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For those who feel like a side project needs to be successful or reach a certain amount of revenue/lines of code/users to be successful in your eyes: Don't feel

For those who feel like a side project needs to be successful or reach a certain amount of revenue/lines of code/users to be successful in your eyes: Don't feel pressured. In my career (granted not a long one, but made it to C-Level in a startup after about 5-7 years) I've always used them to show my interest and learning skill to do something. It didn't matter whether it had 1 user or 1 million, employers were always very impressed and it always gives you an advantage during interviewing. Most of those have also been with very little or no code at all. I'm normally prioritising people with side projects in the recruiting process vs. people who only did school -> work

hackerbabz 7y ago
Are unfinished projects worth anything to an prospective employer? I have plenty of projects I attempted before getting busy with real life. Should I show those when asked for a Github?
- 74ls00 7y ago
  I do - assuming there’s actually something to show off then I put it up. I have static websites only half full of content, repositories with just an assortment of scripts and configs, libraries that are just enough to meet the use case, etc
- wastedhours 7y ago
  > unfinished projects Depends on the definition of "unfinished" - it's good to create something that's workable to some state (or at least demo something). If you're using a repo of unrunnable code as an example of your skills, you probably need to have a robust explanation of what needs to be done to get it working. However, I doubt lots of examples of half-complete projects will reflect too well, and might be more of a hindrance ("doesn't follow through, constantly jumping from thing to thing...") than a benefit. Pick one you're proud of and run with it, even if it's just a "this is the state, this is what I'd do to get it running...".
  - james_s_tayler 7y ago
    Pick one you're proud of and have the rest of the unfinished stuff as private repos.
- PaulRobinson 7y ago
  YMMV, but when I interview as an employer is ask a candidate to talk me through a project they really enjoyed. It can be work-based or a side-project, doesn't matter as long as it's something they really enjoyed. We then use that to explore what it was that excited them, the technology decisions they made, etc.[1] If your answer was an unfinished project, I'd want to know why they were unfinished. Did you give up on them because of external pressures, you had a better idea, or because you often struggle to finish things you've started? That last one is not alway a pejorative statement, BTW. Some people are great at figuring out the big stuff and then need others to help them execute on the detail (think about architects or producers). Others however, just give up at the first obstacle they meet, and if I get that impression from a candidate I'd want to dig into it a bit as it's possibly a yellow flag. My advice then: think carefully about what they are likely to ask you about those unfinished projects, and what your answers are likely to be, before you offer them up. [1] The most interesting answer to this question I've had was "an OpenGL renderer for the X Window System written in Lisp". My follow-up questions were many...
  - hackerbabz 7y ago
    Follow-up: Where do you think my time would be better spent preparing for a new job? Making a sideproject I can show off or doing interview puzzles?
    - throwaway92384 7y ago
      High-pay or high-reputation jobs where the employer can be selective (FAANG, quant finance) seem to test for high IQ with interview "puzzles" (computer science puzzles of course). Good employers, but who do not have more qualified candidates than they know what to do with, are already very happy with someone who simply has an interest in his job, as this is already rare enough. They pay attention to personal projects as signs that you actually belong in IT. Government and, by extension, the consultancies that cater to them, pay attention to diplomas. Bureaucracies recognizing the stamp of approval of another bureaucracy, is one way of looking at it.
    - watwut 7y ago
- matsemann 7y ago
  > unfinished projects Just redefine the scope, or the success criteria! If the project's purpose was to learn or experiment with X, it doesn't matter that it's not a polished product, it still served its purpose and as such can be considered done.
  - d0ugal 7y ago
    This. What is finished anyway? Are projects ever "finished"?
arvinsim 7y ago
If that is the case, wouldn't it be better to hone design and product skills instead of coding?
- austincheney 7y ago
  I learned product management skills from writing my unpopular side projects and responding to my users.
- HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
  If you're doing it even partly for purposes of looking good in an interview, I can assure you that it really doesn't matter. Pretty much anything you do other than just "I wrote this code at company A to do features B,C & D" will immediately set you apart from the crowd. I've interviewed well over 100 people and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number that even mentioned some kind of side project.
michaelbuckbee 7y ago
I've had the same experience, but just wanted to sum this up as it's advice I've given to others: make side projects public. This doesn't even have to be fancy, even just a list of projects on your own personal site with links to Github and what you learned/what you hoped to accomplish. Having the public list is also good as many times the projects might be done at the behest of a company or you don't have a good way to "show" them so it's your chance to write them up and get "credit" for your work on them.
alexpetralia 7y ago
One thing that's always helped me in interviews is to bring these side projects - physically - into the interview. Often it's customary to not bring anything but your resume. I typically bring a print-out of my projects, some GitHub code, some documentation samples, and maybe even my laptop with projects pre-opened so that we have things to talk about. I always qualify this as "just in case you are interested", but they are almost always interested. Nobody wants to talk about a bland resume; they'd rather talk about the things you found a genuine interest in.
- HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
  I've had co-workers remember, years after interviewing me, that I brought in some little piece of hardware I built to the interview. I've showed off circuit boards, half-baked Android apps and referenced webpages during interviews. It always helps. A couple years ago at an interview debrief, the HR guy said, "Oh, the candidate told me that he was writing some kind of software to automate his home. Who would do that? Weird." And every developer in the room looking at each other and saying "and you didn't think to tell us that?"
- vsareto 7y ago
  I've done this before (just the laptop and an HDMI cable) and also had success with it. It sort of wakes people up out of a traditional interview expectation and instead they now have to actually listen to what I'm saying rather than going through canned questions and answers.
zerr 7y ago
But there are lots of people who just learn without "polluting" the world with unfinished or finished but useless projects. Many don't see reason to dump yet another toy compiler, toy OS or similar project. i.e. it's not just "only did school" alternative.
coconutoctopus 7y ago
What's your path from developer to C-Level? I feel like the companies I've been at don't really let developers move up to management positions, unless you come from the outside or somehow gained management skills somewhere.
- freshfey 7y ago
  I started out in product management, junior level. Then product owner (focus mobile) later on head of product and then c-level. Developers (or PMs) who are interested in the business they work in and participate actively tend to get promoted/pushed. You have to understand the business perspective if you want to move up and get away from the thought of "I'm just here to develop and if I make the product great, everyone will recognize my talent/skill"
mkane848 7y ago
Hey, I know it's just a small comment on HN so I don't know the whole picture and you very well may already know/do this, but people who tend to have free time to just pump out side projects without worrying about work tend to be already-privileged people. I get what you mean about not even really needing the project to work, just show that you have an idea and wanna work on it, yadda yadda, but I think you'll eliminate some good candidates and hard workers if you see a lack of side projects as a lack of devotion or work ethic.
- user00012-ab 7y ago
  weird, at the hackspace I went to, there were plenty of "under-privileged" people doing amazing side work for the fun of it. Do we really need to start shaming people that actually do cool stuff?
- freshfey 7y ago
  No I get it, you're right. It's not that I'm counting them out, it's more of an advantage that people with side projects tend to have, but it's super individual and my opinion is just one of many.
  - user00012-ab 7y ago
    No, they are not right, they are very very wrong and probably just using this an excuse to be lazy; don't let people shame you for actually doing something.

