8 ms·

Hang on a second, you consider Jan 2014 to be "very, very old"? Commercial software often has dependencies on libraries going back decades.

diarrhea 6y ago
A finished software product that gets regular updates is old by the time it turns 7, I'd agree on that. Dependencies on libraries is a different story, there's only so many ways you can implement a functionality, and some of these happen to be decades old!
Youden 6y ago
It can be "very, very old" in its context. If a new release comes out every year, support duration is 5 years and you're 2 years past EOL, I'd agree that the software can be called "very, very old".
- jacquesm 6y ago
  And that's where things go off the rails. A release that is only supported for five years is a hobby project. The kind of software projects that make the world go round continue past the lives of their original authors and can easily span decades. 5 years is just enough for the original shake-out.
  - pas 6y ago
    Yes, ok, thanks, the Python foundation will immediately spend a lot of time and money to support releases for 2 decades. How could they not know!? /s That out of the way, you're right that some niches require a lot longer cycles, but it's the big big biiiig advantage of FOSS. Downstream can maintain it for as long as they wish. As you said things got shaken out by the community for free basically, and if some serious software is so so serious that upgrading and retesting/certifying is somehow more expensive than trying to airgap an EOLed pile of libs (while at the same time it needs support) then the stakeholders can do it.
    - xorcist 6y ago
      No sarcasm needed, Red Hat happily invests time and money in supporting it until 2024. That might have been an easy eay to provide upstream releases too, had the Python maintainers not been intent on using deprecations as an instrument to get the community moving. That strategy doesn't work very well however, as we've seen when TLS 1.2 was held off from Python 2.
  - di4na 6y ago
    I mean i am sure we would do that if any of the user company would want to pay the price for that. None of them want. You probably multiply the price by at least 10 (i would say add at least +1.5 to the multiplier for every year of support and that is probably highly conservative). Come back when they are ready to pay for that.
  - gchamonlive 6y ago
    > A release that is only supported for five years is a hobby project. I believe what you are trying to say is that you chose the wrong tool for the job. It is really condescending to lash out on other projects like that just because they don't share the same needs as you. They owe you nothing. Python is free and open source, just fork the damn language spec and support it yourself.
    - icebraining 6y ago
      The discussion is about ArcGIS, not Python.
      - gchamonlive 6y ago
        The discussion is about a specific version of ArcGIS that only supports a version of python that reached its end of life, so I beg to differ. My point stands: if you had the need for a really long supported tech, in the order of decades, choosing a tech based on a dependency that had a clear life span of 5 years or so was a poor choice. If, still, you need that, you can support it yourself, by forking your own version, but python owes ArcGIS nothing.
  - SSLy 6y ago
    >A release that is only supported for five years is a hobby project. Sure, I'll let my Product Lead know that we're selling toys that only skiddies, not telecos NOCs use.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      Totally agreed, but check upthread for a comment that literally says this tool is unsuitable for work where lives depend on it. And for telcos that's pretty much a given.
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      Having worked in a number of Telco NOCs, that's probably not the best example for the point you're trying to make.
  - Hello71 6y ago
    > A release that is only supported for five years is a hobby project. and how much are you paying for support?
    - blhack 6y ago
      It looks like probably around $3000/year. https://www.esri.com/en-us/arcgis/products/arcgis-online/buy https://www.esri.com/en-us/arcgis/products/arcgis-online/buy
  - robertlagrant 6y ago
    > The kind of software projects that make the world go round continue past the lives of their original authors and can easily span decades The name on the software might remain unchanged for decades. That doesn't mean that the software remains identical for that time.
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    Are you really accusing ArcGIS of being a "hobby project"?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

diarrhea 6y ago

A finished software product that gets regular updates is old by the time it turns 7, I'd agree on that. Dependencies on libraries is a different story, there's only so many ways you can implement a functionality, and some of these happen to be decades old!

Youden 6y ago

It can be "very, very old" in its context. If a new release comes out every year, support duration is 5 years and you're 2 years past EOL, I'd agree that the software can be called "very, very old".

jacquesm 6y ago
And that's where things go off the rails. A release that is only supported for five years is a hobby project. The kind of software projects that make the world go round continue past the lives of their original authors and can easily span decades. 5 years is just enough for the original shake-out.
- pas 6y ago
  Yes, ok, thanks, the Python foundation will immediately spend a lot of time and money to support releases for 2 decades. How could they not know!? /s That out of the way, you're right that some niches require a lot longer cycles, but it's the big big biiiig advantage of FOSS. Downstream can maintain it for as long as they wish. As you said things got shaken out by the community for free basically, and if some serious software is so so serious that upgrading and retesting/certifying is somehow more expensive than trying to airgap an EOLed pile of libs (while at the same time it needs support) then the stakeholders can do it.
  - xorcist 6y ago
    No sarcasm needed, Red Hat happily invests time and money in supporting it until 2024. That might have been an easy eay to provide upstream releases too, had the Python maintainers not been intent on using deprecations as an instrument to get the community moving. That strategy doesn't work very well however, as we've seen when TLS 1.2 was held off from Python 2.
- di4na 6y ago
  I mean i am sure we would do that if any of the user company would want to pay the price for that. None of them want. You probably multiply the price by at least 10 (i would say add at least +1.5 to the multiplier for every year of support and that is probably highly conservative). Come back when they are ready to pay for that.
- gchamonlive 6y ago
  > A release that is only supported for five years is a hobby project. I believe what you are trying to say is that you chose the wrong tool for the job. It is really condescending to lash out on other projects like that just because they don't share the same needs as you. They owe you nothing. Python is free and open source, just fork the damn language spec and support it yourself.
  - icebraining 6y ago
    The discussion is about ArcGIS, not Python.
    - gchamonlive 6y ago
      The discussion is about a specific version of ArcGIS that only supports a version of python that reached its end of life, so I beg to differ. My point stands: if you had the need for a really long supported tech, in the order of decades, choosing a tech based on a dependency that had a clear life span of 5 years or so was a poor choice. If, still, you need that, you can support it yourself, by forking your own version, but python owes ArcGIS nothing.
- SSLy 6y ago
  >A release that is only supported for five years is a hobby project. Sure, I'll let my Product Lead know that we're selling toys that only skiddies, not telecos NOCs use.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Totally agreed, but check upthread for a comment that literally says this tool is unsuitable for work where lives depend on it. And for telcos that's pretty much a given.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    Having worked in a number of Telco NOCs, that's probably not the best example for the point you're trying to make.
- Hello71 6y ago
  > A release that is only supported for five years is a hobby project. and how much are you paying for support?
  - blhack 6y ago
    It looks like probably around $3000/year. https://www.esri.com/en-us/arcgis/products/arcgis-online/buy https://www.esri.com/en-us/arcgis/products/arcgis-online/buy
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  > The kind of software projects that make the world go round continue past the lives of their original authors and can easily span decades The name on the software might remain unchanged for decades. That doesn't mean that the software remains identical for that time.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  Are you really accusing ArcGIS of being a "hobby project"?

deleted 6y ago

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