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Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

367 points by ech085 7y ago

volfied 7y ago
Just played it with my 3 year old, and he had a real hard time with the "how many cats are ducks" kind of question... Cats can't be ducks after all! But he really enjoyed it otherwise, thank you for this, and thank you for making it open source!
halma 7y ago
I made a [fork](https://github.com/ahalma/cats-of-jasnah https://github.com/ahalma/cats-of-jasnah) that allows for some internationalization. Now you can play the game in Dutch or Spanish as well (or extend it for your own mother tongue). You can set the language via an URL parameter: https://ahalma.github.io/cats-of-jasnah/index.html?lang=es https://ahalma.github.io/cats-of-jasnah/index.html?lang=es
varunmohapatra 7y ago
how many cats are not red and are not ducks? Such kids, much wow!
chrisbennet 7y ago
Cool. Back in the ‘80’s there was a game called “Rocky’s Boots” that taught logic to kids. https://www.myabandonware.com/game/rockys-boots-cp https://www.myabandonware.com/game/rockys-boots-cp
- ech085 7y ago
  Nice! Logic gates no less. We will have to spin up dosbox and try it out if possible.
  - paleotrope 7y ago
    You can play it on the web. https://archive.org/details/Rockys_Boots_1982_Learning_Company https://archive.org/details/Rockys_Boots_1982_Learning_Compa...
gus_massa 7y ago
Nice project. Some ideas: When you click a number or press a key, the number should be highlighted for a short time. In some other games, after a wrong try the number disappear and in other games the number gets semitransparent and disabled. It makes the later tries easier, but my small daughter learned to bruteforce the tests :) . Sad cats when you get a wrong answer? Perhaps it's a bad idea. Super happy cats when you get the right answer? What about a mixed level, where you get some samples of the last two levels? (The last levels are not so easy.) What about dogs? I like dogs. :)
Arnavion 7y ago
Nice. The source is also very readable so I imagine it would also be useful to teach an older child about programming. I hit a bug though - level 7 generated a "how many cats are spinning" question whose answer is 10, but there's no "10" button and trying to type "1" "0" fails at the first "1". But I see `cats_for_level` allows there to be `level + 5` cats, so is there some way to input an answer greater than 9? Also, is it not confusing to have cats that are "also" ducks, rather than have a different kind of cat? Like cats with different-colored noses or have their mouth open. (In that puzzle 5 of the spinning cats are cats and the other 5 are ducks. But the dev console log does say it wants 10, not 5.)
- ech085 7y ago
  The bug is fixed, thanks for pointing this out!
- cbanek 7y ago
  I also hit a question on the highest level where I think the answer was 11, but there was no way to input a 2 digit number.
- joegahona 7y ago
  The ducks-as-cats part threw me too. Either they are ducks or they are cats dressed as ducks. "How many ducks are cats" doesn't make sense.
- Zecc 7y ago
  I got 12 cats and I tried all the buttons. Of course none worked. Checking the source I see the fault in line 296: max_cats = level + 5; At level 7 that's a possible maximum of 12. Edit: you've pointed this out in your comment and I somehow missed it.
avip 7y ago
Nice website. I like it. Please don't use it with your kids (of 2 to 4!!). There are more than enough actual objects scuttered in your house.
- stuartc842 7y ago
  agreed. this tool seems to optimize practicing logic more than enjoying logic. i think kids will find greater success in life with logic if they're taught to enjoy it before they're taught to master it. why do i think this? my dad wrote a "computer game" in 4th Dimension in the late 80s that was just randomized arithmetic problems. i had to get a certain score before i could play outside etc. i got really good at answering his program's stupid questions. i also learned to resent him for it and have negative associations w arithmetic to this day. i also quickly lost my "skills" and am bad at arithmetic now. it was a nice idea but please don't repeat his mistake.
  - robbrown451 7y ago
    This might be true if the idea of this app was something you were supposed to put your kid in front of for a few hours a day. To me it is just one thing, one of many, many things a kid will encounter, that help them understand concepts. It's not that different from the typical ad hoc "games" I play with my daughter, often while in the car. From "I spy with my little eye" to "what's the opposite of X" to "I'm thinking of a movie where there is a...." to "how many points on a star? how many wheels on a bicycle?" and so on. I'm not sure what sort of "enjoying logic" you are expecting from a 2-4 year old. Solving little puzzles actually seems pretty enjoyable to them, from my experience. This is not to suggest that it should come at the expense of more "natural" ways of learning logical concepts.
  - kubanczyk 7y ago
    > if they're taught to enjoy it Left to enjoy, eh? > I had to get a certain score before i could play outside Your intrinsic motivation was killed with extrinsic motivation. That's the lesson here. Exercises are okay. Children kinda like exercises - even stupid or pointless ones.
  - 7y ago
tlarkworthy 7y ago
Can ur kids read numbers?
- jecxjo 7y ago
  My two year old can read numbers up to 10. It takes a little while to go from the symbol to the amount but generally speaking she can do it. It's typically around 2 where you can start to learn letters and numbers and basic counting.
  - tlarkworthy 7y ago
    My twin 4 year olds could play the game no problem, but they cannot read numbers well so they just counted from the left. Turns out they knew 1-3 already, picked up 0 fast as it was the odd one out. I have not pushed numbers very much, they know more of the alphabet. I am not sure whether I should teach them numbers, I kind of think letting school do that might be better, but your comment has made me think a bit more.
paggle 7y ago
Kids of 2 to 4 shouldn’t be using screens.
- marshallant 7y ago
  Yeah ok buddy
- doctorOb 7y ago
