8 ms·

I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain develop

I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) is definitely a bad idea, as it will prevent the endocannabinoid system to develop correctly. I would not dismiss teen smoking/vaping as a public health concern, it's not just about counterfeiting, I think we need better education about the risks and benefits.

wbronitsky 7y ago
What have you been reading? Can you share some of that data with us so we can come to a common understanding? I was under the impression that this was not a fact, just a supposition; I would love to be enlightened!
- gewrtw45 7y ago
  > The team found that persistent marijuana use was linked to a decline in IQ, even after the researchers controlled for educational differences. The most persistent users — those who reported using the drug in three or more waves of the study — experienced a drop in neuropsychological functioning equivalent to about six IQ points (PNAS, 2012). "That's in the same realm as what you'd see with lead exposure," says Weiss. "It's not a trifle." > a number of studies have found evidence of brain changes in teens and young adults who smoke marijuana. In 2013, Rocío Martín-Santos, MD, PhD, at the University of Barcelona, and colleagues reviewed 43 studies of chronic cannabis use and the brain. They found consistent evidence of both structural brain abnormalities and altered neural activity in marijuana users. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain
  - jbob2000 7y ago
    That's great, but what does that actually mean for someone? Does it mean that they are less happy? Does it mean that they earn less money? Does it mean they have less meaningful relationships? I understand the mechanisms behind marijuana use, but what is the real effect on a person's life?
    - throwawaypa123 7y ago
      You can't really A/B test humans. Best thing that could be done is twin studies and even those have flaws. By the way your line of questioning implies an agenda. I don't have an issue with that, but thought I'd highlight that for you.
      - jbob2000 7y ago
        Everyone has an agenda. What agenda do you think I'm pursuing? Do you think it's one of harm-reduction? Or legalization in pursuit of business opportunities? Or legalization for recreation? Or for medicinal use? Or is my agenda that I have another product in mind that solves all of these things without the side effects of marijuana?
        throwawaypa123 7y ago
        I can appreciate the perspective of "everyone has an agenda". Some people attempt a almost a fact based conversation that is an exploration of a topic. Others have an opinion they want to push on others. I don't even try to figure out what someone agenda is. I look that there is one and stop focusing too hard right there and then. I also suspect, I'm not the only one who operates like this. If I have an agenda, it is to limit emotion in communication and make things more fact based. This communication is likely to fail. To reiterate, many people don't care to figure out what the agenda is and just ignore those who has one. Here i'm using agenda to stand for the typical partisan politics or other "normative" behavior.
    - yonaguska 7y ago
      From the linked article > Heavy marijuana use in adolescence or early adulthood has been associated with a dismal set of life outcomes including poor school performance, higher dropout rates, increased welfare dependence, greater unemployment and lower life satisfaction.
      - jklinger410 7y ago
        Considering that Marijuana is illegal, this seems impossible to prove. Show me the development of a teen in a society where open marijuana consumption is a non-issue to compare against.
  - eikenberry 7y ago
    Given that they use IQ as a measure also goes to show how little they understand the effects at this point. So take this all with a grain of salt. The best evidence at this point is that adolescent use has some effect on long term memory formation, but even that needs much more study to be understood it. Nothing in the brain works on a simple better/worse scale.
    - riversflow 7y ago
      Yeah, I’m highly skeptical that marijuana makes you legitimately more dumb. If I had to guess, I’d suspect that there are other factors that lead to this result. I’m skeptical because I have seen friends and acquaintances who were “dulled out” by drugs during this period of their life. While many of them were “heavy users” of marijuana, all of them were dulled from other psychotropic drugs(ecstasy being the big one), and most of them lost more than 6-8 IQ points. More like 20+ points. If anything, I’d say that marijuana use tends to make the brain more doubtful, even of itself. In real life this is a mostly positive trait, but it is punished by the IQ test I think.
jbob2000 7y ago
What are the side effects of this system developing incorrectly?
- rriepe 7y ago
  If you smoke heavily and quit, your endocannabinoid system underperforms by about 20% for two or three weeks. It basically dulls pleasure in everything, producing anhedonia, depressed appetite and irritability. It impacts sleep negatively too.
  - omarchowdhury 7y ago
    How long does it take for full recovery?
    - eikenberry 7y ago
      As he said, a couple weeks.
    - MS90 7y ago
      Each time I've quit for an extended period of time it's taken me about three weeks to feel normal. During those weeks I definitely feel more grumpy and irritable. I'm also curious as to whether THC or other chemicals in the smoke have any effect on the body's thermoregulation, because each time I've quit I've also woken up drenched in sweat every night for about the first week or so. Crazy dreams as well. These have all been me going cold turkey after heavy daily use for extended periods of time.
      - dzhiurgis 7y ago
        I find sleep changes really noticeable, so so everyone else. Dreams become very vivid for couple of days to a point of discomfort. When you smoke i never dream. When you stop body overcompensates.
        rconti 7y ago
EEor 7y ago
This is just my experience, but my endocannabinoid system is just flourishing. I, unfortunately, started smoking cannabis at age 16 and was using daily by age 18. I quit for 5 or so years in my mid-twenties and picked it up again in my early 30s.
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
