author still needs to get paid, and printing is fairly cheap.
        matheusmoreira 5y ago
        Physical books are valuable. Some people just prefer them over ebooks. As physical items, making and distributing copies is non-trivial and costs money. Due to their scarce nature, it actually makes sense to sell them.
        reissbaker 5y ago
        Right, but without copyright, anyone can copy and reprint any book that gets written, and the original author doesn't get paid.
AniseAbyss 5y ago
Just switch the epubs or learn English and import books. French wankers information wants to be free.
waynesonfire 5y ago
Wont this just turn to whack a mole? What if amazon.com waives the membership fee if you buy three books?
cromwellian 5y ago
I don't even think Amazon wins on cost. It also wins on convenience and completeness. If I need to find a book or research on a subject, I'm not going to peruse a local book store, I'm going to use a Library Catalog, Amazon Search, or Google Search, from the convenience of my phone or desktop. Local book stores being the same price, or even cheaper, isn't likely to influence my initial tendency to preview on the Web first, and if I search for my book and preview on the Web, I'm much more likely to buy it there too. IMHO, France is only forestalling the inevitable, and eventually local book shops value won't be in selling books, but in providing a hangout place to discuss things, to have book tour speakers in person, to serve hipster coffee and snacks, etc. But as a pure book retail warehouse? I think think this is dead in the long term.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  > eventually local book shops value won't be in selling books You seem to forget about the public that wants (demands) a book retail warehouse. The median shopper does not exhaust the market.
  - cromwellian 5y ago
    > You seem to forget about the public that wants (demands) a book retail warehouse. The median shopper does not exhaust the market. But do they demand a brick and mortar physical book retail warehouse that they have to commute to? I mean if I were to say "Gamers demand a brick-and-mortar retail 'app store' like Gamestop" you'd think it was absurd. Of course people want to just download games from app stores and not have to physically go to a store to get games. The vast majority of the public doesn't go to libraries and doesn't want a big box bookstore. It's why Borders and Barnes-n-Nobles failed. In most of the bookstores I've been to, their value has been communal, as a place to hang out, chill with your laptop, study for school, or meet authors or speakers, but they've never been about the need to shop, because inherently their selection is inferior and their convenience low.
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      > But do they demand a brick and mortar physical book retail warehouse that they have to commute to? Yes, absolutely so. Correctly. The physical collection offers qualities that cannot be found otherwise; the direct contact is one, the browsing the mass of material is another, the environment (when properly created) another. We will reach to the other side of the world occasionally, and travel hundreds of miles normally. It is very different from obtaining computer code, and in some ways more similar to purchasing cloth (which pretty much requires contact, properly and irregardless of custom). > The vast majority of the public doesn't go to libraries Just for this, first of all, there is a problem. You cannot drop a bit like "the vast majority don't wash" like an idle remark about the weather in front of a tsunami. And to the point, in fact I was referring to «the public that wants (demands) a book retail warehouse». Those who are properly interested in the matter, not the casual user.
74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago
20 years late ...

220 points by 80mph 5y ago

They should move into the banned book publishing business instead.

All for a way to protect small businesses which actually pay local taxes vs. Amazon which doesn't pay taxes in the US at all - but not sure a minimum ship price is the best approach. Isn't there a better way, perhaps based on physical presence?

ec109685 5y ago
Amazon pays tons of sales tax.

intricatedetail 5y ago

This is stupid. It will prevent local business from using "free" shipping. Better way will be to just ban Amazon until they start paying right taxes.

sokoloff 5y ago
If they’re not paying the right taxes, why not just prosecute them for violating tax laws?
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  In my country such thing is discretionary for IRS. They would have to request accounting books and go through probably billions of transactions. Plus political pressure.

