7 ms·

Since when is java slowly dieing?

andai 6y ago
It's been 3 billion devices for twenty years :)
snazz 6y ago
Java mindshare has been dying for a long time. That said, it's still taught in schools and all sorts of companies still use it (including "cool" ones like Google and Apple).
- The_Colonel 6y ago
  Java mindshare might be slowly shrinking but it is very, very far from dying.
  - rektide 6y ago
    I'd ask, what is sustaining java? Where are the replacement techies picking up the torch, where are youngsters seeing java? I have some answers. It's not a lost cause. Death is not likely, & I do appreciate a lot of java (cdi rocks, microprofile is doing great, performance is good, it has excellent big data tools & many serious pieces of infra are built with it). But how java can retain liveliness, over time, & how the experience & knowledge base continues, is a real challenge. Being on Android helps a lot but also it's a radically different immensely unlike the server side world, with its own elaborate platform specific architectures & libraries. There's not a lot of places java has a hold on UI/ux centered systems, outside Android, so it risks becoming too invisible.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      When SAP rewrites their stack to something else other than Java, Amazon or Alibaba stop contributing to Java, then I start worrying. Microsoft decided that Java death is so imminent that they are now an OpenJDK contributor, collaborate with Red-Hat on VSCode Java support, have bought jClarity and Java has first class support on Azure.
      - doteka 6y ago
        I guess a Roman, asked circa 300 AD how he feels about the decline of the empire, would have replied similarly. Java’s mindshare just isn’t where the exciting things in this field are happening. It’s more the domain of overengineered “big data” platforms and clunky enterprise software. Yes, SAP employs a ton of java developers I’m sure, but many devs would rather switch careers than work on anything resembling a crufty ERP. Thus, the ecosystem stagnates, due to the dead see effect - everyone who could push it forward into new areas has no interest being anywhere near it. And stagnation is a long, drawn out death all the same. It still has a ton of momentum, and millions of outsourcing devs who only know Java, so it will be with us for a while - but make no mistake, the decline started quite a while ago.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        On my domains only Java or .NET stand a chance to win RFPs, and if anything .NET is the one having troubles, because many are unsure what Microsoft actually wants to do with it, and slowly pissed with the multiple rewrites where there is always something left behind. I only see RFPs for Java based technology going up.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        yrio 6y ago
        Do you think .NET is currently being badly managed compared to Java? And do you think it will negatively affect .NET's long term future?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Kind of, Microsoft seems to trying to fix UWP, while trying to turn .NET into a cross platform runtime that has an eco-system that has been Windows only for the last 20 years. So while they are doing lots of nice performance improvements, there are plenty of business not so happy that their 20 year investments don't run on .NET Core, and if a rewrite is needed (e.g. WCF vs gRPC) then why not just jump into something else. Just see the lengthy roadmap, and the considerations that not everyone was happy with "AOT" (packing everything into an exe that unzips on execution). https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/form-factors.md https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/fo... Also check the repositories from Project Reunion, it is pretty much WIP right now.
    - SiVal 6y ago
      "Where are youngsters seeing java?" Funny you should ask that. If a high school kid takes Advanced Placement (AP) Computer Science in the US (including the kids here in my neighborhood in Silicon Valley), the only language taught is Java. Kids who want my help with their programming projects or classes here in the Valley, even the undergrad CS majors at Stanford, are always going to ask about one of three languages: Python, JavaScript, or Java. In the shadow of the Apple spaceship, the iPhone is exactly as Apple intends: an appliance for you to communicate with friends and buy things from Apple, certainly not a computer for you to program. Nobody ever asks me about Swift. If you want to program a computer--sorry, "code"--it's always and only Python, JavaScript, or Java.
- nzly 6y ago
  It is nothing about Java or even mindshare, it is all about money, shareholders, new companies, or even just have to reshape a wheel again. This type of subject is a pseudo-proposition. When many people are using Java, some guys need to create something new (may not really new) to gain the financial interest. Of course they have to pick up something bad about Java or whatever languages and then fill his new stuff in the marketplace, but actually nothing really new. C, C++, Java, Php, Ruby, Python and do on. When everyone is familiar with something or know something for long, the capital and money stop moving, which is bad for game players such as new companies in Silicon Valley and money makers from Wall Street.
- spiritwander 6y ago
  java is not platform-dependent,it is a platform..
kybernetikos 6y ago