  My friend has worked in a number of different pre-school facilities throughout Boston and most of them had a carved out screen based activity (usually tablets) for at least part of the day. I'm sure the science is still out but in practice it seems ubiquitous.
  - paggle 7y ago
    That’s a perk for the teachers who can relax or get the next activity ready while the kids zone out, not done in the direct interests of the children.
- rebuilder 7y ago
  Why is that? Is a coloring game on a tablet damaging? Is a coloring book not?
  - paggle 7y ago
    A coloring book teaches a billion times what a coloring app can teach. How materials feel, how to use haptic feedback to not break a crayon, how objects create sound as they touch, how different materials interact (eg pencil vs crayon), how friction changes based on force normal to the surface, how materials hardness affects abrasion and changes the shape of the crayon, how different items have different colors and how these can transfer between materials, etc... Kids 2 to 4 should not be using screens. They have too much to learn.
  - robbrown451 7y ago
    Personally I don't like anything with colors, since I see the world in black and white. (I'm kidding of course, I agree with your point)
stakhanov 7y ago
So, I am older than 4 and have a PhD in a logic-related field. BUT. I have to admit that I had trouble answering some of those questions. For example: "How many blue cats are not bouncing" when there are no blue cats on the screen. The game seems to assume that the right answer is zero, but I'm not sure I concur. There is a presupposition there about blue cats being in existence and if there are none on screen, the result is that, regarding blue cats, we don't have the required information to answer it. Better phrase it "How many cats are there on screen that are blue and bouncing?".
- SkyPuncher 7y ago
  While I understand your argument, I think there's value in the ambiguity. 1. Clarifying ambiguity and extrapolating are important logic skills. 2. "How many blue cats are not bouncing" is how people actually talk.
  - Ancient 7y ago
    I concur.
    - stakhanov 7y ago
      It's not ambiguous at all. The statement is perfectly clear. The statement is a contingency, i.e. a statement that is neither valid nor unsatisfiable. (Proof-theoretically: neither p nor not-p is provable. Model-theoretically: some assignment of truth values to p will make it true but not all of them). It would be a far more valuable lesson to teach children that talking about something doesn't will it into existence so that you can start making meaningful statements about it, like how many of them there were. It's like tampering with witness testimony: "Witness: Somebody stole my handbag. Police: Do you remember anything about him? Can you describe him?" All of a sudden the witness remembers that the suspect was male, not female, when the witness may not have seen such a thing at all. ...or like a show I recently saw on History Channel about the zombie apocalypse. Harvard Professor on TV: "Well, scientifically speaking, there is nothing to suggest that a zombie apocalypse would be a scenario we will likely ever be facing. But if there were such a thing as a zombie apocalypse then one of the most important things would be hygiene, so as to minimize the risk of infection, which is a fascinating topic that I have published about quite extensively." Reporter: "Oh, really? Tell me more about the hygiene precautions that we need to use in the event of a zombie apocalypse." Harvard professor: Spends the next 10 minutes of screentime talking about zombie hygiene. Dumb idiot in front of TV: "Honey! Come down here! They're talking about the zombie apocalypse on TV! They have a professor from Harvard and everything!" All of a sudden: The zombie apocalypse is a thing. Conversely: The fact that you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist... (like atoms)! "How many blue cats are there? -> zero." Might sound okay, but "How many atoms are there? -> zero" is quite wrong, since the cats are presumably composed of more than zero atoms but we can't really count them etc etc So when these kinds of presupposition violations come up, then you should teach your little daughter to go "Huh? What the? I can't answer that!" Because "Huh? What the? I can't answer that!" is actually the right answer!
turtlebits 7y ago
Controversial opinion, but I don't think kids ages 2 to 4 should be having screen time, let alone an activity that is better presented with real objects.
- colechristensen 7y ago
  Why? Many people have these "screen time" opinions. I'm not saying I disagree, but why do you think zero screen time is the correct amount?
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    2 to 4 is still early in the development of physical attributes, focus, hand eye coordination, balance and what have you. Zero intentional and structured screen time seems entirely appropriate. Let them develop a physical world and interact with it before encouraging screen addicted couch potato. That will come despite best efforts later...
    - jeswin 7y ago
      Do you have studies to prove that zero screen time is beneficial? I have a two year old who has learnt plenty from his screen time - between 15m to 30m per day.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - jonny_eh 7y ago
        Most recommendations are to limit screen time to 1 hour per day. https://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/public-health/screen-time-children-health-research/ https://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/public-healt...
      - leetrout 7y ago
        Anecdata - my kid is the same. She’s 22 months and can sing all the usual songs and names her shapes and colors aloud with the videos. It’s impressive and she can count like crazy from all of it (and out of order so it’s not _just_ rote memorization in order). We do push it at times when we are traveling or she’s sick where she will get 2-4 hours of iPad and videos along with her books. She will also pick a book over the iPad almost every time the choice is available so I am not worried (yet).
tom_mellior 7y ago