rafaelturk 5y ago

My experience tells me that the practical outcome of this new regulation is that shipping will become more expensive for books. It will not prevent customers to stop shopping online, so no effect for legacy bookstore.s Like most goverment proposed solutions: This will actually create a new problem not fix the origintal intented cause.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago
Most government proposed solutions create new problems instead of fixing the original? Do you have any data to back that claim up?
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >Most government proposed solutions create new problems instead of fixing the original? Do you have any data to back that claim up?
- rafaelturk 5y ago
  GDPR - General Data Protection Regulation; Europe's complex privacy regulations was meant to curb Google and Facebook abuse of cookies, data and power. It only made it harder for smaller startups or other companies to compete. Meanwhile Bigh Tech, suported by expensive legal, Design and marketing teams evated all new the regulatory burden. Overall GDPR only made Google and Facebok more powerful, and introduced a new legal barrier to challenger startups. Hence helps to consolidate even more their power. And Finally to make it even worse now everyone has to deal with that stupid consent cookie banner in every single website..
Shadonototra 5y ago
Maybe that is not a problem, and will force people to actually get to meet with people Dematerialized everything has its problems too But why bother with the social aspect of things, we are all enslaved consumerist robots anyways..
- pverghese 5y ago

konschubert 5y ago

This will make all online book sales more expensive, not just Amazon's.

arthurcolle 5y ago

Oh wow, Amazon is such a threat! Whatever will Larousse and Hachette do... maybe remain competitive? </3

coldtea 5y ago
I'd rather not have them race to the bottom to "remain competitive". I also rather not have the book industry of a country dependent on the whims (and VC/bottomless pit of money to stay "competitive" while they crush a market) of an American company. Even more so one with no culture and no respect for the book as a work of the spirit whatsoever. So there's that.
- smabie 5y ago
  I guess I would rather have cheaper books/things, don't really care whether a book seller has respect for a book as a "work of spirit" whatever that means.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    The poster with «work of spirit» probably meant "outcome of higher mental work and more, including intellectual". And expressed that it should be respected as a highly dignified product (as opposed to a piece of product conceived for consumerism). Nonetheless, i cannot really interpret that mention of Europe "as opposed to some rest". Edit: having seen further comments, I can. There are areas in Europe in which extremely light judgement and behaviour is socially unpunished and considered normal, or "normal as an exception". (In other areas, nobody with that trait could have reached, say, 18 years of age without getting "straightened".) It must be noted that those areas have a mixed population: some will behave """antisocially""" while many will remain absolutely lovely - it is just tolerance of juvenile thought and behaviour misunderstood by some """beneficiaries""" as acceptance or approval, instead of patience.
    - coldtea 5y ago
      >There are areas in Europe in which extremely light judgement and behaviour is socially unpunished and considered normal, or "normal as an exception" I'm not even sure what that means. Is it about juvenile deliquency ("areas in Europe in which extremely light judgement and behaviour is socially unpunished and considered normal") or some critique about how "elitists" are unbearable, making comments about things being worth more than their monetary value is beyond the pale, and the proper form of social being (that people - and peoples - should be "straigtened" to) is being a mass consumer? If it's the latter, it manages to be way more patronizing that the "elitism" it's supposedly against, and unlike it, with no redeeming qualities either. Or maybe it's about how in some cultures you're "straigtened" to behave like a public advertisement, marketing yourself, with faux politiness, well smoothed talk, and fake smiles -- and how some came to consider this the proper behavior, as opposed as a regression?

fallingknife 5y ago

> More than 20% of the 435 million books sold in France in 2019 were bought online I am very surprised at how low this number is.

jjgreen 5y ago
I'm not: French bookshops are really rather good.
themodelplumber 5y ago
I wonder how many of the hard copies were bought as gifts or purchased by wandering tourists looking for a paper companion.
Bayart 5y ago
Discovery on Amazon is pretty bad. I've never picked a book there after having serendipitously finding my way to it. But I've done exactly that in bookstores countless times. The only websites that give me an experience remotely similar are those of old, specialized publishers. Case in point (in French) : - https://www.lesbelleslettres.com/collections https://www.lesbelleslettres.com/collections - https://www.droz.org/france/section/Collections https://www.droz.org/france/section/Collections - https://www.honorechampion.com/fr/29-champion https://www.honorechampion.com/fr/29-champion

ur-whale 5y ago

To all posters who harp on the "this is stupid" theme: I do agree, but saying this is imo short-sighted. Much more likely, we're witnessing a good old-fashioned lobbying effort bearing fruits at the expense of the consumer and in favor of a small but politically connected group of businesses.

