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Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday.

Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday. We refused to leave and fortunately they left and let us have a peaceful march. There doesn’t seem to be an interest in separating out the extreme minority that protest violently. There had been zero violence or destruction that day. A very well-behaved crowd exercising peaceful civil disobedience met by violence from police. In 2020.

misun78 6y ago
Good for you in being somewhere with zero violence in looting, while here in nyc, entire neighborhoods (soho, herald square etc) has been ransacked and cops run over to death. National guard cannot come soon enough to put away these perpetrators in jail.
baybal2 6y ago
Not insightful at all. > after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. The thing is that they can. That's a very deliberate tactic, down to planting of provocators. If you been watching what's going on around the world, the allegations of that, including provocator planting, followed pretty much every major demonstration event. It's naive, if not silly, to use that "hey, he started it first!" argument at the time when the fact of confrontation happening is already obvious. The talk now should not be who started the violence, but how to end it, a peace treaty to say.
- kelvin0 6y ago
  Exactly. There exists an asymmetry in the dynamics of protesters vs police during a protest. Very simple: Anyone can be 'planted' in a group of protesters to start stirring up trouble (agent-provocateur). Then the police have 'justification' to use whatever amount of force they think is required. On the other hand, it's practically impossible for a regular citizen to be embedded into a riot police response unit. Add to that the police have practically no real oversight and investigate themselves (assuming internal affairs counts as police). One side can't fail (except morally), while the other side always will end up with the shorter end of the stick.
  - mc32 6y ago
    People also can counter plant and plant someone to feign being a first level plant to be able to point out that the violence was instigated by a plant. Both sides can and do do that.
    - kelvin0 6y ago
      This changes nothing to the end result. One side (Police) still has a major advantage.
- david38 6y ago
  This is a gross oversimplification. I have family members in law enforcement. In most cases it’s very difficult to tell the people apart. People can barely identify a single thief, unmasked, caught on camera, yet somehow they have these god-like powers to identify troublemakers who weave through the crowd of protesters, all masked?
briandear 6y ago
Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet? Weren’t we told that the reopen protesters were putting people at risk by protesting from their cars? I don’t disagree with the reason for protest, but if a church can’t be open, even outdoors, and an extended family picnic is illegal in a public park, then I am not sure the rationale for allowing protests now. The first amendment isn’t conditional on the reasons for gathering or speaking. The mayor of Oakland even supported the protests held there while just recently maintaining that “non-essential” businesses couldn’t open. I am just trying to reconcile why a small restaurant in Oakland can’t be open, but thousands of people marching in a massive group is somehow allowed. And it seems, politically speaking that a similar demographic that was just days ago telling everyone to stay home to protect us from the plague suddenly changed their public health tune as soon as something they care about was the issue. Are the lockdowns optional now? Are they situational depending on the politics of the event? Because it sure seems like it. Georgia got hammered for reopening too early, but nobody had much to say about Atlanta having massive protests over the past days. Either the lockdowns are unnecessary or they are necessary and people are putting public health at serious risk with these “large gatherings.” I wish we could reboot 2020. It’s a g-damned mess.
- grupthink 6y ago
  The US is less of a United Monolith and more of a Spaghetticoded States of America. Look out world, we're agile!
- idealboy 6y ago
  Yes, I and about 90% of the crowd wore masks. Yes, we did our best to keep 6 feet but not always, hence the masks. People were walking around with hand sanitizer to share. A global pandemic is awful, but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility. Was it uncomfortable and difficult? Yes. Am I glad I went? Hell yes. Black lives matter.
  - craftinator 6y ago
    Plus, it's awfully hard to avoid spraying spit and snot on everyone around you when you're getting tear-gassed. I know, I've been cs-gassed many, many times. The police are not helping the situation with this tactic.
mr_spothawk 6y ago
If you can do so without doxxing yourself, I'd appreciate to have a city to associate with these types of stories. Thanks.
- ncallaway 6y ago
  This isn't exactly the same because things have been a little more chaotic in places in Seattle, but a lot of the force I've seen from the Seattle PD has been disproportionate. Mostly flashbangs, fireworks, tear gas and mace. A couple of videos associated with incidents in Seattle from tonight are here: - https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161 https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161 - https://twitter.com/jxyzn/status/1267684722341064704 https://twitter.com/jxyzn/status/1267684722341064704 (same incident, higher angle) - https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1267673936659021830 https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1267673936659021830 The general characterization I would give is that there have been calm periods, and then moments of intense chaos. In the chaos, protestors have often been throwing projectiles (mostly plastic bottles, occasionally firecrackers; some have claimed bricks have been thrown in Seattle, but I haven't seen it myself). However, in general I would say that the SPD has repeatedly been the party to _instigate_ the chaos, by launching a round of flashbangs, mace, and pepper spray.