I think the digits should be arranged 0 to 9, not 1 to 9 followed by 0. Because 0 is less than 1. Also, when the correct answer is revealed, it would be great to somehow highlight the cats that are actually described by the formula. Yes, this is hard for 0. Also, the animations feel too fast to me. I find they make the whole thing stressful, somehow. ALSO, when a wrong answer is given, the question disappears! That's terrible UX. EDIT: I should add that I think the idea is great! But some details of the implementation could be improved.
- ech085 7y ago
  The first 2 items are fixed, thanks for the feedback!
- tom_mellior 7y ago
  Thinking about this some more, I think the UI should really be more about marking the selected cats than counting them. Then there could be nice diagnostics saying "you missed these ones", or "you marked this one which is X but not Y".
  - robbrown451 7y ago
    I think that would be a different game (or puzzle, or whatever you call this), and a dumbed down one. Maybe better referred to as "one that is aimed at younger kids." Taking away the counting is reducing the thinking they have to do. If that's your goal, ok, but I personally think the counting, while mixed in with the "set logic" part, is an important component. I could agree that you could have two modes, where that is one of them.
    - CriticalCathed 7y ago
      Aimed at younger than 2-4?
      - robbrown451 7y ago
        Do you think that the age range of 2-4 implies that it becomes appropriate exactly on their second birthday, and becomes no longer appropriate right on their fifth? I would assume that the range has blurry boundaries. And yes, I think it would shift it lower if you remove the counting element. I have no doubt that my own daughter, when aged 2.5 years old, would have struggled with it a lot more with the counting, than without. When she was 4.5 years old, she would have been a lot more bored with it if it didn't have the counting. I suppose there are other ways of putting it as well. I used "dumbed down" first, but that could be interpreted badly, like "appropriate for dumber kids", when I really mean "younger". But the point remains, you make it less challenging, make it take less cognitive effort, decrease its learning benefit, etc if you simplify it by removing the need to count and make it so the child only has to touch objects.
overlordalex 7y ago
I was not prepared for the text-to-speech blaring out at maximum volume without warning. I was further not prepared for "mute site" in chrome having no effect. Does anyone have any advice for blocking this behaviour on a global level? Just a warning for future explorers
- ech085 7y ago
  Thanks for the heads up, added this warning to the home screen. "Warning: the game will speak out loud (since young kids cannot read the questions), so check your volume."
- mobilemidget 7y ago
  heh :) only read this after trying while my notebook was muted. Quickly closed the tab before I accidentally unmute and wake the lil one Will be trying the counting part with kid next morning. I assume its random() based, did get a lot of 3 cats, specially in a row. Never 0 cats or more than 5. I would remove the answer buttons for 6 to 0, or a button to hide those maybe?
  - gvx 7y ago
    Higher levels have more cats, try the arrow at the top right of the page to go up a level.
- z3t4 7y ago
  I had the volume at 1% and I think it woke up half the house. Maybe a chromium bug?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
maxk42 7y ago
I noticed you don't have an eleven button: https://imgur.com/a/TK7Td2J https://imgur.com/a/TK7Td2J To be clear: I tried each number 0 - 9 to make sure none are correct. This question cannot be answered and blocks further progress.
- ech085 7y ago
  fixed
- djmips 7y ago
  You want them to turn it up to eleven?
rc_mob 7y ago
1. This is awesome 2. How can i turn it into an app for ipad use
- chrismatheson 7y ago
  Open it in a web browser on an iPad? :)
hluska 7y ago
My three year old says the cats are cutie pies. That’s very high praise...:) Nice work!
shmerl 7y ago
Reminds me Lewis Carrol's The Game of Logic: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4763/4763-h/4763-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4763/4763-h/4763-h.htm
rio517 7y ago
I never get more than five cats. Also it is Unclear how a kid wild get to the end of answering the same question set. Also, I kept getting the same number of cats in a row. It feels like something is wrong to get the exact same question.
- enjoyyourlife 7y ago
  Try the higher levels
rahimnathwani 7y ago
This looks great. Will definitely try it with my son. The first part is about 'counting', or maybe recognising a count without counting (I didn't count the cats 1-2-3, because I can instantly recognise 3 of something). If you're interested in exploring this further, the book How to Teach your Baby Math, by Glenn Doman, recommends teaching babies/toddlers numbers by showing them cards with dots on them, one at a time, whilst saying aloud the number of dots. Instead of making your own cards and using your own voice, you can run this web app and use your smartphone and thumb. https://dots.twilam.com/ https://dots.twilam.com/ The initial screen is blank. Tap anywhere on the screen to show some dots and hear the number. After about a second, the screen will again be blank, ready for you to tap again.
ErotemeObelus 7y ago
I'm not trying to dismiss your achievement but predicate logic/FOL is the real killer most people struggle with... and it's also the most important one!
cairo_x 7y ago
Keep getting asked to count 10 cats at levels 5 and up.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jasonsamoa 7y ago
This is amazing. Would love to see more simplified foundational education games such as this geared towards any audience and from all domains.
ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago
The robot voice is the deal breaker for me. That can't be good for a developing mind. Combine this with voice mimicking technology that was posted a few weeks ago.
emehrkay 7y ago
I think this onEnd callback is what allows you to spam the button and nothing changes on screen https://github.com/countable/cats-of-jasnah/blob/master/index.html#L428 https://github.com/countable/cats-of-jasnah/blob/master/inde... This is cool though. I never thought to build something to help teach my son anything
