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How Inuit parents teach kids to control their anger (2019)
- dwohnitmok 6y agoThe article seems fairly problematic. https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/b0so4h/how_inuit_parents_teach_kids_to_control_their/eihcuf8/ https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/b0so4h/how_... EDIT: Well this is proving to be a pretty wild ride. As far as I can tell both this post and its replies (by TheAdamAndChe and ebg13) are getting voted down, which is very surprising to me (I would've expected either/or not both). That leads me to believe there's something wrong with my link. Does HN know something about my link that I don't?
- TheAdamAndChe 6y agoNo offense, but "problematic" is a weasel word[1]. Based on your link, a better way to describe it is inaccurate or misleading. The link describes how intuit used to spank their children in the past, and how the studies the post is based off of were poorly designed. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weasel%20word https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weasel%20word
- ebg13 6y ago"Problematic" is a kind word for cherry-picked, misinterpreted, hypergeneralized, and contrary to available evidence with a hefty dose of noble savage xenoromanticism thrown in.
- tasogare 6y agoI’m always amazed at how English speakers took some loanwords from French, then derive their meanings up to the point they became offensive (examples: problematic, oriental). The issue is that for non-English native speakers those overloads are easy to miss (and usually absent from dictionaries), and a post can be made pretty trollish accidentally.
- hutzlibu 6y agoThat is indeed a problematic point, for non native speakers.
- Der_Einzige 6y agoWe have so much french in this language. Ever wonder why it's called a "vending machine"? Look up the french verb for "to sell" It's everywhere. English usually has a competing french and German derived word for each experience.
- tasogare 6y agoYes and even some like factory that sounds totally English actually come from French too. One day I’ll work harder on my French language merhod for English speakers that is based on cognates. There is so much that can be shortcuted with little etymology thrown in.
- ebg13 6y agoI don't consider it offensive. I consider it vague and euphemistic. It happens with all non-specific language. The word "problematic" is vague; it doesn't say anything about what the problems are, just that someone thinks something is wrong somehow. The only thing the reader can do given vague words is guess at what the writer meant. Then _that_ phenomenon collides with idiomatic euphemism. Vague words become euphemisms exactly because of how vague and weak they are, weakness being basically the entire purpose of a euphemism. IMO the first thing that people should be taught in school about writing (assuming schools bother teaching anything about writing) is that writers should always use the most concrete, specific, unambiguous words possible. But we don't learn that, so the world doesn't communicate that way, and so the world falls apart.
- rightbyte 6y agoIt is noa names, like eg. bear or how characters in HP speak about Voldemort. An old superstitious concept. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa-name https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa-name
- dwohnitmok 6y agoIf people find this link valuable can somebody please just rephrase this comment however it's meant to be phrased and repost it so that it doesn't getting buried due to my poor wording? It's surreal to me to see a bunch of sibling comments higher up arguing over its conclusions when the article's premise is in serious question.
- laretluval 6y agoI think your downvotes are entirely because you used the word “problematic” which some people feel is often used to shut down debate. A shame, because your link pretty convincingly shows that the article’s claims about the Inuit are simply false.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y agodwohnitmok in response to your edit, I agree this is the issue. Your link was fantastic and adds to the conversation.
- dwohnitmok 6y agoBut you're getting voted down too! (Maybe not anymore?) And ebg13 is getting absolutely destroyed.
- ebg13 6y agoHN's gonna HN. I try not to worry too much about it.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y agoThat happens on HN, it can take a while for consensus to stabilize. Then another comment can come along and destabilize the consensus. I try not to think about votes and instead of think about the signal-to-noise ratio of my comments. As long as we all try to learn and contribute positively to the community, occasional downvoted comments are fine.
