6 ms·

>I tried a new place recently, only to find out I had been duped by Grub-hub So you found a new restaurant, the restaurant found a new customer, and grub-hub i

>I tried a new place recently, only to find out I had been duped by Grub-hub So you found a new restaurant, the restaurant found a new customer, and grub-hub is cut out of the (future) picture. Didn't grubhub earn that commission in this case? I have no love (or hate) for grub-hub... but it seems like a business hired a salesperson on commission, knowing full well the parameters of the deal, and then gets upset when they actually bring in sales. In most other industries the restaurant would be considered the 'bad guy' for trying to take the business direct and cheating the rep out of a commission.

nickff 6y ago
Thanks for offering a refreshing take on the situation; I had not heard anything like this view, and find it very interesting.
toomuchtodo 6y ago
A commission isn’t earned when you’re fraudulently impersonating a business.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > when you’re fraudulently impersonating a business The article suggests diners are calling numbers from the GrubHub app. If that’s the case, the commission is earned per the agreement. Practically, the app provided discoverability. When it appears on Google or Yelp results, assuming Google or Yelp aren’t being compensated and disclosing this relationship, that is a problem.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    This is a fair distinction to point out. Edit: Removed an interpretation of the situation that was inaccurate
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      They can't both lack permission and charge a single business. If they're charging, they have permission (though possibly the contract was misleading). If they don't have permission, they have no ability to charge.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - ohyeshedid 6y ago
        They may not be able to charge the restaurant directly, but they can and do increase the menu price when they don't have an agreement.
  - dagnabbit 6y ago
    The numbers are on fake websites which grubhub sets up, which impersonate the business without clearly conveying that it's actually grub hub. Those websites then end up on Google and Yelp. It's a vile scam, supported only by immoral and brainless turds such as Riccardo Altavilla.
detaro 6y ago
Depends if Grubhub did anything to "find" them. I.e. if some googles for a restaurant someone recommended to them, Grubhub buys the Google advertising spot for the name of the restaurant, places an ad directly above the Google Maps result and the restaurants website in the results, captures the click and demands a commission for it, what value have they added? https://www.saddlebackbbq.com/how-google-doordash-grubhub-conspire-screw-local-restaurants https://www.saddlebackbbq.com/how-google-doordash-grubhub-co... Or if Doordash puts their phone numbers on the restaurants Google listings, replacing the direct one: https://support.google.com/business/thread/5820393?hl=en https://support.google.com/business/thread/5820393?hl=en Would you label a sales guy you hired to find you new customers a bad guy if he camped in front of your door, talked to people coming to visit you and claimed commission?
gibolt 6y ago
In a lot of cases Grubhub is creating websites that look official for restaurants. Few businesses are aware of this, as it siphons customers from many legit websites thanks to better SEO. There have been quite a few instances of this even with restaurants that they've never worked with.
maest 6y ago
There is no proof GH added value here. Allow me to share a related story: In some places in Eastern Europe, for a while, you could see these people stand in front of empty, free parking spots in the street. As soon as they would see a car approaching they would wave their hands and signal you to park there. To be clear, these people were not afiliated with city hall or other public institutions in any way. If you drove away, no biggie. If you parked, they would do a big show of moving around the car and telling you when you were too close to the curb, when you should start turning the wheel etc. Once you were done, they would walk up to you and heavily imply they should be paid for the service they provided ("discovering" the parking space for you and helping you park). You could safely ignore them and they might cuss at you but that was about it. My girlfriend used to lovingly call them Parking Consultants. These GH stories have a very similar energy, with middlemen forcefully putting themselves in front of you when you follow a discovery path _that would naturally lead you to the restaurant you were looking for_ (e.g. by showing up higher than the restaurant you're tying to order from in the Google search).
- brianwawok 6y ago
  Well the big problem with the consultants is sometimes they might flatten your tire or key your car if you don’t tip. So it’s as much over-eager help as it is shake-down. Not a huge fan.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Profound analogy. Gig platforms appear to be overly helpful to customers and shake down restaurants and drivers.
- rickpmg 6y ago
  Food for thought (no pun intended) The value that GH added here was that they were higher up than any of the restaurant's competitors, too. So, absent of GH, that pizza sale, instead of going to GH, might have gone to a competitive pizza place. So the restaurant has to evaluate-- it is better that I get the order through GH, or that I don't possibly get the order at all, and it goes to a competitor?
AlexandrB 6y ago
Grub-hub sometimes does this without the restaurant's knowledge or permission[1]. I believe in most other industries that's considered fraud or trademark violation? [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/19154220/grubhub-seamless-fake-restaurant-domain-names-commission-fees https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/19154220/grubhub-seamless...
- addled 6y ago
  I wonder if restaurants could add creative licensing terms to the metadata of the images on the legit sites? "...By reusing our image for marketing purposes without prior written consent, you agree to a $3 royalty fee per page view." IANAL, so no idea if that could be held up in court, but would be fun to see someone try.
- realusername 6y ago
  That's also my understanding of it, that does sounds like a business model based on trademark violation / brand impersonation. The only reason they get away with it is they target small restaurants which are unable to defend themselves. They would try to create a fake <yourlocalcityname>mcdonald.com, it would be taken down immediately.
jancsika 6y ago
That's all contingent both on OP discovering the restaurant through grubhub's tactics, and on it being unlikely that OP would have found said restaurant without the existence of grubhub's tactics. For example, suppose a fairy told OP about the restaurant and OP then Googled it to get the number. If the grubhub MITM phone number bumped the real number/website further down then grubhub is a nuisance and a thief. But OP also mentioned they thought they had ordered from the restaurant's web site. If that confusion is due to dark patterns employed by grubhub then grubhub is full of evil wizards who must be overcome in an epic battle. Only if OP discovered by searching and grubhub bubbling to the top of a search where the restaurant otherwise wouldn't have appeared is grubhub the knight here. So we need to know-- OP, how did you discover this new restaurant in the first place?
kelnos 6y ago
If GrubHub replaced the restaurant's actual phone number with GH's on Google or Yelp or whatever, what service have they provided? (Hint: the answer is: none.)
renewiltord 6y ago
Haha, I like the view, but generally if I want a salesperson I want to voluntary engage in that transaction. Fortunately, in the business I'm in I can just forbid reselling in the licence except for the folks I'm getting into business with. The unfortunate reality for restaurants is that they can't. Confusing a deputy that you are indeed someone in order to intermediate a relationship between them and that person has a skeevy air to it. It's the deception, I think.
projektfu 6y ago
Google charges me for the privilege of them placing an ad at the top of the search result when people search for the exact name of my business. Or if they type my domain name into a search box. I pay to win an auction to have my business be the first ad when people search my exact name. Yelp adds value by putting my competitors above me when people search my exact name. They then offer me the deal Google gets. GrubHub is spending VC money to win the google auction and then they offer the restaurant the great deal of handing over the profit margin to them. They’ll continue elbowing out paying restaurants after that to keep the money flowing, so the restaurant is paying for the privilege of paying GrubHub. What a great time for small business.