I'm very much for pro-fact-based drug education. Not just for THC, but for the most common things that folks can come into contact with. No scare tactics, just answering questions like what happens to one's body, what "high" feels like, realistic methods of ingestion, and benefits. Unfortunately, the greater public - the government at least - hasn't been so keen on such things because the focus is more on keeping drugs a scary evil. Even current drug education is such, though thankfully it isn't so "Drugs are bad, mkay?" as it was during the 'just say no' heydays in the 80's and 90's.
- bdamm 7y ago
  Indeed, we seem to have ample evidence that Tylenol seems to be strongly associated with autism[1] and weakly with ADHD[2], yet its use is not only widespread but unquestioned. The problem, of course, is that it's complicated; correlation isn't necessarily causation. So how to respond? Should all high school students be taught how to think critically of bioscience results? It's not easy to distill down to distinct usable facts. Suggesting at all that it is safe for teens to vape THC is a very dangerous proposition. I think you'd have to at least prove that it is safer than lead in gasoline, and that is not easy. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737 [2] https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10/26/peds.2016-3840 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10...
  - Geimfari 7y ago
    Your first source is a bad one but here is a review: [1] The association is really not strong but the authors do advice against indiscriminate paracetamol use. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528
    - kyuudou 7y ago
      Tylenol/paracetamol use should be sparing to begin with just because of its harsh effect on the liver.
Donald 7y ago
The brain's corpus callosum continues developing into a person's mid 20's.
guelo 7y ago
Pro-legalization activists always over-claim marijuana's safety which has led to the claimed safety entering pop culture and becoming widely believed. The truth is that there is little solid research into the question.
- MiroF 7y ago
  Hard to do research when marijuana is illegal.
SkyBelow 7y ago
>before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) Last I remember from my psychology classes, it was 25 to 28. 21 feels like a number picked to reflect law and cultural norms, not the science. But my information is a decade out of date and there could have been new findings since.
- e40 7y ago
  I thought 25 was chosen because that's when brain development is mostly completed.
  - taurath 7y ago
    This has become quite the meme lately as a pop-neurology fact, but its... clearly untrue the ways people try to apply it. It creates a sort of fatalism about being able to improve or change your mind that in no way reflects whats actually possible.
- MiroF 7y ago
  I haven't seen studies supporting 25-28. Most studies support a slightly lower number than 21, but not much lower.
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    25 to 28 is when the myelination of the brain finishes. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/myelination https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/... >Further myelination of subcortical and cortical tracts continues in the posterior to anterior direction well into the third decade of life, consistent with the time course of maturation of cognitive functions in children and adolescents. Mish Shoykhet, Robert S.B. Clark, in Pediatric Critical Care (Fourth Edition), 2011
tomphoolery 7y ago
> I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) is definitely a bad idea, as it will prevent the endocannabinoid system to develop correctly. I've been smoking every day since I was 19 (currently 31), and my endocannabinoid system seems perfectly fine. Most of my peers have the same story, or have been smoking daily for longer. I think what you've been reading is incorrect. For future reference, I've noticed when people begin a sentence with "I am not a [lawyer|doctor|engineer]", they are typically incorrect.
- 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
  Weed can trigger latent schizophrenia if used at a younger age. It is not a good idea to use before the brain is developed, especially if one is predisposed to mental illnesses like schizophrenia. It also alters testosterone synthesis, so there’s that too.
  - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
    Leaving home to go to college can trigger latent schizophrenia too. So can a bad breakup with a girl or boyfriend. I’m not sure how useful that actually is.
simonsarris 7y ago
Agree. Here's one: http://m.pnas.org/content/109/40/E2657.full http://m.pnas.org/content/109/40/E2657.full (2012) "Persistent cannabis users show neuropsychological decline from childhood to midlife"
denkmoon 7y ago
It's certainly not a good thing. Is it comparatively better than other risky activities associated with young adults, such as binge drinking? I think yes.
- liveoneggs 7y ago
  that oil-causing-lung-failure thing was no joke
  - Zpalmtree 7y ago
    But that wasn't from marijuana, it was from dodgy chinese carts
  - dwrodri 7y ago
    The deaths caused by the THC oil are definitely nothing to scoff at, but they are more reflective of cannabis' 70+ years as a black market product than they are of the effects cannabis has on the human body. The CDC has determined that a high concentration of Vitamin E was the likely cause of lung failure for the afflicted [1]. In my opinion, this reinforces how important regulatory bodies are when it comes to things that we put into our bodies. If we choose to continuously gravitate towards giving citizens greater bodily autonomy, it is extremely important that we ensure people know what's going into their body and the risks associated with it.
    - thatcat 7y ago
      The deaths were caused because vitamin E acetate requires bile salts to be absorbed, which are not present in the lungs. It had nothing to do with THC. https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124166875/essentials-of-medical-biochemistry https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124166875/essentials-...
      - dwrodri 7y ago
        Looking back at my comment I see how my language wasn’t as clear as I thought. Thank you for clarifying, this is what I was trying to say. THC/Cannabinoids weren’t the issue, contaminants in the oil were.