IG_Semmelweiss 7y ago
I have 3 questions. How many of you have 2 year olds that can read? For those that can read, was this thru your parental efforts, self taught, or daycare / 3rd party? How many languages can your 2 yr old read?
ilteris 7y ago
So many responses from people who are not target audience. Here is one from me so you can compare. I just played this with my daughter who is 4 year old. She have found the first 4 levels easy. She was having a little bit trouble with level 5 negation and conjunction but we had to take a break since we were running for a date. She didn't have any problem with zero being on the right. She didn't have any problem with linguistics compherension so far. She was able to differentiate colors and animating cats from the rest and it was perfect. She is familiar with digital buttons so she was able to press them but even with her tiny fingers sometimes pressing 4 instead of 5 etc. (We played on mobile) I direct the game for her. (Start, go up levels when she was bored) Overall thank you for this because she is going to have a gifted and talented "test" next week and this looked very similar to that and she was active and entertained choosing the answers so I can see this could be a good segway I to it.
- ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
  Seconding this. My daughter spent half hour playing this and absolutely loved it. Got up to level 5 and was doing OK but that's where she started to make a few mistakes. I agree with all your points.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    I'm not the target audience, but when doing the counting one I kept getting asked the same amount a few times in a row. Did this happen with your children? Did they have an issue with that? Personally I think that the same question shouldn't be asked multiple times consecutively. The most I had it happen was 4 times in a row but every other time except for twice times I had 2 in a row.
    - ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
      Nope, can't say I noticed that. We maybe had once or twice where the answer was the same as the last question, but in those cases the question was different. The only weighting issue I really noticed was that once you got to level 5 and higher, the number of questions who had zero as an answer started to get disproportionately high. Not constant zeroes, but noticeably more than any other answers.
leetrout 7y ago
Played the counting levels with my 22 month old who can count to 20. The only thing I would suggest from our experience is the cats “dressed up as ducks” was confusing for her.
freediver 7y ago
Great job, played all levels with my 4 year old and enjoyed. This can easily be an ipad app. Also my browser is lacking a tip button as this would have been a $5 tip easily.
- ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
  Couldn't agree more. I'd tip for this or buy it. My girl just spent a solid half hour playing it and got really into it.
terrycody 7y ago
How many cats are here? God please its 10, where is my 10,10, 100000,. no no1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sw its 10!!! tajsfueygfwfpawhfahfghf
seymores 7y ago
Thank you!
abraae 7y ago
I've found with two of my kids that they were really into paper-based logic puzzles using logic gates. I draw up a heap of multi-input AND and OR gates, and some inverters, then wire them together in more or less random ways. Then put 0 or 1 on all of the inputs, and get the kids to work out what some given output will be. The good things I've found are: - This seems easily within reach of my kids from age 5 or so, probably many could start even younger - all they need to get going is the concept of AND, OR and NOT, easily graspable - It's quite positive for their self-esteem, since what they're doing looks (especially to their seniors) insanely complex, but logic is really not that hard - It's paper-based, no screentime, pin them up on their wall when they're done - It's super quick to set up each "puzzle", and you don't even need to spend any time setting up some complicated trick answer, or even really testing your puzzle. Any old random logic circuits are great fun for them to step through and come up with the outputs. - you can step it up to more complex things - e.g. change up some of the inputs once they've got their first outputs, chuck in some flipflops etc.
- BenoitP 7y ago
  You might be interested in http://nandgame.com/ http://nandgame.com/ . It's sort of like the game they are already playing, and teaches them about CPU architecture.
  - abraae 7y ago
    That looks very interesting. Thanks!
mflyingget 7y ago
First of all, awesome amd thank you. Now one comment. Is it possible to (only after selecting the correct answer) to highlight the cats that are in the correct condition? This might help with visual reassurance of the correct answer. Cheers
skinnyasianboi 7y ago
That's very cool! I like that the whole project is packed into one html file and that you made it together with your daughter. I'm also working on an open source logic/math game for ~8+(depending on the mini game). If parents on HN are interested in trying it out with their children, please do it and give me feedback https://braincup.app/ https://braincup.app/
fiatjaf 7y ago
You don't want kids of that age to learn logic. You want them to learn imagination.
rancor 7y ago
This is a really good concept, definitely going to use it with the kiddo. On a laptop screen, the buttons could be bigger, hard to hit them with little fingers.
LeonB 7y ago
Thank you for this. My daughter really enjoyed it!
darepublic 7y ago
My three year old tried it and is enjoying these, thank you OP!
thecolorblue 7y ago
This is great. I love the concept. There is just enough UI to play. The 'cat-ducks' makes it fun. If I could add something, I would make getting an answer right a little more rewarding. A correct answer graphic, or a correct answer counter. I realize this is probably a proof of concept for a minimum viable game and standard game mechanics did not make the cut. I will test it out on my 3 year old tomorrow.

