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Asimov is on record as saying he didn’t help new writers because he wasn’t good at it. If the claim is that his behavior cost the speculative fiction world many

Asimov is on record as saying he didn’t help new writers because he wasn’t good at it. If the claim is that his behavior cost the speculative fiction world many young women writers, who exactly are the young men who were gained?

sinak 7y ago
The article doesn't claim that the harm to women was just from lack of mentorship. It states that Asimov's (repulsive) behavior made the sci-fi community inhospitable for women, particularly given his unique position as an incredibly popular author. From the article: > From an early age, Asimov was drawn to the communal aspects of fan culture, but he made it more difficult for women to experience that sense of community. Women have long occupied an ambiguous place in science fiction, where they have been alternately welcomed, dismissed, and harassed. Asimov took advantage of what he called the rising percentage of “shrill young girls” at conventions in the 1960s, and his unique position at such events—he was invariably the center of attention—made his example especially insidious. His admirers looked to him as a model of how to behave, and fandom was complicit for years in his serial misconduct in ways that have never been fully acknowledged. > Asimov has always meant a lot to me, and the best qualities of his work—his rationality, curiosity, and imagination—changed thousands of lives for the better. Yet the visible edifice of his hundreds of books needs to be balanced against the unseen wall that he built around the heart of science fiction. His actions had a negative impact on an untold number of women [...]
- LanceH 7y ago
  Yea, it's always someone else's fault. Too bad they couldn't cruise through life with the social status of science fiction/fantasy nerd. Doors threw themselves open. We need some real social scientists to step in and quantify exactly how wronged everyone has been. Then we can sort ourselves out and defer to those who have scored more offense points than ourselves. Or we could stop prosecuting 40+ year old rage on behalf of other people.
  - AlEinstein 7y ago
    And assaulting women at conventions is cool and normal because it’s what Asimov did, right?
    - worik 7y ago
      Yes. Young men emulate high status older men, that is what I have seen.
  - phs318u 7y ago
    Or we could learn from the past, like human beings have before. By acknowledging past mistakes and reassessing behaviours so we don’t repeat them. It’s called progress not rage. If anything, the tone I got from the author (and which I get reading it, as a fan who didn’t know this about Asimov), was one of profound sadness.
  - fatbird 7y ago
    One of the reasons for calling out Asimov like this is to establish that the norms that allowed him to get away with his behaviour are no longer acceptable, and to prevent this generation from pointing to them as models or excuses. There's a thoroughly practical reason for disinterring the greats like this.
- fearingreprisal 7y ago
  > From an early age, Asimov was drawn to the communal aspects of fan culture, but he made it more difficult for women to experience that sense of community. Women have long occupied an ambiguous place in science fiction, where they have been alternately welcomed, dismissed, and harassed... There's a common refrain heard recently regarding basically any historically male dominated domain, that women are not welcomed or encouraged. This is unfortunately all-too-common in software engineering. As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh and unwelcoming and feeling uniquely victimised.
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    Even if that were true, crab-in-a-bucket mentality doesn't do anything good.
    - fearingreprisal 7y ago
      Don't imply that I have a crab-in-a-bucket mentality. I don't want my industry to be unfriendly and unwelcoming. I didn't tell you how it has affected me personally either.
  - watwut 7y ago
    The main claim in article is the huge amount of women groped including odd example of shaking left breast instead of hand. Which leads to women finding excuses to not be in building when Asimov comes around. This sort of behavior makes community aspect of it all much different for both genders.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    > As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh and unwelcoming and feeling uniquely victimised. Have you ever had someone grab your ass or try to kiss you without consent in a professional context? Ever had a corporate officer seem interested in hiring you, call you in for an interview, ask you on a date, and then decide not to hire you when you rejected them? Ever been told on the first day by a new boss about their open relationship with their spouse, and their search for new sexual partners? Ever had a coworker make an overtly sexist joke about your gender to your face? Ever been propositioned for sex by a stranger at a conference? Ever heard a friend explain that “I would never work for a woman boss. No offense, you’re not like most women.” Ever been denied a new job or a promotion because the decision-maker thought you might have a child within the next few years? Ever been the clear expert or authority in a meeting with multiple people and been repeatedly interrupted by someone asking the clueless novice next to you to explain what you were just trying to say? Ever had a novice badly try to explain the content of your own book to you, even after you mentioned you were the author? Ever gone to speak at an event and had someone ask you which speaker was your spouse? Etc. etc. ad nauseam. If none of the above, then you probably are misunderstanding what people say when they claim to feel frequently unwelcome.