nickff 6y ago

Thanks for offering a refreshing take on the situation; I had not heard anything like this view, and find it very interesting.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

A commission isn’t earned when you’re fraudulently impersonating a business.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> when you’re fraudulently impersonating a business The article suggests diners are calling numbers from the GrubHub app. If that’s the case, the commission is earned per the agreement. Practically, the app provided discoverability. When it appears on Google or Yelp results, assuming Google or Yelp aren’t being compensated and disclosing this relationship, that is a problem.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  This is a fair distinction to point out. Edit: Removed an interpretation of the situation that was inaccurate
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    They can't both lack permission and charge a single business. If they're charging, they have permission (though possibly the contract was misleading). If they don't have permission, they have no ability to charge.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - ohyeshedid 6y ago
      They may not be able to charge the restaurant directly, but they can and do increase the menu price when they don't have an agreement.
- dagnabbit 6y ago
  The numbers are on fake websites which grubhub sets up, which impersonate the business without clearly conveying that it's actually grub hub. Those websites then end up on Google and Yelp. It's a vile scam, supported only by immoral and brainless turds such as Riccardo Altavilla.

detaro 6y ago

Depends if Grubhub did anything to "find" them. I.e. if some googles for a restaurant someone recommended to them, Grubhub buys the Google advertising spot for the name of the restaurant, places an ad directly above the Google Maps result and the restaurants website in the results, captures the click and demands a commission for it, what value have they added? https://www.saddlebackbbq.com/how-google-doordash-grubhub-conspire-screw-local-restaurants https://www.saddlebackbbq.com/how-google-doordash-grubhub-co... Or if Doordash puts their phone numbers on the restaurants Google listings, replacing the direct one: https://support.google.com/business/thread/5820393?hl=en https://support.google.com/business/thread/5820393?hl=en Would you label a sales guy you hired to find you new customers a bad guy if he camped in front of your door, talked to people coming to visit you and claimed commission?