misun78 6y ago

Good for you in being somewhere with zero violence in looting, while here in nyc, entire neighborhoods (soho, herald square etc) has been ransacked and cops run over to death. National guard cannot come soon enough to put away these perpetrators in jail.

baybal2 6y ago

Not insightful at all. > after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. The thing is that they can. That's a very deliberate tactic, down to planting of provocators. If you been watching what's going on around the world, the allegations of that, including provocator planting, followed pretty much every major demonstration event. It's naive, if not silly, to use that "hey, he started it first!" argument at the time when the fact of confrontation happening is already obvious. The talk now should not be who started the violence, but how to end it, a peace treaty to say.

kelvin0 6y ago
Exactly. There exists an asymmetry in the dynamics of protesters vs police during a protest. Very simple: Anyone can be 'planted' in a group of protesters to start stirring up trouble (agent-provocateur). Then the police have 'justification' to use whatever amount of force they think is required. On the other hand, it's practically impossible for a regular citizen to be embedded into a riot police response unit. Add to that the police have practically no real oversight and investigate themselves (assuming internal affairs counts as police). One side can't fail (except morally), while the other side always will end up with the shorter end of the stick.
- mc32 6y ago
  People also can counter plant and plant someone to feign being a first level plant to be able to point out that the violence was instigated by a plant. Both sides can and do do that.
  - kelvin0 6y ago
    This changes nothing to the end result. One side (Police) still has a major advantage.
david38 6y ago
This is a gross oversimplification. I have family members in law enforcement. In most cases it’s very difficult to tell the people apart. People can barely identify a single thief, unmasked, caught on camera, yet somehow they have these god-like powers to identify troublemakers who weave through the crowd of protesters, all masked?

briandear 6y ago

Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet? Weren’t we told that the reopen protesters were putting people at risk by protesting from their cars? I don’t disagree with the reason for protest, but if a church can’t be open, even outdoors, and an extended family picnic is illegal in a public park, then I am not sure the rationale for allowing protests now. The first amendment isn’t conditional on the reasons for gathering or speaking. The mayor of Oakland even supported the protests held there while just recently maintaining that “non-essential” businesses couldn’t open. I am just trying to reconcile why a small restaurant in Oakland can’t be open, but thousands of people marching in a massive group is somehow allowed. And it seems, politically speaking that a similar demographic that was just days ago telling everyone to stay home to protect us from the plague suddenly changed their public health tune as soon as something they care about was the issue. Are the lockdowns optional now? Are they situational depending on the politics of the event? Because it sure seems like it. Georgia got hammered for reopening too early, but nobody had much to say about Atlanta having massive protests over the past days. Either the lockdowns are unnecessary or they are necessary and people are putting public health at serious risk with these “large gatherings.” I wish we could reboot 2020. It’s a g-damned mess.

grupthink 6y ago
The US is less of a United Monolith and more of a Spaghetticoded States of America. Look out world, we're agile!
idealboy 6y ago
Yes, I and about 90% of the crowd wore masks. Yes, we did our best to keep 6 feet but not always, hence the masks. People were walking around with hand sanitizer to share. A global pandemic is awful, but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility. Was it uncomfortable and difficult? Yes. Am I glad I went? Hell yes. Black lives matter.
- craftinator 6y ago
  Plus, it's awfully hard to avoid spraying spit and snot on everyone around you when you're getting tear-gassed. I know, I've been cs-gassed many, many times. The police are not helping the situation with this tactic.

mr_spothawk 6y ago

If you can do so without doxxing yourself, I'd appreciate to have a city to associate with these types of stories. Thanks.

ncallaway 6y ago
This isn't exactly the same because things have been a little more chaotic in places in Seattle, but a lot of the force I've seen from the Seattle PD has been disproportionate. Mostly flashbangs, fireworks, tear gas and mace. A couple of videos associated with incidents in Seattle from tonight are here: - https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161 https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161 - https://twitter.com/jxyzn/status/1267684722341064704 https://twitter.com/jxyzn/status/1267684722341064704 (same incident, higher angle) - https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1267673936659021830 https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1267673936659021830 The general characterization I would give is that there have been calm periods, and then moments of intense chaos. In the chaos, protestors have often been throwing projectiles (mostly plastic bottles, occasionally firecrackers; some have claimed bricks have been thrown in Seattle, but I haven't seen it myself). However, in general I would say that the SPD has repeatedly been the party to _instigate_ the chaos, by launching a round of flashbangs, mace, and pepper spray.