9 ms·

"Irssi does not take a political stance"

49 points by waon 5y ago

josephcsible 5y ago
Yikes. That commit isn't "not [taking] a political stance"; it's taking the political stance of supporting Andrew Lee's hostile takeover.
- kanbara 5y ago
  exactly this. prolly committed by an old cis white man
FeepingCreature 5y ago
I don't understand what's supposed to be political here. We're not getting off Freenode because we don't like Andrew Lee's politics, we do because we have no faith at all in his skill as a network operator.
- simlevesque 5y ago
  Some people who have an agenda against the "left" feel like everything is a witchhunt nowadays.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    This is politics in the sense of "office politics". Not everything is a right vs. left divide.
    - immibis 5y ago
      If you have not noticed the left vs right divide on freenode, you haven't been on freenode recently.
      - josephcsible 5y ago
        I believe that there was a left vs. right divide on Freenode. I just don't believe that it maps cleanly onto this new Andrew Lee vs. Libera divide.
  - FeepingCreature 5y ago
    I am very skeptical of certain aspects of the modern left. "Cancel culture" deeply worries me. Lee does not speak for me, and I think his behavior is much closer to cancel culture than that of his "opponents". Frankly, Lee wishes this was a right vs left thing.
    - orwin 5y ago
      I have trouble seeing "cancel culture" as something other than shots at overton's window on the liberal side (not really "left" tbh), and a dose of boycott. I find it disturbing that the far right, followed by the conservative right and more recently by the economic liberals could do this as they wished for almost 15 years, and when social liberals do this, there is that much pushback. I mean it is not fair. I understood what the fascist where doing five years ago, and pushed anarchists friends from my youth to do the same on their side, and they did. And i was probably not alone in this (hence the "eat the rich" and "property is theft" narratives coming back in MSM). Liberals probably understood it even earlier and started this "cancel culture" stint. It is just pushback. Why would you be worried for a political ideology pushing back? I think cancel culture is okay and fair game.
      - FeepingCreature 5y ago
        I mean, this is all totally unrelated to the topic. > I understood what the fascist where doing five years ago, and pushed anarchists friends from my youth to do the same on their side, and they did. I mean, my view is: I was against this when the right did it; I haven't stopped being against it when the left started doing it. It's not like I tolerated it from the right any more when they tried - or try - to do it to spaces I hang out in. But socially, I just don't have much overlap with the right wing. As a result, I tend to mostly worry about the left doing it, because the left doing it is what actually impacts me. edit: And honestly, I thought we had an agreement about this? In the US, the left is even called the "liberals". Like, I thought there was a broad agreement that the left wing wasn't going to be doing this sort of thoughtcrime, othering, bad opinions = bad people, exclusion instead of argument bullshit. But apparently any weapon that's good enough for the right is fine for the left? We cannot allow a cancel gap, I guess. Bah. Used to be I thought the left was better.
- labster 5y ago
  Andrew Lee is a pretender to be Crown Prince of Korea, which kinda sorta makes it state seizure of community property. But I think OP probably meant it in the sense of taking a controversial stand... which it wasn’t until this commit.
pimlottc 5y ago
The missing context seems to be that is a revert of an earlier commit last week [0] that switched the "default" network used in the help documentation from freenode to libera.chat. 0: https://github.com/irssi/irssi/commit/1ba48840a112dfacf13cbbf6b77c1e3489fefcf8 https://github.com/irssi/irssi/commit/1ba48840a112dfacf13cbb...
koreanguy 5y ago
nerd wars
waon 5y ago
I wonder if this is the official stance of the project itself, since this commit was authored by a person who hadn't made a single commit for more than 5 years. https://github.com/irssi/irssi/commits?author=GeertHauwaerts https://github.com/irssi/irssi/commits?author=GeertHauwaerts
vore 5y ago
I think it's a little ironic that someone who hasn't seemed to have committed to the codebase of irssi for years has decided to come in and put their foot down in such an aggressive way. Funny, I feel like I JUST saw something like this happen somewhere else...
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  We all saw it in many other places.
- waon 5y ago
  It's quite concerning that ailin-nemui, who made the prior commit migrating to Libera currently isn't listed as part of the irssi organization[1]. According to GitHub stats, this is the person behind most of the code in irssi[2]. [1]: https://github.com/orgs/irssi/people https://github.com/orgs/irssi/people [2]: https://github.com/irssi/irssi/graphs/contributors https://github.com/irssi/irssi/graphs/contributors
  - vore 5y ago
    Quite clearly they had sanctioned commit access to irssi over such a long period of time, so I don't think there's anything untoward about that. In all likelihood, they probably just had their commit access revoked, or are just hiding their membership as part of the organization.
  - bahorn 5y ago
    Worth noting that it's quite common for people to not be publicly listed as part of Github organizations. The archive.org snapshot of the organization page from February [1] shows the same member count, so suspect that's the reason. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210224203331/https://github.com/irssi https://web.archive.org/web/20210224203331/https://github.co...
    - waon 5y ago
      > Worth noting that it's quite common for people to not be publicly listed as part of Github organizations. My bad, I didn't know that was a thing.
LangerJan 5y ago
I don't get the general "we are not political" idea. Everything is political. The conscious decision to stay put is as political as everything else. What they want to say is: "We don't want to get involved in this and save our face while doing so"
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > Everything is political. I wouldn't go that far. Irssi could have not taken a political stance, by ignoring what happened and not committing last week's change. But now that that's done, reverting it was political too. You can avoid a political issue, but once you ring the bell, you can't un-ring it.
  - kanbara 5y ago
    nah m8. everything is political. they’re basically saying they’re oke with the destruction of a community and the hostile intentions against FOSS because of one man’s megalomaniacal psyche. anyone that thinks most decisions are apolitical are living in a vacuum tube or are just too privileged to give a shit. too many ppl in tech dont want to put themselves in another’s shoes
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      > they’re basically saying they’re oke with the destruction of a community and the hostile intentions against FOSS because of one man’s megalomaniacal psyche. I agree that the revert we're discussing did this and so was political. I'm saying that in the hypothetical world where this commit didn't exist but neither did last week's that it reverted, there irssi truly would be apolitical still.
      - FeepingCreature 5y ago
        I'm not convinced that inaction is inherently apolitical, but it would certainly be more defensible.
  - 5y ago
kanbara 5y ago
and of course his name seems dutch. smh
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gerikson 5y ago
As a long time irssi user and fan, this revert disturbed me, so I joined #irssi (on Libera, natch) to ask about it. Log of my interaction with Geert: https://paste.debian.net/1198991/ https://paste.debian.net/1198991/. It's been edited to remove join/parts. My take: the irssi community has not made a decision to move from Freenode to Libera. The commit pointing the default network from Freenode to Libera was thus premature. The revert title could have been worded better.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- apple4ever 5y ago
  Yup I think the problem here is the commit. All it had to say was "reverting as this was premature". Even better "irc.example.com" to never make it a problem again.

