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"People quickly forget that software was distributed on the web long before the App Store existed." Independent software development was an absolute wasteland.

"People quickly forget that software was distributed on the web long before the App Store existed." Independent software development was an absolute wasteland. It was extremely hard to get a user to give you money outside of a few extremely fortified ghettos (Steam, for instance, which takes a 30% cut as well). Begware was the most common tactic. Even now with multiple options, while everyone piles on Apple, we should note that iOS was the single most profitable platform for Epic, across all platforms. Apple did more to liberate payments from a user than any other platform. Through trust, through standardization and normalization, and even through things like the wide availability of App Store gift cards (which are often heavily discounted - $85 for $100 of App Store gift cards at Costco many times through the year). Elsewhere people are arguing that Windows is a wonderful platform because look, it's so open. Okay, go and make money from Windows users and see how great it is. Unless your name is Microsoft or Adobe, you are in for a really, really rough time of it. You'll get 100% of nothing. As always, of course this is downvoted. Anyone looking to HN for rational, reality-based discussion might find it a bit disappointing. Here apparently the Windows ISV market is a vibrant, lucrative market. Everyone here is profiting from it, right? (LOL -- close to none of you are). This is farce.

monadic2 6y ago
Not sure why you're downvoted. It seems like the unavoidable conclusion is that there are no longer any good places to make or find decent consumer software without having a corporate entity get their undeserving cut.
- hn_check 6y ago
  A bunch of my comments were flagged as well. HN is an absolute joke. There is zero rational discussion on here. It's just zealots contriving their bullshit.
_qulr 6y ago
> Independent software development was an absolute wasteland. I had a 10 year career in that "wasteland". > we should note that iOS was the single most profitable platform for Epic, across all platforms Citation? From what I've seen, that's not actually true. > Okay, go and make money from Windows users and see how great it is. For a time, the Windows version of our product was my company's biggest money-maker. It seems that in recent years though Microsoft as a company has pivoted away from Windows as their primary product. Away from desktop, toward "the cloud". I personally find that unfortunate, but I'm not a stockholder. > The whole torch mob anti-Apple angle seems entirely detached from actual reality. I'm not anti-Apple, I'm pro-Macintosh.
- hn_check 6y ago
  "I had a 10 year career in that "wasteland"." From your CV, apparently developing for the Mac. Actually at a well known developer that probably had just a handful of employees. It isn't really a counterpoint. "Citation? From what I've seen, that's not actually true." Epic doesn't release these numbers, yet from third party analysis in the 30 days before being kicked from the respective stores, Fortnite made $43M on iOS, and a paltry $3.3M on Android, worldwide. Those iOS numbers would make it represent 40% of all Fortnite revenue, which would already significantly over-represent the userbase. Nonetheless, it's funny when someone demands a citation and then gives their own belief minus citation as a counterpoint.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    > Epic doesn't release these numbers, yet from third party analysis in the 30 days before being kicked from the respective stores, Fortnite made $43M on iOS, and a paltry $3.3M on Android, worldwide. "Sensor Tower puts iOS spending in Fortnite at $1.2 billion since it was launched on the App Store in early 2018." That was from a month ago. https://www.usgamer.net/articles/fortnite-ios-removal-hurt-epics-revenue-more-than-google-play https://www.usgamer.net/articles/fortnite-ios-removal-hurt-e... Fortnite total revenue was $2.4 billion in 2018, $1.8 billion in 2019. Not sure we have figures to date for 2020, but assuming it's approximately $1 billion, then iOS would be ~23% of total Fortnite revenue. Is that the largest platform? Maybe, maybe not.
- j-pb 6y ago