throwaway789257 5y ago

France has a long history of attempting to protect its cultural industries, including film and publishing. It's not wrong. There are other things that are important aside from customer purchasing power. Amazon is using its economies of scale to drive out smaller businesses. It is not unique in that. But the industries that Amazon affects may be unique to the nations that wish to preserve them. Most centralization incrementally kills local industry, including the local culture industry. TV, railroads, chain stores, Wal-mart, you name it -- they are all killing something local.

threatofrain 5y ago
With regards to big players and economies of scale, it's notable that on the other side of the exchange we have more people brought into the fold than ever, whether we're talking about books, movies, or apps. Otherwise there wouldn't be any leverage by which to squeeze out smaller entities. In modern times, this is an incidental cost of access. There's also some understandable doubts about the long term results of this tradeoff, as it is suspected that the final stage of this play is to raise prices again, thereby squeezing access up to some "optimal" equilibrium.
- bsder 5y ago
  > With regards to big players and economies of scale, it's notable that on the other side of the exchange we have more people brought into the fold than ever, whether we're talking about books Are more people actually brought into the fold? The rise of Amazon seems to correlate with fewer people also needing libraries and that libraries store fewer books. The problem is that the prerequisite for using Amazon and libraries with fewer books is the wealth to fund a networked computer and the knowledge how to use it. As someone from a blue collar background whose education utilized the dead trees of the local libraries quite extensively, I'm not at all sure that this wouldn't be an obstacle if I had to go through education today. That is concerning to me. Even as someone highly trained in tech, I find that when I need knowledge from before about 1995, that knowledge has become increasingly difficult to access. The knowledge likely isn't online, and so many of the books have been destroyed that browsing the stacks is quite often unsuccessful nowadays.

reissbaker 5y ago

I'm curious whether French independent bookstores have been harmed much by Amazon. In the US, Amazon has probably actually been a boon — the number of independent bookstores has grown dramatically over the last decade, in part because Amazon squashed the previous era's giant book retailers like Borders and Barnes and Noble, who had been crushing independent bookstores.

pier25 5y ago

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is actually protecting the small book stores, right? Big stores like the Fnac could offer the same shipping prices as Amazon (and maybe they're already doing it). Publishers don't care much who is selling the book as long as it's selling. Obviously this only applies to physical books. Ebooks only account for about 15% of books sold in France unlike the US where it's close to 50% [1]. [1] https://imgur.com/edK0YWP https://imgur.com/edK0YWP

amluto 5y ago
I’m suspicious that Amazon sells fewer books than a good physical bookstore. In a bookstore, people find books they didn’t know they want, and I’ve never found anything interesting on Amazon. Similarly, Amazon does not produce the “whole I’m already here, I might as well buy something else” effect. I’ve long thought that the publishers have has their whole business model wrong in quite a few ways.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > I’ve never found anything interesting on Amazon Probably a lack of your own imagination. There’s a lifetime of interesting books on Amazon.
  - pier25 5y ago
    Same for me. I've found plenty of interesting stuff on Amazon.
    - hellbannedguy 5y ago
      Don't you love their prices? I have seen some crazy prices on Amazon. I have seen prices as high as $1200.00 for a book. Not a rare, or out of print book either. I think some wingding MBA said, "Lets go after the people who don't have the sence to shop around for price." Let our resellers jack up the price to Crazy because we will get our cut, I'm a Watchmaker, and sometimes suprised by the hugh prices I see on books related to my interest. And yes, it's a niche subject, but a quick glance at Ebay usually exposes a reasonable price. (In all fairness, all the big book sellers started doing it. The last holdout was Thriftbooks, but they are no different that Amazon now. Strike that--they realized some people don't care about price, but I have never seen a gut punching price on their website.)