hackerbabz 7y ago

Are unfinished projects worth anything to an prospective employer? I have plenty of projects I attempted before getting busy with real life. Should I show those when asked for a Github?

74ls00 7y ago
I do - assuming there’s actually something to show off then I put it up. I have static websites only half full of content, repositories with just an assortment of scripts and configs, libraries that are just enough to meet the use case, etc
wastedhours 7y ago
> unfinished projects Depends on the definition of "unfinished" - it's good to create something that's workable to some state (or at least demo something). If you're using a repo of unrunnable code as an example of your skills, you probably need to have a robust explanation of what needs to be done to get it working. However, I doubt lots of examples of half-complete projects will reflect too well, and might be more of a hindrance ("doesn't follow through, constantly jumping from thing to thing...") than a benefit. Pick one you're proud of and run with it, even if it's just a "this is the state, this is what I'd do to get it running...".
- james_s_tayler 7y ago
  Pick one you're proud of and have the rest of the unfinished stuff as private repos.
PaulRobinson 7y ago
YMMV, but when I interview as an employer is ask a candidate to talk me through a project they really enjoyed. It can be work-based or a side-project, doesn't matter as long as it's something they really enjoyed. We then use that to explore what it was that excited them, the technology decisions they made, etc.[1] If your answer was an unfinished project, I'd want to know why they were unfinished. Did you give up on them because of external pressures, you had a better idea, or because you often struggle to finish things you've started? That last one is not alway a pejorative statement, BTW. Some people are great at figuring out the big stuff and then need others to help them execute on the detail (think about architects or producers). Others however, just give up at the first obstacle they meet, and if I get that impression from a candidate I'd want to dig into it a bit as it's possibly a yellow flag. My advice then: think carefully about what they are likely to ask you about those unfinished projects, and what your answers are likely to be, before you offer them up. [1] The most interesting answer to this question I've had was "an OpenGL renderer for the X Window System written in Lisp". My follow-up questions were many...
- hackerbabz 7y ago
  Follow-up: Where do you think my time would be better spent preparing for a new job? Making a sideproject I can show off or doing interview puzzles?
  - throwaway92384 7y ago
    High-pay or high-reputation jobs where the employer can be selective (FAANG, quant finance) seem to test for high IQ with interview "puzzles" (computer science puzzles of course). Good employers, but who do not have more qualified candidates than they know what to do with, are already very happy with someone who simply has an interest in his job, as this is already rare enough. They pay attention to personal projects as signs that you actually belong in IT. Government and, by extension, the consultancies that cater to them, pay attention to diplomas. Bureaucracies recognizing the stamp of approval of another bureaucracy, is one way of looking at it.
  - watwut 7y ago
matsemann 7y ago
> unfinished projects Just redefine the scope, or the success criteria! If the project's purpose was to learn or experiment with X, it doesn't matter that it's not a polished product, it still served its purpose and as such can be considered done.
- d0ugal 7y ago
  This. What is finished anyway? Are projects ever "finished"?

