7 ms·

Could someone ELI5, why it is so difficult to make it right? And I do not mean exclusively to Linux, because Windows has been horrible for years now too. If th

by 3jckd 6y ago

Could someone ELI5, why it is so difficult to make it right? And I do not mean exclusively to Linux, because Windows has been horrible for years now too. If the issue is hardware, then we'd blame OEMs. If it's software, then we'd blame, say, Microsoft. If it was a combination of these two, then we could say that Apple is the only one that controls both... if it wasn't for the Surface series which still has atrocious touchpad experience.

bzb3 6y ago
It is mostly software, but it's not Microsoft's fault, because they do not make the hardware and are not expected to write the drivers for it.
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  Surface trackpads feel very close to Apple ones these days so it's down to OEMs. Although at this point I'd argue Microsoft should be forcing a minimum level of experience on all Windows devices and providing the software tools and hardware guidance needed to get there.
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    The only way that works is for Microsoft to refuse to license Windows to manufacturers that don't meet those standards, and you're not going to catch them refusing to make a sale.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  Windows is providing more of the touchpad software now, but you still have to depend on manufacturers to be compatible with it: https://www.howtogeek.com/286905/what-is-a-precision-touchpad-on-windows-pcs/ https://www.howtogeek.com/286905/what-is-a-precision-touchpa...
- rconti 6y ago
  I guess that's our answer. They'd rather say "not our fault" than even try to solve it?
chrisseaton 6y ago
If I was being uncharitable I'd say that the problem is that companies beside Apple just don't care about a good user experience. Maybe they could produce the same product if they thought it mattered. With almost all non-Apple laptops being flimsy, cheap-feeling plastic junk, stuffed full of ports and bezels, I feel like they're miles away from being at the stage where it makes sense to optimise the trackpad.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Companies optimize towards whatever drives their customers buying decisions. For some makers that’s going to be performance or cost. For businesses laptops reliability and security are going to be big factors. For Apple the overall experience is a large part of why people buy; Apple users want a great hardware experience integrated into the OS, and they’re willing to sacrifice performance and price to get it.
  - symlinkk 6y ago
    You’re giving Dell / HP / etc too much credit. They’ve tried over and over again to build a machine with Macbook level quality. They have laptops that cost just as much, if not more, than a Macbook. And every one of them has some glaring issue. It’s not some purposeful design decision. They just don’t have the same caliber of engineers or management that Apple has.
    - damnyou 6y ago
      Every MacBook Pro these days has the glaring issues of * not having a top row of physical keys * not being able to run Linux natively * not integrating with any phones except the ones it makes Apple just doesn't have the caliber of engineering or management to compete with PC manufacturers.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        These are not glaring issues to most mac buyers, with the possible exception of the touchbar. Most Mac buyers both want OSX, and use iPhones. If you want Linux, don't buy a Macbook Pro, you'll save a ton of money on features you don't need, and get better hardware support.
dkuntz2 6y ago
The exact opposite of an ELI5, but a very well written and in-depth overview on why touchpads suck outside of macOS: https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure the tl;dr is that when touchpads were added to windows, they used the legacy APIs which made assumptions about them being mouses with notched scroll wheels. And while microsoft has since released APIs which support high precision scrolling, applications have been slow to adopt them (sometimes because of wanting to be compatible with windows 7 and older).
AgloeDreams 6y ago
Honestly, I think a lot of people forget the real reason: In one corner, Apple got there by mainlining trackpad and trackpad software development...with iPhone touchscreen R&D. You have basically the largest R&D product in the world dictating the software that controls their trackpads. We are talking advanced finger speed and direction prediction (not just detection), AI to ignore unintended touches, and hardware and software that have been built specifically for them. It's no secret that all of Apple's laptops effectively have the same trackpad in various sizes and that the tech in the touchpad is nearly identical to to that in an iPhone minus a display. (Including the taptic engine and `3D Touch` aka, `Force Touch`.) In the other corner, you have people with laptops by random companies with random hardware and drivers written by FOSS contributors/ Laptop ODMs/ Legacy Microsoft Drivers. FOSS is fantastic, but it can't generally compete with a Billion dollar a year R&D budget stretched over 10 years feeding back improvements.