- rovolo 6y agoAny discussion of parenting and Native peoples needs to include the context of the Indian Residential Schools. The state (Canada and the US) would force Native children to attend boarding schools with restricted parental visitation rights (legally compulsory in Canada 1894-1948, and de-facto compulsory for the 20 years before and after). The schools would punish the children for 'acting Native' (wearing traditional clothing, not speaking english, etc). It was a program of forced cultural assimilation (sometimes called 'cultural genocide') which was supported by saying that Native parents were bad influences on their children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc... Any attempt to remove Native children from their parents needs to acknowledge the use of children by the government to attempt to wipe out Native culture. Around a quarter of Native children were removed from their homes in the US by child protective services and permanently placed in non-Native homes. This was such an issue that the Indian Child Welfare act requires that Native tribes and Native family have the first opportunity to claim custodianship over Native children removed from the home. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Child_Welfare_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Child_Welfare_Act So for the comment you link to, I have the following objections: - Native people were raised in government schools (until 1970) which used corporal punishment regularly. They're criticizing parenting styles which the government taught parents as kids. - Canada and the US have a long history of removing lots of kids from Native parents. Of course Native leaders are going to care about CPS rules - The SSC guy is completely ignoring how shitty White Canadians have treated Native people when he compares abuse rates between Inuit and "Western" (White) populations. This reeks of a long history of calling Native people "savage".
- dwohnitmok 6y agoHmmmmm now we're getting somewhere if this is the heart of the objections. However, this seems like it's covered by > Also, the Inuit have changed a lot recently as they get influenced by European culture (but NPR did their interview with Inuit this year, who talk as if they're describing the present). Granted I'm sure you'd find this far too lenient in terms of phrasing, something more like "Traditional Inuit culture was both destroyed by what was effectively Western cultural and actual imperialism and retroactively viewed and criticized through a warped Western lens." But the basic essence of that is still addressed by Scott's comment. It may not be the way things used to be, and it may not be the "fault" of the Inuits at all, nor may it even be the right perspective to view Inuit culture. Nonetheless the empirical observations made in this article seem to be in direct opposition to multiple other sources of data we have. That seems bad. More specifically it suggests the article is suffering greatly from selection bias and its conclusions are therefore suspect.
- dang 6y agoPlease don't go on about downvotes like that. It's tediously meta and breaks the site rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- dwohnitmok 6y agoMy apologies, all the more so because this is something I dislike in comments myself. I was genuinely surprised by this though in a way I haven't been by previous downvotes. "Everyone" so to speak were getting down votes and the only common factor I could find was the link itself, which as far as I could tell was entirely unproblematic unless it was referencing some studies which were widely acknowledged to be bad scholarship. Regardless I'll take the humbling reminder to read the guidelines and my own comments more closely.
- dang 6y agoAppreciated! I know it sucks to get a mod reply like that.
- blueicecubes 6y agoThis was discussed a year ago at length: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19396563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19396563
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- bobthechef 6y agoFirst, we mustn't discount the importance of properly expressed anger. Just as there is such a thing as excess or inappropriate anger, there is also such a thing as deficient and inappropriate anger. What "inappropriate" and "excess"/"deficient" anger are will require mature situational judgement on the part of the parent. There's no way around that, and defaulting to "no displays of anger" is not a true substitute. Anger is in fact necessary to convey, both to children and adults (though the degree and manner will vary), the gravity of an injustice and this communication enables remorse, repentance, seeking forgiveness, and edification. It is one elements in shaping discipline and character. That doesn't mean flying off the handle like a madman, of course. Reason should remain intact. Second, lying to children with silly stories is not a solution. It's one thing if you tell the child a funny story with the understanding that the child doesn't really believe it, but rather finds it both amusing to imagine and comprehends the underlying message. It's an entirely different thing to outright lie. Lying is never admissible, certainly never noble, and will only work to undermine trust toward parents and consequently parental authority. P.S. Is there perhaps an element of romanticism in this article?
- hutzlibu 6y ago"P.S. Is there perhaps an element of romanticism in this article?" Totally. With all the readings about controlling anger, I missed a reference to the inuit custom of violence towards women. https://www.pauktuutit.ca/abuse-prevention/gender-based-violence/ https://www.pauktuutit.ca/abuse-prevention/gender-based-viol... Although, maybe that violence is without anger. Would that be better?
- oxymoran 6y agoObviously just being angry but keeping cool while saying something like, “I am angry” is fine. I think that the point is that usually anger comes with raised voices, yelling or worse which is not going to work. I don’t know if you have kids but I noticed that yelling at my 3 year old son only lead to him yelling at me in other circumstances. Similarly, even yelling at the dog to stop barking had the same result. I was teaching him to yell not how to behave. I do disagree with the article in that timeouts are highly effective if you get rid of the yelling aspect.