arvinsim 7y ago

If that is the case, wouldn't it be better to hone design and product skills instead of coding?

austincheney 7y ago
I learned product management skills from writing my unpopular side projects and responding to my users.
HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
If you're doing it even partly for purposes of looking good in an interview, I can assure you that it really doesn't matter. Pretty much anything you do other than just "I wrote this code at company A to do features B,C & D" will immediately set you apart from the crowd. I've interviewed well over 100 people and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number that even mentioned some kind of side project.

michaelbuckbee 7y ago

I've had the same experience, but just wanted to sum this up as it's advice I've given to others: make side projects public. This doesn't even have to be fancy, even just a list of projects on your own personal site with links to Github and what you learned/what you hoped to accomplish. Having the public list is also good as many times the projects might be done at the behest of a company or you don't have a good way to "show" them so it's your chance to write them up and get "credit" for your work on them.

alexpetralia 7y ago

One thing that's always helped me in interviews is to bring these side projects - physically - into the interview. Often it's customary to not bring anything but your resume. I typically bring a print-out of my projects, some GitHub code, some documentation samples, and maybe even my laptop with projects pre-opened so that we have things to talk about. I always qualify this as "just in case you are interested", but they are almost always interested. Nobody wants to talk about a bland resume; they'd rather talk about the things you found a genuine interest in.

HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
I've had co-workers remember, years after interviewing me, that I brought in some little piece of hardware I built to the interview. I've showed off circuit boards, half-baked Android apps and referenced webpages during interviews. It always helps. A couple years ago at an interview debrief, the HR guy said, "Oh, the candidate told me that he was writing some kind of software to automate his home. Who would do that? Weird." And every developer in the room looking at each other and saying "and you didn't think to tell us that?"
vsareto 7y ago
I've done this before (just the laptop and an HDMI cable) and also had success with it. It sort of wakes people up out of a traditional interview expectation and instead they now have to actually listen to what I'm saying rather than going through canned questions and answers.

zerr 7y ago

But there are lots of people who just learn without "polluting" the world with unfinished or finished but useless projects. Many don't see reason to dump yet another toy compiler, toy OS or similar project. i.e. it's not just "only did school" alternative.

coconutoctopus 7y ago

What's your path from developer to C-Level? I feel like the companies I've been at don't really let developers move up to management positions, unless you come from the outside or somehow gained management skills somewhere.

freshfey 7y ago
I started out in product management, junior level. Then product owner (focus mobile) later on head of product and then c-level. Developers (or PMs) who are interested in the business they work in and participate actively tend to get promoted/pushed. You have to understand the business perspective if you want to move up and get away from the thought of "I'm just here to develop and if I make the product great, everyone will recognize my talent/skill"

mkane848 7y ago

Hey, I know it's just a small comment on HN so I don't know the whole picture and you very well may already know/do this, but people who tend to have free time to just pump out side projects without worrying about work tend to be already-privileged people. I get what you mean about not even really needing the project to work, just show that you have an idea and wanna work on it, yadda yadda, but I think you'll eliminate some good candidates and hard workers if you see a lack of side projects as a lack of devotion or work ethic.

user00012-ab 7y ago
weird, at the hackspace I went to, there were plenty of "under-privileged" people doing amazing side work for the fun of it. Do we really need to start shaming people that actually do cool stuff?
freshfey 7y ago
No I get it, you're right. It's not that I'm counting them out, it's more of an advantage that people with side projects tend to have, but it's super individual and my opinion is just one of many.
- user00012-ab 7y ago
  No, they are not right, they are very very wrong and probably just using this an excuse to be lazy; don't let people shame you for actually doing something.