Zababa 5y ago

As an anecdote, where I live Amazon has switched from Colis Privé to Colissimo. With Colis Privé, I used to always get my packages in my mailbox, even if they had to force it in a bit. Nothing was ever damaged because of this. With Colissimo, they come at usually 15h on a week day, may or may not call you, and either give the package to a neighbor or put it at the local post office. In short, the delivery went from great to garbage. As for the current state of the "book industry" where I live: you have 4 choices, either Amazon, an independant bookstore, Decitre (a local bookstore chain), or FNAC (basically Amazon but with physical buildings). Independant bookstores are usually great at recommandations (way better than anything Amazon can do for example), but some of them are just a small-size FNAC, which kind of removes the point of an independant bookstore. As someone that almost only buy books when I know which book I want to buy, so I don't benefit a lot from independant bookstores, but people around me like them a lot.

908B64B197 5y ago
Just get an Amazon Locker. https://www.amazon.com/ulp/view/ https://www.amazon.com/ulp/view/
- Zababa 5y ago
  So instead of going to the ground floor of my appartment building, opening my mail box, taking my package and going back home, I have to take a 7 minute walk to the train station, hope that it's open, take my package, and go back home. That's a worse service than what I got before.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    I meant, in your apartment's building lobby.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      We already have mailboxes for that. Here's an example of what it looks like if you're not familiar: https://cdn-s-www.leprogres.fr/images/A3755E4B-30EC-4378-99A3-FCA7BCE2A867/NW_raw/photo-illustration-progres-frederic-chambert-1581934166.jpg https://cdn-s-www.leprogres.fr/images/A3755E4B-30EC-4378-99A.... They're around 25 cm wide and tall, and 35 cm deep.

deleted 5y ago

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ineedasername 5y ago

So, basically Amazon is in a win-win situation. If the status quo prevails, they're happy. If they have to start charging for shipping, maybe some customers go to a local bookstore but Amazon also has a legal mandate to make more profit in their book sales by not subsidizing shipping out of the wholesale margin. And while some people will buy local a bit more, Amazon sells so many things and the local store may still have to order your book and get it to you slower than Amazon, keeping Amazon as the most convenient option... I don't see a long-term downside for Amazon here.

waynesonfire 5y ago
Oh good one. I guess at the end thats what these comapnies want. If they cant get market share through prices they'll do it in other ways as long as there is a level playing field. Similar to what fb is dealing with. They would welcome any legislation to hamper social media competition since they could then stop buying up potential threats.
xcambar 5y ago
That struck me as well. Another option would have been to support local bookstores by subsidizing transportation, which would have allowed them to lower the price to the point of being competitive with Amazon. But I guess that using public money to help local businesses is not as good as getting the customers to pay and help Amazon at the same time, in the eyes of Macron.
- tdeck 5y ago
  > Another option would have been to support local bookstores by subsidizing transportation Doesn't media mail already do this (in the US)? If you're just sending books, the USPS will deliver them well below cost. I'm not sure what effect it has on local shops.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    I'm not sure media mail is really below cost: it gets shipped on a space-available basis on the trucks, which is why it can take longer to arrive. So it's really only processed when there's excess capacity that would have gone unused. $3 for postage is probably going to cover marginal costs here.

silentsea90 5y ago

I think resisting change only takes you so far. Let systems become efficient. Centralized systems like Amazon will find an antidote in decentralized ones like Shopify. We don't miss horse carriages but I am sure they were part of daily life a 100+ years ago. Disruption and change is part of life.

makeitdouble 5y ago

A lot of comments don’t seem to get the context of this. Book prices are regulated in France [0] and you can’t just discount willy-nilly, in particular new book publications have selling prices set by the publisher. This proposition is coming on top of that: it will block sellers from artificially discounting books by subsidizing shipping cost. It is basically closing a loophole that still allowed Amazon to have lower prices than others. It doesn’t matter if you’re independent, purely online or not. The effect will be to force the same sticker price everywhere, as intended for years now. It may push people to buy local, but it’s only a side effect, and not the directly intended goal (there are other french online retailers that will benefit a lot more from this law). [0] https://www.sne.fr/app/uploads/2017/11/Intervention-Catherine-Blache_prix-unique-du-livre_mars-2015.pdf https://www.sne.fr/app/uploads/2017/11/Intervention-Catherin...