367 points by ech085 7y ago

Just played it with my 3 year old, and he had a real hard time with the "how many cats are ducks" kind of question... Cats can't be ducks after all! But he really enjoyed it otherwise, thank you for this, and thank you for making it open source!

halma 7y ago

I made a [fork](https://github.com/ahalma/cats-of-jasnah https://github.com/ahalma/cats-of-jasnah) that allows for some internationalization. Now you can play the game in Dutch or Spanish as well (or extend it for your own mother tongue). You can set the language via an URL parameter: https://ahalma.github.io/cats-of-jasnah/index.html?lang=es https://ahalma.github.io/cats-of-jasnah/index.html?lang=es

varunmohapatra 7y ago

how many cats are not red and are not ducks? Such kids, much wow!

chrisbennet 7y ago

Cool. Back in the ‘80’s there was a game called “Rocky’s Boots” that taught logic to kids. https://www.myabandonware.com/game/rockys-boots-cp https://www.myabandonware.com/game/rockys-boots-cp

ech085 7y ago
Nice! Logic gates no less. We will have to spin up dosbox and try it out if possible.
- paleotrope 7y ago
  You can play it on the web. https://archive.org/details/Rockys_Boots_1982_Learning_Company https://archive.org/details/Rockys_Boots_1982_Learning_Compa...

gus_massa 7y ago

Nice project. Some ideas: When you click a number or press a key, the number should be highlighted for a short time. In some other games, after a wrong try the number disappear and in other games the number gets semitransparent and disabled. It makes the later tries easier, but my small daughter learned to bruteforce the tests :) . Sad cats when you get a wrong answer? Perhaps it's a bad idea. Super happy cats when you get the right answer? What about a mixed level, where you get some samples of the last two levels? (The last levels are not so easy.) What about dogs? I like dogs. :)

Arnavion 7y ago

Nice. The source is also very readable so I imagine it would also be useful to teach an older child about programming. I hit a bug though - level 7 generated a "how many cats are spinning" question whose answer is 10, but there's no "10" button and trying to type "1" "0" fails at the first "1". But I see `cats_for_level` allows there to be `level + 5` cats, so is there some way to input an answer greater than 9? Also, is it not confusing to have cats that are "also" ducks, rather than have a different kind of cat? Like cats with different-colored noses or have their mouth open. (In that puzzle 5 of the spinning cats are cats and the other 5 are ducks. But the dev console log does say it wants 10, not 5.)

ech085 7y ago
The bug is fixed, thanks for pointing this out!
cbanek 7y ago
I also hit a question on the highest level where I think the answer was 11, but there was no way to input a 2 digit number.
joegahona 7y ago
The ducks-as-cats part threw me too. Either they are ducks or they are cats dressed as ducks. "How many ducks are cats" doesn't make sense.
Zecc 7y ago
I got 12 cats and I tried all the buttons. Of course none worked. Checking the source I see the fault in line 296: max_cats = level + 5; At level 7 that's a possible maximum of 12. Edit: you've pointed this out in your comment and I somehow missed it.

avip 7y ago

Nice website. I like it. Please don't use it with your kids (of 2 to 4!!). There are more than enough actual objects scuttered in your house.

stuartc842 7y ago
agreed. this tool seems to optimize practicing logic more than enjoying logic. i think kids will find greater success in life with logic if they're taught to enjoy it before they're taught to master it. why do i think this? my dad wrote a "computer game" in 4th Dimension in the late 80s that was just randomized arithmetic problems. i had to get a certain score before i could play outside etc. i got really good at answering his program's stupid questions. i also learned to resent him for it and have negative associations w arithmetic to this day. i also quickly lost my "skills" and am bad at arithmetic now. it was a nice idea but please don't repeat his mistake.
- robbrown451 7y ago
  This might be true if the idea of this app was something you were supposed to put your kid in front of for a few hours a day. To me it is just one thing, one of many, many things a kid will encounter, that help them understand concepts. It's not that different from the typical ad hoc "games" I play with my daughter, often while in the car. From "I spy with my little eye" to "what's the opposite of X" to "I'm thinking of a movie where there is a...." to "how many points on a star? how many wheels on a bicycle?" and so on. I'm not sure what sort of "enjoying logic" you are expecting from a 2-4 year old. Solving little puzzles actually seems pretty enjoyable to them, from my experience. This is not to suggest that it should come at the expense of more "natural" ways of learning logical concepts.
- kubanczyk 7y ago
  > if they're taught to enjoy it Left to enjoy, eh? > I had to get a certain score before i could play outside Your intrinsic motivation was killed with extrinsic motivation. That's the lesson here. Exercises are okay. Children kinda like exercises - even stupid or pointless ones.
- 7y ago

tlarkworthy 7y ago

Can ur kids read numbers?

jecxjo 7y ago
My two year old can read numbers up to 10. It takes a little while to go from the symbol to the amount but generally speaking she can do it. It's typically around 2 where you can start to learn letters and numbers and basic counting.
- tlarkworthy 7y ago
  My twin 4 year olds could play the game no problem, but they cannot read numbers well so they just counted from the left. Turns out they knew 1-3 already, picked up 0 fast as it was the odd one out. I have not pushed numbers very much, they know more of the alphabet. I am not sure whether I should teach them numbers, I kind of think letting school do that might be better, but your comment has made me think a bit more.