gibolt 6y ago

In a lot of cases Grubhub is creating websites that look official for restaurants. Few businesses are aware of this, as it siphons customers from many legit websites thanks to better SEO. There have been quite a few instances of this even with restaurants that they've never worked with.

maest 6y ago

There is no proof GH added value here. Allow me to share a related story: In some places in Eastern Europe, for a while, you could see these people stand in front of empty, free parking spots in the street. As soon as they would see a car approaching they would wave their hands and signal you to park there. To be clear, these people were not afiliated with city hall or other public institutions in any way. If you drove away, no biggie. If you parked, they would do a big show of moving around the car and telling you when you were too close to the curb, when you should start turning the wheel etc. Once you were done, they would walk up to you and heavily imply they should be paid for the service they provided ("discovering" the parking space for you and helping you park). You could safely ignore them and they might cuss at you but that was about it. My girlfriend used to lovingly call them Parking Consultants. These GH stories have a very similar energy, with middlemen forcefully putting themselves in front of you when you follow a discovery path _that would naturally lead you to the restaurant you were looking for_ (e.g. by showing up higher than the restaurant you're tying to order from in the Google search).

brianwawok 6y ago
Well the big problem with the consultants is sometimes they might flatten your tire or key your car if you don’t tip. So it’s as much over-eager help as it is shake-down. Not a huge fan.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Profound analogy. Gig platforms appear to be overly helpful to customers and shake down restaurants and drivers.
rickpmg 6y ago
Food for thought (no pun intended) The value that GH added here was that they were higher up than any of the restaurant's competitors, too. So, absent of GH, that pizza sale, instead of going to GH, might have gone to a competitive pizza place. So the restaurant has to evaluate-- it is better that I get the order through GH, or that I don't possibly get the order at all, and it goes to a competitor?

AlexandrB 6y ago

Grub-hub sometimes does this without the restaurant's knowledge or permission[1]. I believe in most other industries that's considered fraud or trademark violation? [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/19154220/grubhub-seamless-fake-restaurant-domain-names-commission-fees https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/19154220/grubhub-seamless...

addled 6y ago
I wonder if restaurants could add creative licensing terms to the metadata of the images on the legit sites? "...By reusing our image for marketing purposes without prior written consent, you agree to a $3 royalty fee per page view." IANAL, so no idea if that could be held up in court, but would be fun to see someone try.
realusername 6y ago
That's also my understanding of it, that does sounds like a business model based on trademark violation / brand impersonation. The only reason they get away with it is they target small restaurants which are unable to defend themselves. They would try to create a fake <yourlocalcityname>mcdonald.com, it would be taken down immediately.

jancsika 6y ago

That's all contingent both on OP discovering the restaurant through grubhub's tactics, and on it being unlikely that OP would have found said restaurant without the existence of grubhub's tactics. For example, suppose a fairy told OP about the restaurant and OP then Googled it to get the number. If the grubhub MITM phone number bumped the real number/website further down then grubhub is a nuisance and a thief. But OP also mentioned they thought they had ordered from the restaurant's web site. If that confusion is due to dark patterns employed by grubhub then grubhub is full of evil wizards who must be overcome in an epic battle. Only if OP discovered by searching and grubhub bubbling to the top of a search where the restaurant otherwise wouldn't have appeared is grubhub the knight here. So we need to know-- OP, how did you discover this new restaurant in the first place?

kelnos 6y ago

If GrubHub replaced the restaurant's actual phone number with GH's on Google or Yelp or whatever, what service have they provided? (Hint: the answer is: none.)

renewiltord 6y ago

Haha, I like the view, but generally if I want a salesperson I want to voluntary engage in that transaction. Fortunately, in the business I'm in I can just forbid reselling in the licence except for the folks I'm getting into business with. The unfortunate reality for restaurants is that they can't. Confusing a deputy that you are indeed someone in order to intermediate a relationship between them and that person has a skeevy air to it. It's the deception, I think.

projektfu 6y ago

Google charges me for the privilege of them placing an ad at the top of the search result when people search for the exact name of my business. Or if they type my domain name into a search box. I pay to win an auction to have my business be the first ad when people search my exact name. Yelp adds value by putting my competitors above me when people search my exact name. They then offer me the deal Google gets. GrubHub is spending VC money to win the google auction and then they offer the restaurant the great deal of handing over the profit margin to them. They’ll continue elbowing out paying restaurants after that to keep the money flowing, so the restaurant is paying for the privilege of paying GrubHub. What a great time for small business.