pier25 5y ago
> The effect will be to force the same sticker price everywhere, as intended for years now. So in the end the seller with the best service will win.
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  It just removes the price out of the equation. There will be any number of other factors pushing a customer to choose a store or another. On a personal level, delivery network was a big one, and Amazon wasn't the best on this as you can't choose in most cases (delivery guys randomly calling on my phone because they got lost in another town...). But everyone will have their pet peeve, some people will just chose on how warm they feel about the company.
  - jareklupinski 5y ago
    > It just removes the price out of the equation. I too welcome our post-scarcity future :)
    - makeitdouble 5y ago

benreesman 5y ago

I apologize in advance for generalizing here and there. The point holds. “Capitalism” is what people do when they’re not having sex (and sometimes even then). It is the most powerful economic engine we know about. “Socialism” is the discipline of maximizing overall human welfare within the economic limits. The engine and the steering wheel so to speak. I’m willing to bet those definitions are in no dictionary, but the basic point is roughly what no constitution has yet to get right. The tricky bit is avoiding capture, and I’m optimistic we can do this without shooting all the lobbyists, but it would be a bargain even at that price.

_vbnz 5y ago
> “Capitalism” is what people do when they’re not having sex (and sometimes even then). It is the most powerful economic engine we know about. Capitalism is when people does stuff. Capitalism is a system where the Earth's resources and means of production (factories, machines, etc.) are privately owned. You can have voluntary exchange without that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism
- benreesman 5y ago
  I’m fairly well versed in the barter -> coinage -> credit -> prosperity orthodoxy. Probably the best balance between accessibility and rigor on why that’s provably utter nonsense is “Debt: The First 5000 Years” by David Graeber. Now I know I’m going to piss off the Ayn Rand crowd, but I’m not concerned about that for two reasons: 1. Anyone who enjoys lectures about feeding the poor to one another written by an embittered old author living on fucking welfare is beyond my help. Bonus points: was tight with Greenspan who fucked up on, pretty much everything. 2. I don’t have an HN account older than some hackers with 1k karma on it because I play to the crowd. Quite the contrary. But as a cute sidebar: I make things people want. Never needed a Loopt-style backroom back rub.

aborsy 5y ago

Basically prices will rise for French due to poor competitiveness. This is a growing trend and will not be limited to books. Speaking of “culture” or religion, some practices are bad and better to die. We don’t live in caves anymore after all. It might feel nice to talk about unique culture and identity of isolated tribes in Amazon (the rainforest, not the company); trust me, you don’t want to be in some of these places if you are a woman or disabled. Local shops need to find creative ways to do business (coffee offers, meet ups etc), instead of lobbying that governments kills competition. Or do something else.

anticodon 5y ago
Yeah, let's replace all world cultures with monoculture of McDonalds, Coca-Cola and Disneyland. After all, US being able to pour printed money at absurd quantities means it has the best culture in the world, and all the others vastly inferior?.. It's so sad.
forgotmyoldname 5y ago
One problem is a lot of people really will buy the cheapest thing without even thinking about it. Then 5 years later they'll complain that wages are down, local shops are closed up, the quality of products they bought went to hell, and the only thing their town has is a raggedy Walmart. It's kind of hard to compete with a multinational trillion dollar corporation that actively seeks to crush your small business through unreasonably low prices and third world manufacturing just to eliminate future competition and secure a profit stream. And now that people thought they'd saved their town from Walmart, Amazon is coming in to clean out the rest.

pyuser583 5y ago

Amazons book selling business has been getting worse. It’s hard to search hard to find books, or books with common names. Shipping times are nothing special. It’s funny how “book selling” went from being Amazon’s core business to a distraction. Edit: I recommend EBay if you want to buy a physical tome.