- 6y ago
- tzs 6y ago> Winter temperatures could easily dip below minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit Trivia: you can omit "Fahrenheit" after -40 without introducing ambiguity. -40 F == -40 C. (You can assume it is not K or Ra because those place their 0 points at absolute zero so -40 K or -40 Ra is not possible).
- corty 6y agoKelvin is only used without "degree" or °. So -40°C would be 233K.
- albatross13 6y agoJust to add some clarification, this only works at -40. -44F is -42.2222C.
- 0_____0 6y agoThat's clever, but you're going to confuse readers and interrupt the flow of the article if you omit a unit where people expect one.
- nicky0 6y agoHence "Trivia".
- twic 6y agoCould be degrees Reaumur though.
- meritganset 6y agoYou _can_ omit it, but why would you? And it absolutely introduces ambiguity for those who don't happen to know where these scales are equal.
- dragosmocrii 6y agoI had to read the title a couple times to make sense of it. I was reading "Intuit Parents", thinking it was some new product...
- bch 6y agoCBC interview/documentary from Ideas with Paul Kennedy “Never in Anger” parts 1 and 2 - 1) https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2263114454 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2263114454 2) https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2263120301 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2263120301
- trhway 6y agoleading/teaching by example. Show, don't tell. I wonder though what selection pressure made for anger to be a non-beneficial trait in the Inuit society. In our typical society anger, while definitely not always, is a beneficial trait frequently and sufficiently enough to be practiced by many. It seems that in Inuit society anger is almost never a beneficial trait and thus is actively suppressed (so behavioral adaptation while curiously not fully selected out at biological level - probably the key here is "to control anger" in the sense of being in control, not eliminating completely, so that means an ability to deploy only when needed in a very controlled/measured/managed fashion. So may be by showing no anger while it is clearly supposed be there the Inuit parents teach not a "no anger" (which would be a lie as the other commenters pointed out), and instead they teach of how to be a master of your anger instead of a slave to it).
- gameswithgo 6y agoHarsh enough environment that people who couldn't keep their cool probably left, or died, was my guess.
- choeger 6y agoSo a large part is to lie? I don't know. I mean, yes, I get angry by my children, and I don't know any parent that does not. Probably I get angry too often too early. But I really try hard never to lie to my kids. I even show them that I am angry because I think that's part of the game. Kids need to learn that other people have emotions. But telling stories about horrific creatures to avoid dangerous places? I don't know. I mean yes, I guess it works, but why not tell them the (horrific) truth?
- Humdeee 6y agoThat's what I took away as well. At some point all these stories have to be retracted and the truth told. It was a big deal for us as kids about Santa, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc. What if there were hundreds more though? What if the parent only corrected a portion of these? What if the situation never arose again where the child would identify the lie and instead propagate it to offspring? Perhaps we've just solved how religions start... /s
- yaktubi 6y agoWe used to tell children the truth. Just read the old fairy tales—Pinocchio, Little Red Riding Hood, etc.
- sparker72678 6y agoThis isn't a lie in the way we'd typically talk about lies. It isn't meant to deceive. It's a myth. As a child grows and discovers that there isn't really a monster in the sea, are they going to resent their parents when they understand the explanation? I think that's the difference here.
- darkerside 6y agoReminds me of Luke and Obi Wan. What the parents are saying is true, from a certain point of view.
- gameswithgo 6y agoPerhaps these kinds of magical ideas that we teach our kids makes them more susceptible to believing various religions/cults are real. That would be a downside.
- draw_down 6y agoAnswer: social pressure/coercion. > Even just showing a smidgen of frustration or irritation was considered weak and childlike, Briggs observed. Because it's so unacceptable to show anger or frustration, I would suspect there is some release valve for it which is kept under wraps. I don't believe that these things magically disappear just because they're not acceptable. These researchers who have lived among populations inevitably come away with a perception of that population which reflects what those people wanted to show. Like, if you lived among Catholics for a year in 1974, how much would you learn about the conspiracy to protect priests who abused children? You'd probably learn a hell of a lot more about how they celebrate Christmas or whatever. Nobody wants to talk about the underbelly of their community, people mostly don't even want to acknowledge it to themselves.
- organsnyder 6y agoMy kids heard this story on the air while we were in the car. My then-eight-year-old remarked, "Yeah, that wouldn't work with us."