- aikinai 6y ago
  Mac trackpads have lightyears ahead of other vendors since before the iPhone, so this can’t be the primary reason.
  - AgloeDreams 6y ago
    They always had better scrolling due to custom drivers but it wasn't anything like today until 2008, when the macbook air came out with the (now iconic), Glass capacitive Trackpad. The presentation repeatedly referenced the iphone and how they were learning from the iPhone and using it's tech. If you used a pre-2008 trackpad and then the modern Apple trackpad you would see massive differences.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      I don't remember the difference between the non-unibody and unibody trackpads being that dramatic. They were better, sure, but it was a difference of degree, whereas PC trackpads, especially of the time, were borderline unusable after you'd used a pre-unibody Mac one.
cycloptic 6y ago
As an open source developer, it is very hard to support hardware that I don't actually own and can't test on. It is also very hard to support obscure hardware that only has obfuscated closed-source drivers, or has no Linux drivers at all. This requires lots of trial-and-error and workarounds (in addition to the normal level of hardware-specific tweaks that have to go into something like libinput) and takes up a disproportionate amount of testing time. Some input devices fall in this category, such as those built into newer apple laptops.
DylanDmitri 6y ago
If old Surfaces had problems, the new ones don't. I've used a new MacBook and Surface daily for the last couple months, and the tracking performance and latency are indistinguishable. Haptic clicking is better on the Mac though.
solarkraft 6y ago
Still atrocious touchpad experience? If you discount the constant jumping around, which I experienced on every precision driver touchpad I have used (about 4, including a Macbook. Are MS complete idiots or is this another one of the problems normal people don't notice?!?!?!?!) my experience with them has actually been very good. The response is way more direct than on Linux and quite precise as well. Application support for scrolling is not great, but not horrible either (browsers, more popular MS apps and JetBrains IDEs work).
- ubercow13 6y ago
  Nope, I also have that problem. The same touchpad on Linux works flawlessly though.
chongli 6y ago
I think it’s due to the organizational structure of Apple which gives them a huge advantage over everyone else. In the Linux world, people point the finger at the driver developers who in turn point the finger at the hardware makers and firmware developers. Apple, on the other hand, has all of these folks working together, all the way up the stack to the UI toolkit and application layers. I fear that Linux touchpad support is a victim of Conway’s law [1] which means this problem can’t be solved by one specific team. It may mean rewriting the whole stack (and rewriting applications as a result). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law
- baq 6y ago
  except the culture of secrecy where you can't see your own bug reports after you file them [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21218413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21218413
  - Redoubts 6y ago
    This is not generally true.
bregma 6y ago
Microsoft tried to compete with Apple by dictating to hardware vendors how they should write drivers for their touch input devices (the Microsoft HID guidelines). Of course, none of the hardware vendors could actually write drivers that fully conform to this standard, and the standard itself was not wholly adequate to compete with Apple. It causes problems. Linux slavishly adheres to the published Microsoft HID guidelines. Since neither Microsoft nor any of the hardware vendors do, it causes problems. The Microsoft HID guidelines dictate how packets of information are reported to userspace. That is information like touch id, touch size, velocity, and direction. The userspace then has to integrate the various data into touch and gesture recognition. A thousand different software developers do that a thousand different ways, mostly badly. The end result in the Windows and Linux world is a thousand different developers produce touch and gesture recognition software a thousand different ways of hundreds of different devices that work in completely different ways. A sort of orchestrated chaos like an ant colony. Apple dictated to its hardware vendors exactly how to write drivers that work with its software, and it has centralized software embedded in the OS to handle touch. A dozen expert developers do touch and gesture recognition for all apps using strictly controlled drivers from a select few vendors, all centrally controlled like a massive flock of starlings swooping and gliding and conducted by the ghost of Steve Jobs standing on the ground.