  Thanks for having been a part of this golden age of computing. There's not a day that goes by where I don't reminiscent about the time when companies like "rogue amoeba", "made by sofa", "monster", or "Strange Flavour" and people like Alexander Repty, Austin Sarner and Brian Ball made really great mac software. There was so much community, and such an optimistic mood with things like the Appsterdam movement. And then it all crashed and burned, because Apple decided to get greedy, and that 99cents was going to be the default App price, with 30cents going to Apple. Those are scraps, and nobody who wants to make an artisanal niche app to scratch their own itch, and maybe sell it, can live from that money. It was either win the lottery, or starve. Apple killed its own ecosystem, most app store apps suck nowadays. It's ironic that they were the ones with an ad saying "we mistake abundance with choice". I wish all the old mac devs would get together and collaboratively write a good GUI-toolkit for linux and a new Userland. Right now there is not a single good operating system. Having all those apps on linux would be a dream come true. But a dream it is...
TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
> Independent software development was an absolute wasteland. It was extremely hard to get a user to give you money outside of a few extremely fortified ghettos Utter nonsense. Shrink-wrapped and downloadable software in the Windows world was all over the place using activation/serial codes either thru email or on a CD. Two examples: VueScan https://www.hamrick.com/ https://www.hamrick.com/ SnagIt screen capture (which is now cloud based, I think. I still use an old version)
- hn_check 6y ago
  Your two fringe examples hardly render that "utter nonsense". There have been over a billion Windows devices in play for 3+ decades. The average Window user has paid for at most anti-virus, Word/Office, and sometimes Adobe. It is rare to find someone who has paid a penny for anything else. Even critical software that people used day after day like WinZip and WinRAR became a meme for being something that went unpaid for. Yes, some guy bought an activation code, but that guy was a serious exception. The pool of developers working on commercial Windows software was absolutely minuscule. And today, with 1.5 billion Windows devices, how many people are making commercial software for Windows, outside of Adobe and Microsoft? That numbers is a rounding error. Despite it being, conceptually, the most amazing, incredible, liberating platform.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    > It is rare to find someone who has paid a penny for anything else. Citation needed. Who are all those people attending the Microsoft developers conference every year? Who were all the people in the audience for Ballmer's infamous "Developers, developers, developers" chant? You're claiming the nonexistence of something that clearly exists.
    - hn_check 6y ago
      "You're claiming the nonexistence of something that clearly exists." You have become incredibly insincere in your arguments, or you are seriously misunderstanding this discussion. There are ARMIES of corporate developers making internal apps for corporations around the globe. I, like probably 80% of HN, spent much of our career doing this. That isn't commercial software. It has zero relevance to any App Store, Windows Store, or getting money from users. Corporate developers make up the vast bulk of participants at those conferences (based upon first hand knowledge). We have MSDN subscriptions, go to conferences, and then we make some internal timesheet app or glue with an accounting system.
pier25 6y ago
> we should note that iOS was the single most profitable platform for Epic, across all platforms Almost 80% of Fortnite players are on console, so I very much doubt that's even remotely true. https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/newzoos-battle-royale-sentiment-study-understanding-the-phenomena-and-what-draws-players-to-particular-franchises/ https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/newzoos-battle-royale-s...
- hn_check 6y ago
  I would respond sincerely and absolutely eviscerate your ignorant nonsense, but this is HN so it is wholly undeserving of that. Instead - lol, ok
  - pier25 6y ago
    If you have better data, then by all means, do share it with us.
  - dang 6y ago
    Since you've been ignoring our repeated requests to start following the site guidelines, I've banned this account. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24087933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24087933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23646850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23646850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23433981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23433981
    - pier25 6y ago
      Thank you
hn_check 6y ago
Please flag the above comment. It won't let me delete it now, and debating with this crew of simpletons is just entirely unrewarding.
xtracto 6y ago
Tell that to John Carmack or Lord British or even Microsoft. The wasteland of the 80s / 90s surely ended up their careers.