Well, part of my point is that it's very very slow, and because of that, there are all kinds of points I could pick for 'since when'. Maybe I'd pick when apple removed the default install from mac os, or maybe I'd pick when browsers made it impossible to run applets, or maybe I'd pick when the major java IDEs started pushing other languages like kotlin or xtend, or maybe I'd pick the oracle acquisition (never a good thing), or maybe I'd pick the release of go - a language squarely targetting pretty much the only niche that java has left (enterprise development of servers by mixed ability teams), maybe I'd pick the point when java development felt like it became more like configuring metadata for frameworks than actually coding, or maybe I'd pick when google started showing kotlin as the default language for developing on Android rather than Java. Here's google trends for java: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=java https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=j... Java-the-language is not going away any time soon, but if you expect it to do anything except decline, I think the future will be disappointing.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Yep, so much decline with 80% of the mobile phones, even if it is based on Android Java, on top of which do you think all Android tools run on? Then do you think the likes of SAP, Adobe, Amazon, Azure, Ricoh, Gemalto, PTC, Azul,.... are going to port their golden eggs to Go now?
  - sinsterizme 6y ago
    This doesn’t refute his point, Java the language is separate from the JVM. And those big companies will follow the decreasing Java usage trend due to developer supply and demand. Anecdotally, it seems pretty obvious some of those companies are already doing this by writing new stuff in other, better languages when possible! To me that’s a good indicator a language is slowly dying, maybe you use a different definition.
    - andyroid 6y ago
      Pretty much any language running on the JVM will make it dead simple to import and use libraries written in Java - in fact one of the main reasons to choose the JVM is the huge amount of high quality libraries available. So while true that Java != JVM, it’s not as simple as that either.
findjashua 6y ago
JVM as a platform is doing just fine, but other JVM languages seem to be taking over Java’s territory: 1. Kotlin replaced Java for Android development 2. Scala has become the primary language for some of the major tools in the data stack - spark, kafka etc I’m sure there are other examples as well
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Java is going away from JVM as much as UNIX is loosing C. 1. Politics due to how Google screwed Sun with Android Java 2. Scala is a tiny dot on JVM world and it remains to be seen how Scala 3.0 will be taken up, specially if Python like syntax is actually adopted
  - reader_mode 6y ago
    Well UNIX (or Linux more importantly) is "losing" C, C++ and more recently Rust are slowly displacing it. It's still probably going to be the ABI everything is based on but the language itself is not a first choice for many and that number is increasing over time. Is that what you were implying ? It doesn't sound like it from the rest of the comment because you seem to disagree that Java is losing mindshare on JVM.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      First get a UNIX clone to take over the world written in something else other than C.
      - bitwize 6y ago
        https://redox-os.org https://redox-os.org
        pjmlp 6y ago
        That is not an UNIX. Having some level of POSIX compliance doesn't turn an OS into UNIX, unless you mean Windows is a UNIX as well.
pjmlp 6y ago
It is a HN thing, on my circles the choice is only Java or .NET and it isn't going to change for years to come. Java is dying so fast than nowadays even Microsoft contributes to OpenJDK, having bought jClarity in the process.
- nullsense 6y ago
  Where I am it's largely dominated by Java and .NET with bits of other languages here and there. I jumped ship to .NET after Oracle changed their licencing. I don't like them as a vendor and don't want to be tied to them. Java will still live to a pretty ripe old age but it does feel like it's a little over the hill nowadays.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    As if Microsoft would be an angel vendor. .NET Core also doesn't run in all platforms where there is a Java implementation and not everyone is happy to rewrite their .NET Framework into Core, while Microsoft is in mix of leaving again stuff behind like the ongoing discussions about CoreRT, .NET Native, Project Reunion, MAUI vs Blazor vs WPF vs Forms show.
    - nullsense 6y ago
      Cool. I'm happy enough with it all, so that's me sorted.
  - lenkite 6y ago
    The problem with .NET is that Microsoft have a proven history of seeing the next shiny over the hill and dropping support for existing frameworks and libs while the "new and improved" framework is rolled out. See ! This way is better! Well, until the next better way comes up within a few years. I know of teams who have moved to Java simply to avoid the churn. Many folks prefer the boring but stable Java ecosystem.
Shorn 6y ago
You're on HN. If it's not growing explosively - it's dead. Do I really need a "/s" here?
- alephu5 6y ago
  As well as this, I think it's also perceived to be a clunky old language. Our modern languages have much more ergonomic build systems, are much less verbose and have coding conventions tailored to modern tastes. This is important, so I predict that over the next few years, as the 20-30 year olds of today gain more senior positions, they're going to choose python, JavaScript, kotlin, golang or rust for new projects.