by 3jckd 6y ago

bzb3 6y ago

It is mostly software, but it's not Microsoft's fault, because they do not make the hardware and are not expected to write the drivers for it.

whywhywhywhy 6y ago
Surface trackpads feel very close to Apple ones these days so it's down to OEMs. Although at this point I'd argue Microsoft should be forcing a minimum level of experience on all Windows devices and providing the software tools and hardware guidance needed to get there.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  The only way that works is for Microsoft to refuse to license Windows to manufacturers that don't meet those standards, and you're not going to catch them refusing to make a sale.
wlesieutre 6y ago
Windows is providing more of the touchpad software now, but you still have to depend on manufacturers to be compatible with it: https://www.howtogeek.com/286905/what-is-a-precision-touchpad-on-windows-pcs/ https://www.howtogeek.com/286905/what-is-a-precision-touchpa...
rconti 6y ago
I guess that's our answer. They'd rather say "not our fault" than even try to solve it?

chrisseaton 6y ago

If I was being uncharitable I'd say that the problem is that companies beside Apple just don't care about a good user experience. Maybe they could produce the same product if they thought it mattered. With almost all non-Apple laptops being flimsy, cheap-feeling plastic junk, stuffed full of ports and bezels, I feel like they're miles away from being at the stage where it makes sense to optimise the trackpad.

ashtonkem 6y ago
Companies optimize towards whatever drives their customers buying decisions. For some makers that’s going to be performance or cost. For businesses laptops reliability and security are going to be big factors. For Apple the overall experience is a large part of why people buy; Apple users want a great hardware experience integrated into the OS, and they’re willing to sacrifice performance and price to get it.
- symlinkk 6y ago
  You’re giving Dell / HP / etc too much credit. They’ve tried over and over again to build a machine with Macbook level quality. They have laptops that cost just as much, if not more, than a Macbook. And every one of them has some glaring issue. It’s not some purposeful design decision. They just don’t have the same caliber of engineers or management that Apple has.
  - damnyou 6y ago
    Every MacBook Pro these days has the glaring issues of * not having a top row of physical keys * not being able to run Linux natively * not integrating with any phones except the ones it makes Apple just doesn't have the caliber of engineering or management to compete with PC manufacturers.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      These are not glaring issues to most mac buyers, with the possible exception of the touchbar. Most Mac buyers both want OSX, and use iPhones. If you want Linux, don't buy a Macbook Pro, you'll save a ton of money on features you don't need, and get better hardware support.

dkuntz2 6y ago

The exact opposite of an ELI5, but a very well written and in-depth overview on why touchpads suck outside of macOS: https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure the tl;dr is that when touchpads were added to windows, they used the legacy APIs which made assumptions about them being mouses with notched scroll wheels. And while microsoft has since released APIs which support high precision scrolling, applications have been slow to adopt them (sometimes because of wanting to be compatible with windows 7 and older).

AgloeDreams 6y ago

Honestly, I think a lot of people forget the real reason: In one corner, Apple got there by mainlining trackpad and trackpad software development...with iPhone touchscreen R&D. You have basically the largest R&D product in the world dictating the software that controls their trackpads. We are talking advanced finger speed and direction prediction (not just detection), AI to ignore unintended touches, and hardware and software that have been built specifically for them. It's no secret that all of Apple's laptops effectively have the same trackpad in various sizes and that the tech in the touchpad is nearly identical to to that in an iPhone minus a display. (Including the taptic engine and `3D Touch` aka, `Force Touch`.) In the other corner, you have people with laptops by random companies with random hardware and drivers written by FOSS contributors/ Laptop ODMs/ Legacy Microsoft Drivers. FOSS is fantastic, but it can't generally compete with a Billion dollar a year R&D budget stretched over 10 years feeding back improvements.

