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If this is about Pix, and I believe it is, Government is killing competitors. If Pix is better, people will choose Pix, if WhatsApp is better, people will use i

If this is about Pix, and I believe it is, Government is killing competitors. If Pix is better, people will choose Pix, if WhatsApp is better, people will use it. Let's not force people to use a solution and create a monopoly controlled by the Government, again.

diegoholiveira 6y ago
PIX will not be a service to end-users, it'll create a standard where any service can offer instant payments and transfers. It will increase competition in the long run because if you want to open a payments fintech, you don't need to go in every bank or other fintech to do agreements about how your app will communicate with then, you just use the PIX to communicate with everyone.
- comechao 6y ago
  Sure, that's why I used the term "solution". I understand that PIX will be better than what we have today, but there's no reason to block other players and don't allow them to create their own payment solutions or products, based or not on PIX.
  - onli 6y ago
    Sure there is. The government has the responsibility to create a free market. If a proprietary standard wins, you have a monopoly without competition. If the government standard wins that enables interoperability, no company can block other competitors. Europe did the same and it worked.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      What stops the government from abusing this standard to impose arbitrary restrictions on spending?
      - rescbr 6y ago
        Nothing that cannot also be applied to Facebook. The Brazilian Central Bank has authority on money transfers, so whatever regulation they want to arbitrarily impose regarding this matter, they can do. Facebook is a registered company in Brazil, they were going to operate the payments platform through a card processor, etc, so directly or indirectly they are under the authority of the Central Bank. EDIT: by the way, regular banks and fintechs already have to be a participant in the Central Bank's payments system in order to settle funds. PIX is (also) a 24x7 implementation of the existing electronic money transfer system which only is available on working days.
    - felipeko 6y ago
      I don't think the Brazilian government has this responsibility as it is the most at fault for Brazil's lacking free market. Maybe when it becomes a champion on that, removing barriers of entry, protectionism, subsidies and it's public companies monopolies, then it can be a fair judge on this issue.
    - filoleg 6y ago
      > If a proprietary standard wins, you have a monopoly without competition Maybe they should make their government standard good enough that it wins on its own merit then. Imo, the biggest thing this block does is essentially giving the government standard a license be as subpar as they want, because it isn't like a superior non-government standard is even allowed to compete with it anyway.
      - marcosdumay 6y ago
        Ah, I see. There are a few banks that can decide to adopt or not a standard. Yeah, taking the choice from the government to those banks will certainly make everything better.
  - rydre 6y ago
    Facebook a multi hundred billion $ company vs much smaller companies in Brazil. I would think that the government here did the right thing. Let your home grown companies grow first, then let them compete openly with foreign companies. If companies are people, then companies in many 3rd world countries are children. You don't let adults hit children until they grow to be adults.
  - piva00 6y ago