rossamurphy 5y ago

“French law prohibits free book deliveries but Amazon has circumvented this by charging a single centime (cent). Local book stores typically charge about 5-7 euros ($5.82-8.15) for shipping a book.” Interesting how Amazon charge a “centime”, which hasn’t been legal tender in France since 2002…

president 5y ago

Why not? Didn't China move to shield pretty much every industry from overseas ones?

caslon 5y ago

Is there a word for laws that disproportionately affect people in rural areas so that a government can play protectionist for urban companies? I hate Amazon as much as anyone, but in this case they're definitely not wrong, even if they're probably lying about their reasoning.

WalterBright 5y ago
> I hate Amazon as much as anyone The fashionable thing to say, indeed! Yet the anyones are all covertly buying from Amazon, working for Amazon, and investing in Amazon.
- coolso 5y ago
  I’ve cut back on my Amazon purchases 90%. It’s been nice visiting actual stores and getting something same-hour. Sometimes I pay a dollar or two more. But buying local(er) feels good for my soul. It’s nice not having to wonder if every single positive review is real or fake, or if real, if it’s accurate. It’s also nice not having to sift through direct-from-China products with extremely strange names and poorly written box descriptions. Anyway, I’m not sure what your point is. You can hate something and still use it. Especially if that something actively made it much harder to not use it. It’s the same with made in USA goods. Most people crave them. But thanks to our government and corporations, it’s difficult to do it - or at least, do it affordably. Does that mean people prefer made in China? Or that they’re just posturing when they say they don’t like made in China? No.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    It’s nice not having to wonder if every single positive review is real or fake Unless you're getting your reviews from friends and family, you should still probably wonder if they're fake.
- saurik 5y ago
  Is this somehow supposed to be inconsistent? One normally doesn't hate Amazon because they are successful, but because they are too successful. This is like claiming making fun of someone who says they hate cigarettes or alcohol because they are "covertly" still using both all the time, or someone who says they hate the food at their school cafeteria despite "covertly" eating it... this "you don't get to say you hate something if you use it" take is ridiculous.

belval 5y ago

This seems to be incentivising the customer to shop in-person instead of online and seems spectacularly uninspired, they could have simply waived taxes on books for companies headquartered in France? Or really anything that isn't simply forcing the customer to pay shipping?

fallingknife 5y ago
That would probably violate trade agreements.

amelius 5y ago

And laissez-faire was a French invention.

ekianjo 5y ago
Bastiat is unknown in France.
coldtea 5y ago
It was one of those inventions you gift to inferior cultures...
- mdp2021 5y ago
  I have restrained myself from much better jokes today. But if it was not a joke, why do not you argue about it? Edit: thank you! Of course one «want[s] more details», do you think this is the place to type 'Oh, by the way, do not wait for your wife to come home tonight' and just stop there as the rest may be unimportant?!
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >But if it was not a joke, why do not you argue about it? Well, it was neither a joke, nor an argument, that's why. It was a proposition/value judgement expressed in jest. But if you want more details, it's based on the belief that the idea being that "laissez-faire" was not a good concept to begin with. And despite being invented in France back in the day, was never really popular in France or Europe in general (Austrian economists excepted), where the "government is the enemy" idea didn't really took hold in the populace either. We like our social democracy and government regulating some things, thank you very much. So, unless you chance on the statistically atypical (aside from echo bubbly HN/VC style circles) european who hates "government" not for/when doing bad shit, but for being government, and wants no restrictions imposed on corporations, it is more thought of as something neoliberal / Thacherite / Ayn-Rand-loving types would have as their motto - and unironically have their militarry enforce to countries who didn't like it.
- tpush 5y ago

phtrivier 5y ago

It's funny that we still pin Amazon against bookstores - I was under the impression that Amazon is shipping _everything_ those days, and that books are not what most people go to Amazon for any more.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
On the other hand, typical French chains like FNAC have also expanded into electronics and even the kind of 'marketplace' with third party sellers. If anything the online market in France has more competition than most countries.
Nasrudith 5y ago
Yeah plus the fact /bookstores sell through Amazon/ and have for a while. It shows what sorts of dinosaurs are running things.