49 points by waon 5y ago

Yikes. That commit isn't "not [taking] a political stance"; it's taking the political stance of supporting Andrew Lee's hostile takeover.

kanbara 5y ago
exactly this. prolly committed by an old cis white man

FeepingCreature 5y ago

I don't understand what's supposed to be political here. We're not getting off Freenode because we don't like Andrew Lee's politics, we do because we have no faith at all in his skill as a network operator.

simlevesque 5y ago
Some people who have an agenda against the "left" feel like everything is a witchhunt nowadays.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  This is politics in the sense of "office politics". Not everything is a right vs. left divide.
  - immibis 5y ago
    If you have not noticed the left vs right divide on freenode, you haven't been on freenode recently.
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      I believe that there was a left vs. right divide on Freenode. I just don't believe that it maps cleanly onto this new Andrew Lee vs. Libera divide.
- FeepingCreature 5y ago
  I am very skeptical of certain aspects of the modern left. "Cancel culture" deeply worries me. Lee does not speak for me, and I think his behavior is much closer to cancel culture than that of his "opponents". Frankly, Lee wishes this was a right vs left thing.
  - orwin 5y ago
    I have trouble seeing "cancel culture" as something other than shots at overton's window on the liberal side (not really "left" tbh), and a dose of boycott. I find it disturbing that the far right, followed by the conservative right and more recently by the economic liberals could do this as they wished for almost 15 years, and when social liberals do this, there is that much pushback. I mean it is not fair. I understood what the fascist where doing five years ago, and pushed anarchists friends from my youth to do the same on their side, and they did. And i was probably not alone in this (hence the "eat the rich" and "property is theft" narratives coming back in MSM). Liberals probably understood it even earlier and started this "cancel culture" stint. It is just pushback. Why would you be worried for a political ideology pushing back? I think cancel culture is okay and fair game.
    - FeepingCreature 5y ago
      I mean, this is all totally unrelated to the topic. > I understood what the fascist where doing five years ago, and pushed anarchists friends from my youth to do the same on their side, and they did. I mean, my view is: I was against this when the right did it; I haven't stopped being against it when the left started doing it. It's not like I tolerated it from the right any more when they tried - or try - to do it to spaces I hang out in. But socially, I just don't have much overlap with the right wing. As a result, I tend to mostly worry about the left doing it, because the left doing it is what actually impacts me. edit: And honestly, I thought we had an agreement about this? In the US, the left is even called the "liberals". Like, I thought there was a broad agreement that the left wing wasn't going to be doing this sort of thoughtcrime, othering, bad opinions = bad people, exclusion instead of argument bullshit. But apparently any weapon that's good enough for the right is fine for the left? We cannot allow a cancel gap, I guess. Bah. Used to be I thought the left was better.
labster 5y ago
Andrew Lee is a pretender to be Crown Prince of Korea, which kinda sorta makes it state seizure of community property. But I think OP probably meant it in the sense of taking a controversial stand... which it wasn’t until this commit.