- perfmode 6y agoit's funny how the world works > a Harvard graduate student made a landmark discovery about the nature of human anger. the article doesn't credit the inuits with the discovery. > By contrast, Briggs seemed like a wild child, even though she was trying very hard to control her anger. "My ways were so much cruder, less considerate and more impulsive," she told the CBC. "[I was] often impulsive in an antisocial sort of way. I would sulk or I would snap or I would do something that they never did." but instead credits Briggs, who is the one exhibiting primitive behavior and being exposed to the higher path
- nix23 6y agoDoes not seam to work very well either: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/23/canada-indigenous-murder-victims https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/23/canada-indigen...
- Scaevolus 6y agoDo you have any evidence that those murders occur _within_ their communities by people raised like this?
- nix23 6y ago>Do you have any evidence that those murders occur _within_ their communities by people raised like this? No, do you have any evidence that they are NOT raised like this?
- Scaevolus 6y agoThe Inuit are around 4% of Canada's Indigenous population, so I'd be surprised if many of the people committing those murders were raised with this particular traditional Inuit anger-management strategy.
- nix23 6y ago"Inuit make up only 5% of Canada’s population, but in 2018 they made up 22% of the country’s homicide victims." >so I'd be surprised if many of the people committing those murders were raised with this particular traditional Inuit anger-management strategy. So what do you wanna really say with that?
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y agoSome of the stuff in here is obvious stuff that nonetheless is great to get reminders of, like leading by example. There was a unique piece that really intrigues me: Putting on a play/putting on a drama. "Putting on a drama" seems like a pretty romanticized way to say it, but if I understand correctly, it's practicing better responses to events that led to bad behavior. "Johnny, I'm going to steal your toy, and instead of hitting me like you hit your brother, use your words." That kind of explicit practice/rehearsal of skills isn't something I'd have thought of, but it makes total sense as a valuable way to teach and learn.
- duskwuff 6y agoAnd it seems to me that deliberately teaching and practicing these methods in early childhood -- like in school -- could have profound implications. Right now, my impression is that public schools tend to take the approach of letting social skills develop organically through peer interactions. This seems like a huge missed opportunity.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago> schools tend to take the approach of letting social skills develop organically through peer interactions I believe this leads to peer-pressure and bullying. Bullying doesn’t have to be physically violent for it to have a lasting impact on someone’s life. > This seems like a huge missed opportunity I suspect it’s by-design - there’s a large chunk of parents[1] who adamantly insist that schools should only teach the Three Rs and that it’s exclusively the parents’ responsibility to “raise” children. It’s difficult to advance this agenda without it being misrepresented as “liberal indoctrination” and then becoming politically unpopular. [1]Invariably of the authoritarian-bent...
- mberning 6y agoYou can witness something similar in many rural areas, specifically where people are surviving off the land. Rarely does mother nature or anything else cooperate with plans or expectations. People just get used to it and develop a very workmanlike attitude.
- gooseyard 6y agoThe Briggs book referenced in the article is a really interesting read. I tracked down a copy after several articles like this one appeared shortly after her death. I assumed that the book primarily focused on child-rearing, but while that aspect of their culture is certainly an aspect of the book, her study of the concept of "ihuma" and how it applies to interactions between her host family and other adults in the same band were even more interesting to me, and her general observations about day to day life both on and off the ice were very enjoyable. It's not a tale of adventure unless you're really excited by cleaning fish, but as a voracious reader of native american culture it provides a great glimpse into a way of life which tragically would not last much longer.
- wnscooke 6y agoThis isn't "Native American", it is Inuit. I am actually not sure which Inuit, but it is unhelpful to use such a blanket designation as "native american". Using that term would be like reading a book about Irish dancing and then telling someone you read a book about "European dancing", or reading a French cook book and declaring your love for "European cuisine". One day the same awareness, knowledge, and respect afforded to the nations and people groups of Europe will be afforded to those on Turtle Island. Not using the label "native american" when the focus or topic is a specific nation is a good start.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- TristanDaCunha 6y agoHighly counterinuitive.
- ponker 6y agoInuit people have terrible life outcomes with disease, alcoholism, and suicide, and while there might be a lot of reasons for this, I would still take any of their examples with a grain of salt.
- viburnum 6y agoYeah it’s not great for your society when you’ve been conquered.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- GnarfGnarf 6y agoThat's only because they have been dominated by Western culture. Remember that they have prospered for thousands of years in a difficult environment, where everyone needs to help each other and you have to get along if the tribe is to survive.