oh_sigh 5y ago

What is the origin of the law that bans free book deliveries?

ritonlajoie 5y ago
Amazon free shipping

Waterluvian 5y ago

Not a big fan of Amazon but I also find it ridiculous and self-sacking to fixate on obsolete ideas. If you have to force a business to exist, maybe it doesn’t need to exist.

matheusmoreira 5y ago
Yeah. So many problems caused by businesses who simply refuse to die. Their time has passed but they simply refuse to go away and let humanity move on. The entire copyright industry for example.
- reissbaker 5y ago
  The entire copyright industry for example. You mean like... books?
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    Physical books? No.
    - reissbaker 5y ago
      How do physical books not depend on copyright? The author still needs to get paid, and printing is fairly cheap.
      - matheusmoreira 5y ago
        Physical books are valuable. Some people just prefer them over ebooks. As physical items, making and distributing copies is non-trivial and costs money. Due to their scarce nature, it actually makes sense to sell them.
        reissbaker 5y ago
        Right, but without copyright, anyone can copy and reprint any book that gets written, and the original author doesn't get paid.

AniseAbyss 5y ago

Just switch the epubs or learn English and import books. French wankers information wants to be free.

waynesonfire 5y ago

Wont this just turn to whack a mole? What if amazon.com waives the membership fee if you buy three books?

cromwellian 5y ago

I don't even think Amazon wins on cost. It also wins on convenience and completeness. If I need to find a book or research on a subject, I'm not going to peruse a local book store, I'm going to use a Library Catalog, Amazon Search, or Google Search, from the convenience of my phone or desktop. Local book stores being the same price, or even cheaper, isn't likely to influence my initial tendency to preview on the Web first, and if I search for my book and preview on the Web, I'm much more likely to buy it there too. IMHO, France is only forestalling the inevitable, and eventually local book shops value won't be in selling books, but in providing a hangout place to discuss things, to have book tour speakers in person, to serve hipster coffee and snacks, etc. But as a pure book retail warehouse? I think think this is dead in the long term.

mdp2021 5y ago
> eventually local book shops value won't be in selling books You seem to forget about the public that wants (demands) a book retail warehouse. The median shopper does not exhaust the market.
- cromwellian 5y ago
  > You seem to forget about the public that wants (demands) a book retail warehouse. The median shopper does not exhaust the market. But do they demand a brick and mortar physical book retail warehouse that they have to commute to? I mean if I were to say "Gamers demand a brick-and-mortar retail 'app store' like Gamestop" you'd think it was absurd. Of course people want to just download games from app stores and not have to physically go to a store to get games. The vast majority of the public doesn't go to libraries and doesn't want a big box bookstore. It's why Borders and Barnes-n-Nobles failed. In most of the bookstores I've been to, their value has been communal, as a place to hang out, chill with your laptop, study for school, or meet authors or speakers, but they've never been about the need to shop, because inherently their selection is inferior and their convenience low.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    > But do they demand a brick and mortar physical book retail warehouse that they have to commute to? Yes, absolutely so. Correctly. The physical collection offers qualities that cannot be found otherwise; the direct contact is one, the browsing the mass of material is another, the environment (when properly created) another. We will reach to the other side of the world occasionally, and travel hundreds of miles normally. It is very different from obtaining computer code, and in some ways more similar to purchasing cloth (which pretty much requires contact, properly and irregardless of custom). > The vast majority of the public doesn't go to libraries Just for this, first of all, there is a problem. You cannot drop a bit like "the vast majority don't wash" like an idle remark about the weather in front of a tsunami. And to the point, in fact I was referring to «the public that wants (demands) a book retail warehouse». Those who are properly interested in the matter, not the casual user.

74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago

20 years late ...