pimlottc 5y ago

The missing context seems to be that is a revert of an earlier commit last week [0] that switched the "default" network used in the help documentation from freenode to libera.chat. 0: https://github.com/irssi/irssi/commit/1ba48840a112dfacf13cbbf6b77c1e3489fefcf8 https://github.com/irssi/irssi/commit/1ba48840a112dfacf13cbb...

koreanguy 5y ago

nerd wars

waon 5y ago

I wonder if this is the official stance of the project itself, since this commit was authored by a person who hadn't made a single commit for more than 5 years. https://github.com/irssi/irssi/commits?author=GeertHauwaerts https://github.com/irssi/irssi/commits?author=GeertHauwaerts

vore 5y ago

I think it's a little ironic that someone who hasn't seemed to have committed to the codebase of irssi for years has decided to come in and put their foot down in such an aggressive way. Funny, I feel like I JUST saw something like this happen somewhere else...

dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
We all saw it in many other places.
waon 5y ago
It's quite concerning that ailin-nemui, who made the prior commit migrating to Libera currently isn't listed as part of the irssi organization[1]. According to GitHub stats, this is the person behind most of the code in irssi[2]. [1]: https://github.com/orgs/irssi/people https://github.com/orgs/irssi/people [2]: https://github.com/irssi/irssi/graphs/contributors https://github.com/irssi/irssi/graphs/contributors
- vore 5y ago
  Quite clearly they had sanctioned commit access to irssi over such a long period of time, so I don't think there's anything untoward about that. In all likelihood, they probably just had their commit access revoked, or are just hiding their membership as part of the organization.
- bahorn 5y ago
  Worth noting that it's quite common for people to not be publicly listed as part of Github organizations. The archive.org snapshot of the organization page from February [1] shows the same member count, so suspect that's the reason. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210224203331/https://github.com/irssi https://web.archive.org/web/20210224203331/https://github.co...
  - waon 5y ago
    > Worth noting that it's quite common for people to not be publicly listed as part of Github organizations. My bad, I didn't know that was a thing.

LangerJan 5y ago

I don't get the general "we are not political" idea. Everything is political. The conscious decision to stay put is as political as everything else. What they want to say is: "We don't want to get involved in this and save our face while doing so"

josephcsible 5y ago
> Everything is political. I wouldn't go that far. Irssi could have not taken a political stance, by ignoring what happened and not committing last week's change. But now that that's done, reverting it was political too. You can avoid a political issue, but once you ring the bell, you can't un-ring it.
- kanbara 5y ago
  nah m8. everything is political. they’re basically saying they’re oke with the destruction of a community and the hostile intentions against FOSS because of one man’s megalomaniacal psyche. anyone that thinks most decisions are apolitical are living in a vacuum tube or are just too privileged to give a shit. too many ppl in tech dont want to put themselves in another’s shoes
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    > they’re basically saying they’re oke with the destruction of a community and the hostile intentions against FOSS because of one man’s megalomaniacal psyche. I agree that the revert we're discussing did this and so was political. I'm saying that in the hypothetical world where this commit didn't exist but neither did last week's that it reverted, there irssi truly would be apolitical still.
    - FeepingCreature 5y ago
      I'm not convinced that inaction is inherently apolitical, but it would certainly be more defensible.
- 5y ago

kanbara 5y ago

and of course his name seems dutch. smh

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gerikson 5y ago

As a long time irssi user and fan, this revert disturbed me, so I joined #irssi (on Libera, natch) to ask about it. Log of my interaction with Geert: https://paste.debian.net/1198991/ https://paste.debian.net/1198991/. It's been edited to remove join/parts. My take: the irssi community has not made a decision to move from Freenode to Libera. The commit pointing the default network from Freenode to Libera was thus premature. The revert title could have been worded better.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
apple4ever 5y ago
Yup I think the problem here is the commit. All it had to say was "reverting as this was premature". Even better "irc.example.com" to never make it a problem again.