monadic2 6y ago

Not sure why you're downvoted. It seems like the unavoidable conclusion is that there are no longer any good places to make or find decent consumer software without having a corporate entity get their undeserving cut.

hn_check 6y ago
A bunch of my comments were flagged as well. HN is an absolute joke. There is zero rational discussion on here. It's just zealots contriving their bullshit.

_qulr 6y ago

> Independent software development was an absolute wasteland. I had a 10 year career in that "wasteland". > we should note that iOS was the single most profitable platform for Epic, across all platforms Citation? From what I've seen, that's not actually true. > Okay, go and make money from Windows users and see how great it is. For a time, the Windows version of our product was my company's biggest money-maker. It seems that in recent years though Microsoft as a company has pivoted away from Windows as their primary product. Away from desktop, toward "the cloud". I personally find that unfortunate, but I'm not a stockholder. > The whole torch mob anti-Apple angle seems entirely detached from actual reality. I'm not anti-Apple, I'm pro-Macintosh.

hn_check 6y ago
"I had a 10 year career in that "wasteland"." From your CV, apparently developing for the Mac. Actually at a well known developer that probably had just a handful of employees. It isn't really a counterpoint. "Citation? From what I've seen, that's not actually true." Epic doesn't release these numbers, yet from third party analysis in the 30 days before being kicked from the respective stores, Fortnite made $43M on iOS, and a paltry $3.3M on Android, worldwide. Those iOS numbers would make it represent 40% of all Fortnite revenue, which would already significantly over-represent the userbase. Nonetheless, it's funny when someone demands a citation and then gives their own belief minus citation as a counterpoint.
- _qulr 6y ago
  > Epic doesn't release these numbers, yet from third party analysis in the 30 days before being kicked from the respective stores, Fortnite made $43M on iOS, and a paltry $3.3M on Android, worldwide. "Sensor Tower puts iOS spending in Fortnite at $1.2 billion since it was launched on the App Store in early 2018." That was from a month ago. https://www.usgamer.net/articles/fortnite-ios-removal-hurt-epics-revenue-more-than-google-play https://www.usgamer.net/articles/fortnite-ios-removal-hurt-e... Fortnite total revenue was $2.4 billion in 2018, $1.8 billion in 2019. Not sure we have figures to date for 2020, but assuming it's approximately $1 billion, then iOS would be ~23% of total Fortnite revenue. Is that the largest platform? Maybe, maybe not.
j-pb 6y ago
Thanks for having been a part of this golden age of computing. There's not a day that goes by where I don't reminiscent about the time when companies like "rogue amoeba", "made by sofa", "monster", or "Strange Flavour" and people like Alexander Repty, Austin Sarner and Brian Ball made really great mac software. There was so much community, and such an optimistic mood with things like the Appsterdam movement. And then it all crashed and burned, because Apple decided to get greedy, and that 99cents was going to be the default App price, with 30cents going to Apple. Those are scraps, and nobody who wants to make an artisanal niche app to scratch their own itch, and maybe sell it, can live from that money. It was either win the lottery, or starve. Apple killed its own ecosystem, most app store apps suck nowadays. It's ironic that they were the ones with an ad saying "we mistake abundance with choice". I wish all the old mac devs would get together and collaboratively write a good GUI-toolkit for linux and a new Userland. Right now there is not a single good operating system. Having all those apps on linux would be a dream come true. But a dream it is...

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago

> Independent software development was an absolute wasteland. It was extremely hard to get a user to give you money outside of a few extremely fortified ghettos Utter nonsense. Shrink-wrapped and downloadable software in the Windows world was all over the place using activation/serial codes either thru email or on a CD. Two examples: VueScan https://www.hamrick.com/ https://www.hamrick.com/ SnagIt screen capture (which is now cloud based, I think. I still use an old version)

hn_check 6y ago
Your two fringe examples hardly render that "utter nonsense". There have been over a billion Windows devices in play for 3+ decades. The average Window user has paid for at most anti-virus, Word/Office, and sometimes Adobe. It is rare to find someone who has paid a penny for anything else. Even critical software that people used day after day like WinZip and WinRAR became a meme for being something that went unpaid for. Yes, some guy bought an activation code, but that guy was a serious exception. The pool of developers working on commercial Windows software was absolutely minuscule. And today, with 1.5 billion Windows devices, how many people are making commercial software for Windows, outside of Adobe and Microsoft? That numbers is a rounding error. Despite it being, conceptually, the most amazing, incredible, liberating platform.
- _qulr 6y ago
  > It is rare to find someone who has paid a penny for anything else. Citation needed. Who are all those people attending the Microsoft developers conference every year? Who were all the people in the audience for Ballmer's infamous "Developers, developers, developers" chant? You're claiming the nonexistence of something that clearly exists.
  - hn_check 6y ago
    "You're claiming the nonexistence of something that clearly exists." You have become incredibly insincere in your arguments, or you are seriously misunderstanding this discussion. There are ARMIES of corporate developers making internal apps for corporations around the globe. I, like probably 80% of HN, spent much of our career doing this. That isn't commercial software. It has zero relevance to any App Store, Windows Store, or getting money from users. Corporate developers make up the vast bulk of participants at those conferences (based upon first hand knowledge). We have MSDN subscriptions, go to conferences, and then we make some internal timesheet app or glue with an accounting system.

pier25 6y ago

> we should note that iOS was the single most profitable platform for Epic, across all platforms Almost 80% of Fortnite players are on console, so I very much doubt that's even remotely true. https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/newzoos-battle-royale-sentiment-study-understanding-the-phenomena-and-what-draws-players-to-particular-franchises/ https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/newzoos-battle-royale-s...

hn_check 6y ago
I would respond sincerely and absolutely eviscerate your ignorant nonsense, but this is HN so it is wholly undeserving of that. Instead - lol, ok
- pier25 6y ago
  If you have better data, then by all means, do share it with us.
- dang 6y ago
  Since you've been ignoring our repeated requests to start following the site guidelines, I've banned this account. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24087933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24087933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23646850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23646850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23433981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23433981
  - pier25 6y ago
    Thank you

hn_check 6y ago

Please flag the above comment. It won't let me delete it now, and debating with this crew of simpletons is just entirely unrewarding.

xtracto 6y ago

Tell that to John Carmack or Lord British or even Microsoft. The wasteland of the 80s / 90s surely ended up their careers.