- frostburg 6y agoLook up vikings in Greenland about outcomes in that kind of environment with differing mores.
- hosh 6y agoTangentially related: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/09/616928895/how-to-get-your-kids-to-do-chores-without-resenting-it https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/09/6169288... Also something from indigenous cultures.
- fireattack 6y agoI always find this kind of title weird. Coming from a relatively "homogenous" (for lack of a better word) ethnicity, I think I can see a point to generalize something like "this is how X people teach their children math", but "control anger"? This seems to me a very personalized thing that varies wildly from family to family.
- moate 6y agoWhy? This is the "hard skills are real, soft skills aren't" dynamic I see so often (Hello, I'm the PM in a room full of Engineers). Your first mistake is that teaching itself is very personalized and varies wildly from family to family. If we're willing to accept the premise that there are some commonalities among families from the same culture, then how they teach social skills important to that culture would likely be at the top of the list of things that would exist
- fireattack 6y ago> there are some commonalities among families from the same culture My exact point is this: I can't think of any commonalities for "(teach the kids) how to control anger", not for my culture at least. Maybe Inuit people are different.
- moate 6y agoA little necro-posty on my part, but I think this is worth mentioning: I'm an American from a white Midwestern family born in the mid-80s. I can tell you that in my upbrining things like "time out" or being sent to my room or being forced to apologize when I hit someone were part of the techniques used to help teach me how to control my anger and be pleasant to people. From my observations, these things were being taught in school as well as reinforced at home. This is part of how my culture taught me how to control my anger. However, I know that other people with different backgrounds may have had other punishments (physical abuse, being made to write out their feelings, etc). There are all sorts of social skills that cultures value and try to pass on. "How to behave when you're angry" is at the very top of that list. I promise you, there are cultural differences between how you were taught to handle anger as a child and those of people raised in different backgrounds. They just don't seem novel to you. Without knowing more, I can't point to specific examples but the larger point is that cultures pass on social skills, not just language.
- nickelpro 6y agoIt's easy to shape children so single mindedly when the cultural context of that child is completely controlled. More simply, public schools and Youtube would break this sort of conditioning in short order. It only works if you only expose a kid to that singular unified world view until they lose easy plasticity. And as a personal note, I don't think that reserving kids to a single world view like that is net good, even if you view numbed anger as benefit (which I also don't).
- fao_ 6y ago> More simply, public schools and Youtube would break this sort of conditioning in short order. Ehh? I've been exposed to decades of stimuli and yet I still have feelings and emotions that were created in my childhood, and it is difficult trying to unlearn them. > even if you view numbed anger as benefit (which I also don't). I know someone whose parents are unable to control their irritation, they are in their 50s and 60s and they will spend 5 - 10 minutes shouting at the tablet simply because it is slow, etc. I and their other friends agree that their parents are essentially emotional children in the ways that they present. It's not a happy situation for anyone in the vicinity. Part of living in this world is learning to control some of your reactions and find more beneficial and productive ways of dealing with your feelings that satisfy you, and do not hurt other people in your surroundings. Unfortunately, my friend's parents were traumatised early in life by their own parents, and never sought help. Never saw a therapist that would help them to deal with this stress in non-harmful ways. Anger isn't necessarily a bad thing, for example in a revolutionary sense it has been vastly productive, but when you're screaming about throwing a computer through a screen because you misclicked something or because it is slow to load, then it is childish and should be controlled, because it is unpleasant for everyone.
- opwieurposiu 6y agoOne Inuit parenting technique that works on my kids. If a child hits you or bites you, don't yell at them. Instead pretend to cry in an exaggerated way. I have found this to be way more effective than yelling or timeouts. My oldest is almost 4, so this might not work on older kids. But then older kids do not bite very often anyway.
- hnick 6y agoThis works on puppies too. If they get a bit nippy, overreact to the biting. There's probably a lot of similarity between what works on very young kids and puppies, at least until they learn to use that brain of theirs better.
- yencabulator 6y agoThat's the reaction a puppy would get from a sibling or its mom. The fake yelps immediately stop rough play, everyone looks around for a few seconds trying to figure out what happened. Then they bow to invite to play / signal no intent to harm, and continue playing with less biting.
- james_s_tayler 6y agoWill try this!
- jaimex2 6y agoBiting them back also works.