It's been 3 billion devices for twenty years :)

Java mindshare has been dying for a long time. That said, it's still taught in schools and all sorts of companies still use it (including "cool" ones like Google and Apple).

The_Colonel 6y ago
Java mindshare might be slowly shrinking but it is very, very far from dying.
- rektide 6y ago
  I'd ask, what is sustaining java? Where are the replacement techies picking up the torch, where are youngsters seeing java? I have some answers. It's not a lost cause. Death is not likely, & I do appreciate a lot of java (cdi rocks, microprofile is doing great, performance is good, it has excellent big data tools & many serious pieces of infra are built with it). But how java can retain liveliness, over time, & how the experience & knowledge base continues, is a real challenge. Being on Android helps a lot but also it's a radically different immensely unlike the server side world, with its own elaborate platform specific architectures & libraries. There's not a lot of places java has a hold on UI/ux centered systems, outside Android, so it risks becoming too invisible.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    When SAP rewrites their stack to something else other than Java, Amazon or Alibaba stop contributing to Java, then I start worrying. Microsoft decided that Java death is so imminent that they are now an OpenJDK contributor, collaborate with Red-Hat on VSCode Java support, have bought jClarity and Java has first class support on Azure.
    - doteka 6y ago
      I guess a Roman, asked circa 300 AD how he feels about the decline of the empire, would have replied similarly. Java’s mindshare just isn’t where the exciting things in this field are happening. It’s more the domain of overengineered “big data” platforms and clunky enterprise software. Yes, SAP employs a ton of java developers I’m sure, but many devs would rather switch careers than work on anything resembling a crufty ERP. Thus, the ecosystem stagnates, due to the dead see effect - everyone who could push it forward into new areas has no interest being anywhere near it. And stagnation is a long, drawn out death all the same. It still has a ton of momentum, and millions of outsourcing devs who only know Java, so it will be with us for a while - but make no mistake, the decline started quite a while ago.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        On my domains only Java or .NET stand a chance to win RFPs, and if anything .NET is the one having troubles, because many are unsure what Microsoft actually wants to do with it, and slowly pissed with the multiple rewrites where there is always something left behind. I only see RFPs for Java based technology going up.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        yrio 6y ago
        Do you think .NET is currently being badly managed compared to Java? And do you think it will negatively affect .NET's long term future?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Kind of, Microsoft seems to trying to fix UWP, while trying to turn .NET into a cross platform runtime that has an eco-system that has been Windows only for the last 20 years. So while they are doing lots of nice performance improvements, there are plenty of business not so happy that their 20 year investments don't run on .NET Core, and if a rewrite is needed (e.g. WCF vs gRPC) then why not just jump into something else. Just see the lengthy roadmap, and the considerations that not everyone was happy with "AOT" (packing everything into an exe that unzips on execution). https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/form-factors.md https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/fo... Also check the repositories from Project Reunion, it is pretty much WIP right now.
  - SiVal 6y ago
    "Where are youngsters seeing java?" Funny you should ask that. If a high school kid takes Advanced Placement (AP) Computer Science in the US (including the kids here in my neighborhood in Silicon Valley), the only language taught is Java. Kids who want my help with their programming projects or classes here in the Valley, even the undergrad CS majors at Stanford, are always going to ask about one of three languages: Python, JavaScript, or Java. In the shadow of the Apple spaceship, the iPhone is exactly as Apple intends: an appliance for you to communicate with friends and buy things from Apple, certainly not a computer for you to program. Nobody ever asks me about Swift. If you want to program a computer--sorry, "code"--it's always and only Python, JavaScript, or Java.
nzly 6y ago
It is nothing about Java or even mindshare, it is all about money, shareholders, new companies, or even just have to reshape a wheel again. This type of subject is a pseudo-proposition. When many people are using Java, some guys need to create something new (may not really new) to gain the financial interest. Of course they have to pick up something bad about Java or whatever languages and then fill his new stuff in the marketplace, but actually nothing really new. C, C++, Java, Php, Ruby, Python and do on. When everyone is familiar with something or know something for long, the capital and money stop moving, which is bad for game players such as new companies in Silicon Valley and money makers from Wall Street.
spiritwander 6y ago
java is not platform-dependent,it is a platform..