paggle 7y ago

Kids of 2 to 4 shouldn’t be using screens.

marshallant 7y ago
Yeah ok buddy
doctorOb 7y ago
My friend has worked in a number of different pre-school facilities throughout Boston and most of them had a carved out screen based activity (usually tablets) for at least part of the day. I'm sure the science is still out but in practice it seems ubiquitous.
- paggle 7y ago
  That’s a perk for the teachers who can relax or get the next activity ready while the kids zone out, not done in the direct interests of the children.
rebuilder 7y ago
Why is that? Is a coloring game on a tablet damaging? Is a coloring book not?
- paggle 7y ago
  A coloring book teaches a billion times what a coloring app can teach. How materials feel, how to use haptic feedback to not break a crayon, how objects create sound as they touch, how different materials interact (eg pencil vs crayon), how friction changes based on force normal to the surface, how materials hardness affects abrasion and changes the shape of the crayon, how different items have different colors and how these can transfer between materials, etc... Kids 2 to 4 should not be using screens. They have too much to learn.
- robbrown451 7y ago
  Personally I don't like anything with colors, since I see the world in black and white. (I'm kidding of course, I agree with your point)

stakhanov 7y ago

So, I am older than 4 and have a PhD in a logic-related field. BUT. I have to admit that I had trouble answering some of those questions. For example: "How many blue cats are not bouncing" when there are no blue cats on the screen. The game seems to assume that the right answer is zero, but I'm not sure I concur. There is a presupposition there about blue cats being in existence and if there are none on screen, the result is that, regarding blue cats, we don't have the required information to answer it. Better phrase it "How many cats are there on screen that are blue and bouncing?".

SkyPuncher 7y ago
While I understand your argument, I think there's value in the ambiguity. 1. Clarifying ambiguity and extrapolating are important logic skills. 2. "How many blue cats are not bouncing" is how people actually talk.
- Ancient 7y ago
  I concur.
  - stakhanov 7y ago
    It's not ambiguous at all. The statement is perfectly clear. The statement is a contingency, i.e. a statement that is neither valid nor unsatisfiable. (Proof-theoretically: neither p nor not-p is provable. Model-theoretically: some assignment of truth values to p will make it true but not all of them). It would be a far more valuable lesson to teach children that talking about something doesn't will it into existence so that you can start making meaningful statements about it, like how many of them there were. It's like tampering with witness testimony: "Witness: Somebody stole my handbag. Police: Do you remember anything about him? Can you describe him?" All of a sudden the witness remembers that the suspect was male, not female, when the witness may not have seen such a thing at all. ...or like a show I recently saw on History Channel about the zombie apocalypse. Harvard Professor on TV: "Well, scientifically speaking, there is nothing to suggest that a zombie apocalypse would be a scenario we will likely ever be facing. But if there were such a thing as a zombie apocalypse then one of the most important things would be hygiene, so as to minimize the risk of infection, which is a fascinating topic that I have published about quite extensively." Reporter: "Oh, really? Tell me more about the hygiene precautions that we need to use in the event of a zombie apocalypse." Harvard professor: Spends the next 10 minutes of screentime talking about zombie hygiene. Dumb idiot in front of TV: "Honey! Come down here! They're talking about the zombie apocalypse on TV! They have a professor from Harvard and everything!" All of a sudden: The zombie apocalypse is a thing. Conversely: The fact that you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist... (like atoms)! "How many blue cats are there? -> zero." Might sound okay, but "How many atoms are there? -> zero" is quite wrong, since the cats are presumably composed of more than zero atoms but we can't really count them etc etc So when these kinds of presupposition violations come up, then you should teach your little daughter to go "Huh? What the? I can't answer that!" Because "Huh? What the? I can't answer that!" is actually the right answer!

turtlebits 7y ago

Controversial opinion, but I don't think kids ages 2 to 4 should be having screen time, let alone an activity that is better presented with real objects.

colechristensen 7y ago
Why? Many people have these "screen time" opinions. I'm not saying I disagree, but why do you think zero screen time is the correct amount?
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  2 to 4 is still early in the development of physical attributes, focus, hand eye coordination, balance and what have you. Zero intentional and structured screen time seems entirely appropriate. Let them develop a physical world and interact with it before encouraging screen addicted couch potato. That will come despite best efforts later...
  - jeswin 7y ago
    Do you have studies to prove that zero screen time is beneficial? I have a two year old who has learnt plenty from his screen time - between 15m to 30m per day.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - jonny_eh 7y ago
      Most recommendations are to limit screen time to 1 hour per day. https://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/public-health/screen-time-children-health-research/ https://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/public-healt...
    - leetrout 7y ago
      Anecdata - my kid is the same. She’s 22 months and can sing all the usual songs and names her shapes and colors aloud with the videos. It’s impressive and she can count like crazy from all of it (and out of order so it’s not _just_ rote memorization in order). We do push it at times when we are traveling or she’s sick where she will get 2-4 hours of iPad and videos along with her books. She will also pick a book over the iPad almost every time the choice is available so I am not worried (yet).