aikinai 6y ago
Mac trackpads have lightyears ahead of other vendors since before the iPhone, so this can’t be the primary reason.
- AgloeDreams 6y ago
  They always had better scrolling due to custom drivers but it wasn't anything like today until 2008, when the macbook air came out with the (now iconic), Glass capacitive Trackpad. The presentation repeatedly referenced the iphone and how they were learning from the iPhone and using it's tech. If you used a pre-2008 trackpad and then the modern Apple trackpad you would see massive differences.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    I don't remember the difference between the non-unibody and unibody trackpads being that dramatic. They were better, sure, but it was a difference of degree, whereas PC trackpads, especially of the time, were borderline unusable after you'd used a pre-unibody Mac one.

cycloptic 6y ago

As an open source developer, it is very hard to support hardware that I don't actually own and can't test on. It is also very hard to support obscure hardware that only has obfuscated closed-source drivers, or has no Linux drivers at all. This requires lots of trial-and-error and workarounds (in addition to the normal level of hardware-specific tweaks that have to go into something like libinput) and takes up a disproportionate amount of testing time. Some input devices fall in this category, such as those built into newer apple laptops.

DylanDmitri 6y ago

If old Surfaces had problems, the new ones don't. I've used a new MacBook and Surface daily for the last couple months, and the tracking performance and latency are indistinguishable. Haptic clicking is better on the Mac though.

solarkraft 6y ago

Still atrocious touchpad experience? If you discount the constant jumping around, which I experienced on every precision driver touchpad I have used (about 4, including a Macbook. Are MS complete idiots or is this another one of the problems normal people don't notice?!?!?!?!) my experience with them has actually been very good. The response is way more direct than on Linux and quite precise as well. Application support for scrolling is not great, but not horrible either (browsers, more popular MS apps and JetBrains IDEs work).

ubercow13 6y ago
Nope, I also have that problem. The same touchpad on Linux works flawlessly though.

chongli 6y ago

I think it’s due to the organizational structure of Apple which gives them a huge advantage over everyone else. In the Linux world, people point the finger at the driver developers who in turn point the finger at the hardware makers and firmware developers. Apple, on the other hand, has all of these folks working together, all the way up the stack to the UI toolkit and application layers. I fear that Linux touchpad support is a victim of Conway’s law [1] which means this problem can’t be solved by one specific team. It may mean rewriting the whole stack (and rewriting applications as a result). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law

baq 6y ago
except the culture of secrecy where you can't see your own bug reports after you file them [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21218413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21218413
- Redoubts 6y ago
  This is not generally true.

bregma 6y ago

Microsoft tried to compete with Apple by dictating to hardware vendors how they should write drivers for their touch input devices (the Microsoft HID guidelines). Of course, none of the hardware vendors could actually write drivers that fully conform to this standard, and the standard itself was not wholly adequate to compete with Apple. It causes problems. Linux slavishly adheres to the published Microsoft HID guidelines. Since neither Microsoft nor any of the hardware vendors do, it causes problems. The Microsoft HID guidelines dictate how packets of information are reported to userspace. That is information like touch id, touch size, velocity, and direction. The userspace then has to integrate the various data into touch and gesture recognition. A thousand different software developers do that a thousand different ways, mostly badly. The end result in the Windows and Linux world is a thousand different developers produce touch and gesture recognition software a thousand different ways of hundreds of different devices that work in completely different ways. A sort of orchestrated chaos like an ant colony. Apple dictated to its hardware vendors exactly how to write drivers that work with its software, and it has centralized software embedded in the OS to handle touch. A dozen expert developers do touch and gesture recognition for all apps using strictly controlled drivers from a select few vendors, all centrally controlled like a massive flock of starlings swooping and gliding and conducted by the ghost of Steve Jobs standing on the ground.