sinak 7y ago

The article doesn't claim that the harm to women was just from lack of mentorship. It states that Asimov's (repulsive) behavior made the sci-fi community inhospitable for women, particularly given his unique position as an incredibly popular author. From the article: > From an early age, Asimov was drawn to the communal aspects of fan culture, but he made it more difficult for women to experience that sense of community. Women have long occupied an ambiguous place in science fiction, where they have been alternately welcomed, dismissed, and harassed. Asimov took advantage of what he called the rising percentage of “shrill young girls” at conventions in the 1960s, and his unique position at such events—he was invariably the center of attention—made his example especially insidious. His admirers looked to him as a model of how to behave, and fandom was complicit for years in his serial misconduct in ways that have never been fully acknowledged. > Asimov has always meant a lot to me, and the best qualities of his work—his rationality, curiosity, and imagination—changed thousands of lives for the better. Yet the visible edifice of his hundreds of books needs to be balanced against the unseen wall that he built around the heart of science fiction. His actions had a negative impact on an untold number of women [...]

LanceH 7y ago
Yea, it's always someone else's fault. Too bad they couldn't cruise through life with the social status of science fiction/fantasy nerd. Doors threw themselves open. We need some real social scientists to step in and quantify exactly how wronged everyone has been. Then we can sort ourselves out and defer to those who have scored more offense points than ourselves. Or we could stop prosecuting 40+ year old rage on behalf of other people.
- AlEinstein 7y ago
  And assaulting women at conventions is cool and normal because it’s what Asimov did, right?
  - worik 7y ago
    Yes. Young men emulate high status older men, that is what I have seen.
- phs318u 7y ago
  Or we could learn from the past, like human beings have before. By acknowledging past mistakes and reassessing behaviours so we don’t repeat them. It’s called progress not rage. If anything, the tone I got from the author (and which I get reading it, as a fan who didn’t know this about Asimov), was one of profound sadness.
- fatbird 7y ago
  One of the reasons for calling out Asimov like this is to establish that the norms that allowed him to get away with his behaviour are no longer acceptable, and to prevent this generation from pointing to them as models or excuses. There's a thoroughly practical reason for disinterring the greats like this.
fearingreprisal 7y ago
> From an early age, Asimov was drawn to the communal aspects of fan culture, but he made it more difficult for women to experience that sense of community. Women have long occupied an ambiguous place in science fiction, where they have been alternately welcomed, dismissed, and harassed... There's a common refrain heard recently regarding basically any historically male dominated domain, that women are not welcomed or encouraged. This is unfortunately all-too-common in software engineering. As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh and unwelcoming and feeling uniquely victimised.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  Even if that were true, crab-in-a-bucket mentality doesn't do anything good.
  - fearingreprisal 7y ago
    Don't imply that I have a crab-in-a-bucket mentality. I don't want my industry to be unfriendly and unwelcoming. I didn't tell you how it has affected me personally either.
- watwut 7y ago
  The main claim in article is the huge amount of women groped including odd example of shaking left breast instead of hand. Which leads to women finding excuses to not be in building when Asimov comes around. This sort of behavior makes community aspect of it all much different for both genders.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  > As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh and unwelcoming and feeling uniquely victimised. Have you ever had someone grab your ass or try to kiss you without consent in a professional context? Ever had a corporate officer seem interested in hiring you, call you in for an interview, ask you on a date, and then decide not to hire you when you rejected them? Ever been told on the first day by a new boss about their open relationship with their spouse, and their search for new sexual partners? Ever had a coworker make an overtly sexist joke about your gender to your face? Ever been propositioned for sex by a stranger at a conference? Ever heard a friend explain that “I would never work for a woman boss. No offense, you’re not like most women.” Ever been denied a new job or a promotion because the decision-maker thought you might have a child within the next few years? Ever been the clear expert or authority in a meeting with multiple people and been repeatedly interrupted by someone asking the clueless novice next to you to explain what you were just trying to say? Ever had a novice badly try to explain the content of your own book to you, even after you mentioned you were the author? Ever gone to speak at an event and had someone ask you which speaker was your spouse? Etc. etc. ad nauseam. If none of the above, then you probably are misunderstanding what people say when they claim to feel frequently unwelcome.