tom_mellior 7y ago

I think the digits should be arranged 0 to 9, not 1 to 9 followed by 0. Because 0 is less than 1. Also, when the correct answer is revealed, it would be great to somehow highlight the cats that are actually described by the formula. Yes, this is hard for 0. Also, the animations feel too fast to me. I find they make the whole thing stressful, somehow. ALSO, when a wrong answer is given, the question disappears! That's terrible UX. EDIT: I should add that I think the idea is great! But some details of the implementation could be improved.

ech085 7y ago
The first 2 items are fixed, thanks for the feedback!
tom_mellior 7y ago
Thinking about this some more, I think the UI should really be more about marking the selected cats than counting them. Then there could be nice diagnostics saying "you missed these ones", or "you marked this one which is X but not Y".
- robbrown451 7y ago
  I think that would be a different game (or puzzle, or whatever you call this), and a dumbed down one. Maybe better referred to as "one that is aimed at younger kids." Taking away the counting is reducing the thinking they have to do. If that's your goal, ok, but I personally think the counting, while mixed in with the "set logic" part, is an important component. I could agree that you could have two modes, where that is one of them.
  - CriticalCathed 7y ago
    Aimed at younger than 2-4?
    - robbrown451 7y ago
      Do you think that the age range of 2-4 implies that it becomes appropriate exactly on their second birthday, and becomes no longer appropriate right on their fifth? I would assume that the range has blurry boundaries. And yes, I think it would shift it lower if you remove the counting element. I have no doubt that my own daughter, when aged 2.5 years old, would have struggled with it a lot more with the counting, than without. When she was 4.5 years old, she would have been a lot more bored with it if it didn't have the counting. I suppose there are other ways of putting it as well. I used "dumbed down" first, but that could be interpreted badly, like "appropriate for dumber kids", when I really mean "younger". But the point remains, you make it less challenging, make it take less cognitive effort, decrease its learning benefit, etc if you simplify it by removing the need to count and make it so the child only has to touch objects.

overlordalex 7y ago

I was not prepared for the text-to-speech blaring out at maximum volume without warning. I was further not prepared for "mute site" in chrome having no effect. Does anyone have any advice for blocking this behaviour on a global level? Just a warning for future explorers

ech085 7y ago
Thanks for the heads up, added this warning to the home screen. "Warning: the game will speak out loud (since young kids cannot read the questions), so check your volume."
mobilemidget 7y ago
heh :) only read this after trying while my notebook was muted. Quickly closed the tab before I accidentally unmute and wake the lil one Will be trying the counting part with kid next morning. I assume its random() based, did get a lot of 3 cats, specially in a row. Never 0 cats or more than 5. I would remove the answer buttons for 6 to 0, or a button to hide those maybe?
- gvx 7y ago
  Higher levels have more cats, try the arrow at the top right of the page to go up a level.
z3t4 7y ago
I had the volume at 1% and I think it woke up half the house. Maybe a chromium bug?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

maxk42 7y ago

I noticed you don't have an eleven button: https://imgur.com/a/TK7Td2J https://imgur.com/a/TK7Td2J To be clear: I tried each number 0 - 9 to make sure none are correct. This question cannot be answered and blocks further progress.

ech085 7y ago
fixed
djmips 7y ago
You want them to turn it up to eleven?

rc_mob 7y ago

1. This is awesome 2. How can i turn it into an app for ipad use

chrismatheson 7y ago
Open it in a web browser on an iPad? :)

hluska 7y ago

My three year old says the cats are cutie pies. That’s very high praise...:) Nice work!

shmerl 7y ago

Reminds me Lewis Carrol's The Game of Logic: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4763/4763-h/4763-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4763/4763-h/4763-h.htm

rio517 7y ago

I never get more than five cats. Also it is Unclear how a kid wild get to the end of answering the same question set. Also, I kept getting the same number of cats in a row. It feels like something is wrong to get the exact same question.

enjoyyourlife 7y ago
Try the higher levels

rahimnathwani 7y ago

This looks great. Will definitely try it with my son. The first part is about 'counting', or maybe recognising a count without counting (I didn't count the cats 1-2-3, because I can instantly recognise 3 of something). If you're interested in exploring this further, the book How to Teach your Baby Math, by Glenn Doman, recommends teaching babies/toddlers numbers by showing them cards with dots on them, one at a time, whilst saying aloud the number of dots. Instead of making your own cards and using your own voice, you can run this web app and use your smartphone and thumb. https://dots.twilam.com/ https://dots.twilam.com/ The initial screen is blank. Tap anywhere on the screen to show some dots and hear the number. After about a second, the screen will again be blank, ready for you to tap again.

ErotemeObelus 7y ago

I'm not trying to dismiss your achievement but predicate logic/FOL is the real killer most people struggle with... and it's also the most important one!

cairo_x 7y ago

Keep getting asked to count 10 cats at levels 5 and up.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jasonsamoa 7y ago

This is amazing. Would love to see more simplified foundational education games such as this geared towards any audience and from all domains.

ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago

The robot voice is the deal breaker for me. That can't be good for a developing mind. Combine this with voice mimicking technology that was posted a few weeks ago.

emehrkay 7y ago

I think this onEnd callback is what allows you to spam the button and nothing changes on screen https://github.com/countable/cats-of-jasnah/blob/master/index.html#L428 https://github.com/countable/cats-of-jasnah/blob/master/inde... This is cool though. I never thought to build something to help teach my son anything

IG_Semmelweiss 7y ago

I have 3 questions. How many of you have 2 year olds that can read? For those that can read, was this thru your parental efforts, self taught, or daycare / 3rd party? How many languages can your 2 yr old read?

ilteris 7y ago

So many responses from people who are not target audience. Here is one from me so you can compare. I just played this with my daughter who is 4 year old. She have found the first 4 levels easy. She was having a little bit trouble with level 5 negation and conjunction but we had to take a break since we were running for a date. She didn't have any problem with zero being on the right. She didn't have any problem with linguistics compherension so far. She was able to differentiate colors and animating cats from the rest and it was perfect. She is familiar with digital buttons so she was able to press them but even with her tiny fingers sometimes pressing 4 instead of 5 etc. (We played on mobile) I direct the game for her. (Start, go up levels when she was bored) Overall thank you for this because she is going to have a gifted and talented "test" next week and this looked very similar to that and she was active and entertained choosing the answers so I can see this could be a good segway I to it.

ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
Seconding this. My daughter spent half hour playing this and absolutely loved it. Got up to level 5 and was doing OK but that's where she started to make a few mistakes. I agree with all your points.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  I'm not the target audience, but when doing the counting one I kept getting asked the same amount a few times in a row. Did this happen with your children? Did they have an issue with that? Personally I think that the same question shouldn't be asked multiple times consecutively. The most I had it happen was 4 times in a row but every other time except for twice times I had 2 in a row.
  - ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
    Nope, can't say I noticed that. We maybe had once or twice where the answer was the same as the last question, but in those cases the question was different. The only weighting issue I really noticed was that once you got to level 5 and higher, the number of questions who had zero as an answer started to get disproportionately high. Not constant zeroes, but noticeably more than any other answers.

leetrout 7y ago

Played the counting levels with my 22 month old who can count to 20. The only thing I would suggest from our experience is the cats “dressed up as ducks” was confusing for her.

freediver 7y ago

Great job, played all levels with my 4 year old and enjoyed. This can easily be an ipad app. Also my browser is lacking a tip button as this would have been a $5 tip easily.

ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
Couldn't agree more. I'd tip for this or buy it. My girl just spent a solid half hour playing it and got really into it.

terrycody 7y ago

How many cats are here? God please its 10, where is my 10,10, 100000,. no no1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sw its 10!!! tajsfueygfwfpawhfahfghf

seymores 7y ago

Thank you!

abraae 7y ago

I've found with two of my kids that they were really into paper-based logic puzzles using logic gates. I draw up a heap of multi-input AND and OR gates, and some inverters, then wire them together in more or less random ways. Then put 0 or 1 on all of the inputs, and get the kids to work out what some given output will be. The good things I've found are: - This seems easily within reach of my kids from age 5 or so, probably many could start even younger - all they need to get going is the concept of AND, OR and NOT, easily graspable - It's quite positive for their self-esteem, since what they're doing looks (especially to their seniors) insanely complex, but logic is really not that hard - It's paper-based, no screentime, pin them up on their wall when they're done - It's super quick to set up each "puzzle", and you don't even need to spend any time setting up some complicated trick answer, or even really testing your puzzle. Any old random logic circuits are great fun for them to step through and come up with the outputs. - you can step it up to more complex things - e.g. change up some of the inputs once they've got their first outputs, chuck in some flipflops etc.

BenoitP 7y ago
You might be interested in http://nandgame.com/ http://nandgame.com/ . It's sort of like the game they are already playing, and teaches them about CPU architecture.
- abraae 7y ago
  That looks very interesting. Thanks!

mflyingget 7y ago

First of all, awesome amd thank you. Now one comment. Is it possible to (only after selecting the correct answer) to highlight the cats that are in the correct condition? This might help with visual reassurance of the correct answer. Cheers

skinnyasianboi 7y ago

That's very cool! I like that the whole project is packed into one html file and that you made it together with your daughter. I'm also working on an open source logic/math game for ~8+(depending on the mini game). If parents on HN are interested in trying it out with their children, please do it and give me feedback https://braincup.app/ https://braincup.app/

fiatjaf 7y ago

You don't want kids of that age to learn logic. You want them to learn imagination.

rancor 7y ago

This is a really good concept, definitely going to use it with the kiddo. On a laptop screen, the buttons could be bigger, hard to hit them with little fingers.

LeonB 7y ago

Thank you for this. My daughter really enjoyed it!

darepublic 7y ago

My three year old tried it and is enjoying these, thank you OP!

thecolorblue 7y ago

This is great. I love the concept. There is just enough UI to play. The 'cat-ducks' makes it fun. If I could add something, I would make getting an answer right a little more rewarding. A correct answer graphic, or a correct answer counter. I realize this is probably a proof of concept for a minimum viable game and standard game mechanics did not make the cut. I will test it out on my 3 year old tomorrow.