wbronitsky 7y ago

What have you been reading? Can you share some of that data with us so we can come to a common understanding? I was under the impression that this was not a fact, just a supposition; I would love to be enlightened!

gewrtw45 7y ago
> The team found that persistent marijuana use was linked to a decline in IQ, even after the researchers controlled for educational differences. The most persistent users — those who reported using the drug in three or more waves of the study — experienced a drop in neuropsychological functioning equivalent to about six IQ points (PNAS, 2012). "That's in the same realm as what you'd see with lead exposure," says Weiss. "It's not a trifle." > a number of studies have found evidence of brain changes in teens and young adults who smoke marijuana. In 2013, Rocío Martín-Santos, MD, PhD, at the University of Barcelona, and colleagues reviewed 43 studies of chronic cannabis use and the brain. They found consistent evidence of both structural brain abnormalities and altered neural activity in marijuana users. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain
- jbob2000 7y ago
  That's great, but what does that actually mean for someone? Does it mean that they are less happy? Does it mean that they earn less money? Does it mean they have less meaningful relationships? I understand the mechanisms behind marijuana use, but what is the real effect on a person's life?
  - throwawaypa123 7y ago
    You can't really A/B test humans. Best thing that could be done is twin studies and even those have flaws. By the way your line of questioning implies an agenda. I don't have an issue with that, but thought I'd highlight that for you.
    - jbob2000 7y ago
      Everyone has an agenda. What agenda do you think I'm pursuing? Do you think it's one of harm-reduction? Or legalization in pursuit of business opportunities? Or legalization for recreation? Or for medicinal use? Or is my agenda that I have another product in mind that solves all of these things without the side effects of marijuana?
      - throwawaypa123 7y ago
        I can appreciate the perspective of "everyone has an agenda". Some people attempt a almost a fact based conversation that is an exploration of a topic. Others have an opinion they want to push on others. I don't even try to figure out what someone agenda is. I look that there is one and stop focusing too hard right there and then. I also suspect, I'm not the only one who operates like this. If I have an agenda, it is to limit emotion in communication and make things more fact based. This communication is likely to fail. To reiterate, many people don't care to figure out what the agenda is and just ignore those who has one. Here i'm using agenda to stand for the typical partisan politics or other "normative" behavior.
  - yonaguska 7y ago
    From the linked article > Heavy marijuana use in adolescence or early adulthood has been associated with a dismal set of life outcomes including poor school performance, higher dropout rates, increased welfare dependence, greater unemployment and lower life satisfaction.
    - jklinger410 7y ago
      Considering that Marijuana is illegal, this seems impossible to prove. Show me the development of a teen in a society where open marijuana consumption is a non-issue to compare against.
- eikenberry 7y ago
  Given that they use IQ as a measure also goes to show how little they understand the effects at this point. So take this all with a grain of salt. The best evidence at this point is that adolescent use has some effect on long term memory formation, but even that needs much more study to be understood it. Nothing in the brain works on a simple better/worse scale.
  - riversflow 7y ago
    Yeah, I’m highly skeptical that marijuana makes you legitimately more dumb. If I had to guess, I’d suspect that there are other factors that lead to this result. I’m skeptical because I have seen friends and acquaintances who were “dulled out” by drugs during this period of their life. While many of them were “heavy users” of marijuana, all of them were dulled from other psychotropic drugs(ecstasy being the big one), and most of them lost more than 6-8 IQ points. More like 20+ points. If anything, I’d say that marijuana use tends to make the brain more doubtful, even of itself. In real life this is a mostly positive trait, but it is punished by the IQ test I think.