    Facebook is a very unique position here, don't play it as "free market" when one player has control over more than 50% of the messaging communication going on in Brazil, Bacen is blocking the current implementation of WhatsApp Pay, doesn't mean if they integrate with PIX they won't be allowed. If they don't integrate with PIX then it's quite easy, given their position, to force users to stay only inside their platform, with PIX they are allowed to participate in the larger ecosystem, it's a better solution for all. There is no competition when network effects take hold and create a de facto monopoly, like with messaging apps.
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  > PIX will not be a service to end-users, it'll create a standard where any service can offer instant payments and transfers. Great. If that "standard" is something people want, it'll be able to succeed on its own merits, without having to block the competition. What happens when someone wants to create something new and interesting that isn't supported by the "standard"? What happens when that standard lacks features people actually want? The danger of forcing everything to use a single underlying framework is that you prevent anyone from being able to do better and improve.
vslira 6y ago
GP's point (which I believe is naive, I suspect foul play from competitors, especially big banks) is that FB was trying to corner the market through network effects before an open standard took hold and the Central Bank acted to stop that from happening.
- cheez 6y ago
  And now PIX will never be implemented.
  - kawera 6y ago
    PIX is in test and will be available to all brazilians from october. Several payment operators are implementing it's protocol.
    - cheez 6y ago
      Hope you are right.
      - fredguth 6y ago
        In Brazil, we have had same-day money transfer (normally it takes 15 min) among accounts in different banks. Same bank accounts have "instantaneous" money transfer. PIX will make it simpler for newcomers.
baq 6y ago
government standard for electronic wire transfers beats checks (duh) or private standards designed to extract money from the market. bank implements pix, another bank implements pix, customers are happy because they can transfer money securely to each other. at least that's how this works in the EU.
Mengkudulangsat 6y ago
No matter how good PIX is, as a local standard it will never be able to do what Whatsap (may) be able to do - transact with foreigners.
- rescbr 6y ago
  Oh, this would be a whole can of worms that Facebook would not want to open. International transactions are very regulated in Brazil and certainly not only the Central Bank would be heavy with their hammer, but Receita Federal (tax authority) would also be very interested in this. When PayPal started operating in Brazil, they had to convert all Brazilian accounts held in USD to BRL, and there are some restrictions on currency exchange operations that accounts registered in other countries don't have.
webmobdev 6y ago
> If Pix is better, people will choose Pix, if WhatsApp is better, people will use it. Yes, let Facebook and Apple invent their own internet too, with no compatibility between them. Let's also allow Ford / GM to create their own roads exclusively for Ford / GM vehicles. /s This is not businesses we are talking about, it's public infrastructure. And banking is a public infrastructure.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  Have a little faith? Compuserve, Prodigy, AOL, and a raft of others tried to make "their own internet" in the 80s/90s and the open system won out.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    > Have a little faith? No, thank you. I am from India, a country that lost its independence and was ruled and looted as a colony by a corporate called the East India Company. I have no faith in or trust in corporates. In a healthy democracy, Government regulations and standards are a MUST to protect us from the greed of the corporates, and to create a level playing field. Facebook is an american company and I applaud the wisdom of the Brazil policy makers to make it abide by their country's rules.