kybernetikos 6y ago

Well, part of my point is that it's very very slow, and because of that, there are all kinds of points I could pick for 'since when'. Maybe I'd pick when apple removed the default install from mac os, or maybe I'd pick when browsers made it impossible to run applets, or maybe I'd pick when the major java IDEs started pushing other languages like kotlin or xtend, or maybe I'd pick the oracle acquisition (never a good thing), or maybe I'd pick the release of go - a language squarely targetting pretty much the only niche that java has left (enterprise development of servers by mixed ability teams), maybe I'd pick the point when java development felt like it became more like configuring metadata for frameworks than actually coding, or maybe I'd pick when google started showing kotlin as the default language for developing on Android rather than Java. Here's google trends for java: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=java https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=j... Java-the-language is not going away any time soon, but if you expect it to do anything except decline, I think the future will be disappointing.

pjmlp 6y ago
Yep, so much decline with 80% of the mobile phones, even if it is based on Android Java, on top of which do you think all Android tools run on? Then do you think the likes of SAP, Adobe, Amazon, Azure, Ricoh, Gemalto, PTC, Azul,.... are going to port their golden eggs to Go now?
- sinsterizme 6y ago
  This doesn’t refute his point, Java the language is separate from the JVM. And those big companies will follow the decreasing Java usage trend due to developer supply and demand. Anecdotally, it seems pretty obvious some of those companies are already doing this by writing new stuff in other, better languages when possible! To me that’s a good indicator a language is slowly dying, maybe you use a different definition.
  - andyroid 6y ago
    Pretty much any language running on the JVM will make it dead simple to import and use libraries written in Java - in fact one of the main reasons to choose the JVM is the huge amount of high quality libraries available. So while true that Java != JVM, it’s not as simple as that either.

findjashua 6y ago

JVM as a platform is doing just fine, but other JVM languages seem to be taking over Java’s territory: 1. Kotlin replaced Java for Android development 2. Scala has become the primary language for some of the major tools in the data stack - spark, kafka etc I’m sure there are other examples as well

pjmlp 6y ago
Java is going away from JVM as much as UNIX is loosing C. 1. Politics due to how Google screwed Sun with Android Java 2. Scala is a tiny dot on JVM world and it remains to be seen how Scala 3.0 will be taken up, specially if Python like syntax is actually adopted
- reader_mode 6y ago
  Well UNIX (or Linux more importantly) is "losing" C, C++ and more recently Rust are slowly displacing it. It's still probably going to be the ABI everything is based on but the language itself is not a first choice for many and that number is increasing over time. Is that what you were implying ? It doesn't sound like it from the rest of the comment because you seem to disagree that Java is losing mindshare on JVM.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    First get a UNIX clone to take over the world written in something else other than C.
    - bitwize 6y ago
      https://redox-os.org https://redox-os.org
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        That is not an UNIX. Having some level of POSIX compliance doesn't turn an OS into UNIX, unless you mean Windows is a UNIX as well.

pjmlp 6y ago

It is a HN thing, on my circles the choice is only Java or .NET and it isn't going to change for years to come. Java is dying so fast than nowadays even Microsoft contributes to OpenJDK, having bought jClarity in the process.

nullsense 6y ago
Where I am it's largely dominated by Java and .NET with bits of other languages here and there. I jumped ship to .NET after Oracle changed their licencing. I don't like them as a vendor and don't want to be tied to them. Java will still live to a pretty ripe old age but it does feel like it's a little over the hill nowadays.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  As if Microsoft would be an angel vendor. .NET Core also doesn't run in all platforms where there is a Java implementation and not everyone is happy to rewrite their .NET Framework into Core, while Microsoft is in mix of leaving again stuff behind like the ongoing discussions about CoreRT, .NET Native, Project Reunion, MAUI vs Blazor vs WPF vs Forms show.
  - nullsense 6y ago
    Cool. I'm happy enough with it all, so that's me sorted.
- lenkite 6y ago
  The problem with .NET is that Microsoft have a proven history of seeing the next shiny over the hill and dropping support for existing frameworks and libs while the "new and improved" framework is rolled out. See ! This way is better! Well, until the next better way comes up within a few years. I know of teams who have moved to Java simply to avoid the churn. Many folks prefer the boring but stable Java ecosystem.

Shorn 6y ago

You're on HN. If it's not growing explosively - it's dead. Do I really need a "/s" here?

alephu5 6y ago
As well as this, I think it's also perceived to be a clunky old language. Our modern languages have much more ergonomic build systems, are much less verbose and have coding conventions tailored to modern tastes. This is important, so I predict that over the next few years, as the 20-30 year olds of today gain more senior positions, they're going to choose python, JavaScript, kotlin, golang or rust for new projects.