jbob2000 7y ago

What are the side effects of this system developing incorrectly?

rriepe 7y ago
If you smoke heavily and quit, your endocannabinoid system underperforms by about 20% for two or three weeks. It basically dulls pleasure in everything, producing anhedonia, depressed appetite and irritability. It impacts sleep negatively too.
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  How long does it take for full recovery?
  - eikenberry 7y ago
    As he said, a couple weeks.
  - MS90 7y ago
    Each time I've quit for an extended period of time it's taken me about three weeks to feel normal. During those weeks I definitely feel more grumpy and irritable. I'm also curious as to whether THC or other chemicals in the smoke have any effect on the body's thermoregulation, because each time I've quit I've also woken up drenched in sweat every night for about the first week or so. Crazy dreams as well. These have all been me going cold turkey after heavy daily use for extended periods of time.
    - dzhiurgis 7y ago
      I find sleep changes really noticeable, so so everyone else. Dreams become very vivid for couple of days to a point of discomfort. When you smoke i never dream. When you stop body overcompensates.
      - rconti 7y ago

EEor 7y ago

This is just my experience, but my endocannabinoid system is just flourishing. I, unfortunately, started smoking cannabis at age 16 and was using daily by age 18. I quit for 5 or so years in my mid-twenties and picked it up again in my early 30s.

Broken_Hippo 7y ago

I'm very much for pro-fact-based drug education. Not just for THC, but for the most common things that folks can come into contact with. No scare tactics, just answering questions like what happens to one's body, what "high" feels like, realistic methods of ingestion, and benefits. Unfortunately, the greater public - the government at least - hasn't been so keen on such things because the focus is more on keeping drugs a scary evil. Even current drug education is such, though thankfully it isn't so "Drugs are bad, mkay?" as it was during the 'just say no' heydays in the 80's and 90's.

bdamm 7y ago
Indeed, we seem to have ample evidence that Tylenol seems to be strongly associated with autism[1] and weakly with ADHD[2], yet its use is not only widespread but unquestioned. The problem, of course, is that it's complicated; correlation isn't necessarily causation. So how to respond? Should all high school students be taught how to think critically of bioscience results? It's not easy to distill down to distinct usable facts. Suggesting at all that it is safe for teens to vape THC is a very dangerous proposition. I think you'd have to at least prove that it is safer than lead in gasoline, and that is not easy. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737 [2] https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10/26/peds.2016-3840 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10...
- Geimfari 7y ago
  Your first source is a bad one but here is a review: [1] The association is really not strong but the authors do advice against indiscriminate paracetamol use. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528
  - kyuudou 7y ago
    Tylenol/paracetamol use should be sparing to begin with just because of its harsh effect on the liver.