diegoholiveira 6y ago

PIX will not be a service to end-users, it'll create a standard where any service can offer instant payments and transfers. It will increase competition in the long run because if you want to open a payments fintech, you don't need to go in every bank or other fintech to do agreements about how your app will communicate with then, you just use the PIX to communicate with everyone.

comechao 6y ago
Sure, that's why I used the term "solution". I understand that PIX will be better than what we have today, but there's no reason to block other players and don't allow them to create their own payment solutions or products, based or not on PIX.
- onli 6y ago
  Sure there is. The government has the responsibility to create a free market. If a proprietary standard wins, you have a monopoly without competition. If the government standard wins that enables interoperability, no company can block other competitors. Europe did the same and it worked.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    What stops the government from abusing this standard to impose arbitrary restrictions on spending?
    - rescbr 6y ago
      Nothing that cannot also be applied to Facebook. The Brazilian Central Bank has authority on money transfers, so whatever regulation they want to arbitrarily impose regarding this matter, they can do. Facebook is a registered company in Brazil, they were going to operate the payments platform through a card processor, etc, so directly or indirectly they are under the authority of the Central Bank. EDIT: by the way, regular banks and fintechs already have to be a participant in the Central Bank's payments system in order to settle funds. PIX is (also) a 24x7 implementation of the existing electronic money transfer system which only is available on working days.
  - felipeko 6y ago
    I don't think the Brazilian government has this responsibility as it is the most at fault for Brazil's lacking free market. Maybe when it becomes a champion on that, removing barriers of entry, protectionism, subsidies and it's public companies monopolies, then it can be a fair judge on this issue.
  - filoleg 6y ago
    > If a proprietary standard wins, you have a monopoly without competition Maybe they should make their government standard good enough that it wins on its own merit then. Imo, the biggest thing this block does is essentially giving the government standard a license be as subpar as they want, because it isn't like a superior non-government standard is even allowed to compete with it anyway.
    - marcosdumay 6y ago
      Ah, I see. There are a few banks that can decide to adopt or not a standard. Yeah, taking the choice from the government to those banks will certainly make everything better.
- rydre 6y ago
  Facebook a multi hundred billion $ company vs much smaller companies in Brazil. I would think that the government here did the right thing. Let your home grown companies grow first, then let them compete openly with foreign companies. If companies are people, then companies in many 3rd world countries are children. You don't let adults hit children until they grow to be adults.
- piva00 6y ago
  Facebook is a very unique position here, don't play it as "free market" when one player has control over more than 50% of the messaging communication going on in Brazil, Bacen is blocking the current implementation of WhatsApp Pay, doesn't mean if they integrate with PIX they won't be allowed. If they don't integrate with PIX then it's quite easy, given their position, to force users to stay only inside their platform, with PIX they are allowed to participate in the larger ecosystem, it's a better solution for all. There is no competition when network effects take hold and create a de facto monopoly, like with messaging apps.
JoshTriplett 6y ago
> PIX will not be a service to end-users, it'll create a standard where any service can offer instant payments and transfers. Great. If that "standard" is something people want, it'll be able to succeed on its own merits, without having to block the competition. What happens when someone wants to create something new and interesting that isn't supported by the "standard"? What happens when that standard lacks features people actually want? The danger of forcing everything to use a single underlying framework is that you prevent anyone from being able to do better and improve.

vslira 6y ago

GP's point (which I believe is naive, I suspect foul play from competitors, especially big banks) is that FB was trying to corner the market through network effects before an open standard took hold and the Central Bank acted to stop that from happening.

cheez 6y ago
And now PIX will never be implemented.
- kawera 6y ago
  PIX is in test and will be available to all brazilians from october. Several payment operators are implementing it's protocol.
  - cheez 6y ago
    Hope you are right.
    - fredguth 6y ago
      In Brazil, we have had same-day money transfer (normally it takes 15 min) among accounts in different banks. Same bank accounts have "instantaneous" money transfer. PIX will make it simpler for newcomers.

baq 6y ago

government standard for electronic wire transfers beats checks (duh) or private standards designed to extract money from the market. bank implements pix, another bank implements pix, customers are happy because they can transfer money securely to each other. at least that's how this works in the EU.

Mengkudulangsat 6y ago

No matter how good PIX is, as a local standard it will never be able to do what Whatsap (may) be able to do - transact with foreigners.

rescbr 6y ago
Oh, this would be a whole can of worms that Facebook would not want to open. International transactions are very regulated in Brazil and certainly not only the Central Bank would be heavy with their hammer, but Receita Federal (tax authority) would also be very interested in this. When PayPal started operating in Brazil, they had to convert all Brazilian accounts held in USD to BRL, and there are some restrictions on currency exchange operations that accounts registered in other countries don't have.

webmobdev 6y ago

> If Pix is better, people will choose Pix, if WhatsApp is better, people will use it. Yes, let Facebook and Apple invent their own internet too, with no compatibility between them. Let's also allow Ford / GM to create their own roads exclusively for Ford / GM vehicles. /s This is not businesses we are talking about, it's public infrastructure. And banking is a public infrastructure.

stickfigure 6y ago
Have a little faith? Compuserve, Prodigy, AOL, and a raft of others tried to make "their own internet" in the 80s/90s and the open system won out.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  > Have a little faith? No, thank you. I am from India, a country that lost its independence and was ruled and looted as a colony by a corporate called the East India Company. I have no faith in or trust in corporates. In a healthy democracy, Government regulations and standards are a MUST to protect us from the greed of the corporates, and to create a level playing field. Facebook is an american company and I applaud the wisdom of the Brazil policy makers to make it abide by their country's rules.