Donald 7y ago

The brain's corpus callosum continues developing into a person's mid 20's.

guelo 7y ago

Pro-legalization activists always over-claim marijuana's safety which has led to the claimed safety entering pop culture and becoming widely believed. The truth is that there is little solid research into the question.

MiroF 7y ago
Hard to do research when marijuana is illegal.

SkyBelow 7y ago

>before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) Last I remember from my psychology classes, it was 25 to 28. 21 feels like a number picked to reflect law and cultural norms, not the science. But my information is a decade out of date and there could have been new findings since.

e40 7y ago
I thought 25 was chosen because that's when brain development is mostly completed.
- taurath 7y ago
  This has become quite the meme lately as a pop-neurology fact, but its... clearly untrue the ways people try to apply it. It creates a sort of fatalism about being able to improve or change your mind that in no way reflects whats actually possible.
MiroF 7y ago
I haven't seen studies supporting 25-28. Most studies support a slightly lower number than 21, but not much lower.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  25 to 28 is when the myelination of the brain finishes. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/myelination https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/... >Further myelination of subcortical and cortical tracts continues in the posterior to anterior direction well into the third decade of life, consistent with the time course of maturation of cognitive functions in children and adolescents. Mish Shoykhet, Robert S.B. Clark, in Pediatric Critical Care (Fourth Edition), 2011

tomphoolery 7y ago

> I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) is definitely a bad idea, as it will prevent the endocannabinoid system to develop correctly. I've been smoking every day since I was 19 (currently 31), and my endocannabinoid system seems perfectly fine. Most of my peers have the same story, or have been smoking daily for longer. I think what you've been reading is incorrect. For future reference, I've noticed when people begin a sentence with "I am not a [lawyer|doctor|engineer]", they are typically incorrect.

0x8BADF00D 7y ago
Weed can trigger latent schizophrenia if used at a younger age. It is not a good idea to use before the brain is developed, especially if one is predisposed to mental illnesses like schizophrenia. It also alters testosterone synthesis, so there’s that too.
- amanaplanacanal 7y ago
  Leaving home to go to college can trigger latent schizophrenia too. So can a bad breakup with a girl or boyfriend. I’m not sure how useful that actually is.

simonsarris 7y ago

Agree. Here's one: http://m.pnas.org/content/109/40/E2657.full http://m.pnas.org/content/109/40/E2657.full (2012) "Persistent cannabis users show neuropsychological decline from childhood to midlife"

denkmoon 7y ago

It's certainly not a good thing. Is it comparatively better than other risky activities associated with young adults, such as binge drinking? I think yes.

liveoneggs 7y ago
that oil-causing-lung-failure thing was no joke
- Zpalmtree 7y ago
  But that wasn't from marijuana, it was from dodgy chinese carts
- dwrodri 7y ago
  The deaths caused by the THC oil are definitely nothing to scoff at, but they are more reflective of cannabis' 70+ years as a black market product than they are of the effects cannabis has on the human body. The CDC has determined that a high concentration of Vitamin E was the likely cause of lung failure for the afflicted [1]. In my opinion, this reinforces how important regulatory bodies are when it comes to things that we put into our bodies. If we choose to continuously gravitate towards giving citizens greater bodily autonomy, it is extremely important that we ensure people know what's going into their body and the risks associated with it.
  - thatcat 7y ago
    The deaths were caused because vitamin E acetate requires bile salts to be absorbed, which are not present in the lungs. It had nothing to do with THC. https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124166875/essentials-of-medical-biochemistry https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124166875/essentials-...
    - dwrodri 7y ago
      Looking back at my comment I see how my language wasn’t as clear as I thought. Thank you for clarifying, this is what I was trying to say. THC/Cannabinoids weren’t the issue, contaminants in the oil were.