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One of the main reasons why I dropped BTC. "Getting rich" at cost of the environment (extremely high resource consumption)? No thanks, I'd rather leave that wo

by y3k 7y ago

One of the main reasons why I dropped BTC. "Getting rich" at cost of the environment (extremely high resource consumption)? No thanks, I'd rather leave that world for future generations.

newnewpdro 7y ago
I have similar feelings, but if you apply this attitude uniformly it's nearly impossible to participate in the economy at all, since it's mostly riding on fossil fuels in one way or another. At least with bitcoin you could theoretically throw up a pile of solar panels and directly convert that clean electricity into money.
MuffinFlavored 7y ago
At current difficulty rates, what is the profitability formula for cost of electricity versus hashrate? example: if you aren't getting X Mh/s @ $Y kw/h, it isn't profitable?
- y3k 7y ago
  I'm not "smart enough" to calculate that acurately, but if the "cost per transaction" is high enough to get a couple of articles written about it, I won't participate into that. I'm more worried about humanity having a future.
- iopq 7y ago
  Depends on the hardware, mining difficulty, block reward. Right now? Something like 0.15 per kw/h is the break-even point, and if you're not getting below 0.10 you won't get the cost of your hardware back fast enough In other words, you should mine if you're in China where you can get those rates
  - paulmd 7y ago
    to add: china often pays zero, because they're bribing local officials to ignore their bitcoin farms
    - celticninja 7y ago
      Pays zero what? They have to buy the hardware so I assume you mean electricity, pretty sure bribing allows them to operate, it doesn't cover electricity costs.
      - paulmd 7y ago
        pays zero electricity costs, yes. A couple grand a year can buy you all the electricity you want. tens or hundreds or of grand per year, or millions. A couple grand is a lot in terms of China salaries. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/12/chinese-police-crack-down-on-bitcoin-miners-over-3m-of-stolen-electricity https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/12/chinese-police... http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2143758/chinese-household-caught-stealing-electricity-power-its-home http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2143758/chine... https://www.ccn.com/chinese-police-seize-600-bitcoin-mining-computers-over-electricity-theft/ https://www.ccn.com/chinese-police-seize-600-bitcoin-mining-... http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2108486/four-accused-stealing-power-chinese-oil-company-generate-bitcoins http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2108486/four-... https://kyc360.com/article/bitcoin-causes-electricity-crisis-parts-china-fresh-crackdown-looms/ https://kyc360.com/article/bitcoin-causes-electricity-crisis... you'll never find a systematic article on it, but these aren't the first or the last incidents. they also pay much lower hardware costs than the US does, because it all happens off the books. Chinese mining farms with internal hardware/super cheap power are nothing new. china doesn't and never has played fairly in terms of hardware or power costs. crypto as a whole has been embraced because it's a good system to move value past chinese capital controls, you just are getting your beak wet as that money moves. just like those 2 million dollar houses in vancouver or whatever. Sure, it's great to be trading in that current, or providing property management services, or to be holding the asset as it's pumped up by that money moving under the chinese capital controls!
- wmf 7y ago
  There are various calculators that can do this for you and you can easily try different scenarios. https://btc.com/tools/mining-calculator https://btc.com/tools/mining-calculator https://www.nicehash.com/profitability-calculator/bitmain-antminer-s17-pro-50th https://www.nicehash.com/profitability-calculator/bitmain-an...
cwkoss 7y ago
I think the traditional stock market has significantly greater environmental externalities, even proportionally to net value. Greed creates waste in all venues.
- the_gastropod 7y ago
  I very much doubt that. You have a source?
  - cwkoss 7y ago
    The financial sector is 20% of global GDP. Bitcoin is much less than 20% of world carbon emissions. Further, fiduciary duty of corporations to maximize shareholder profit has led to almost every environmentally harmful exploit of externalities. I'd argue that the stock market is fundamentally responsible for 99% of all pollution.
    - paulmd 7y ago
      Financial sector does not produce 20% of carbon emissions. They are maybe 0.1%. The act of trading on exchanges is significantly more efficient than the act of trading on blockchain. Because there really is no need for an untrusted ledger when there is the USG certifying that the NYSE and NASDAQ will not execute erroneous trades. Bitcoin does not eliminate the idea of fiduciary duty. Bitcoin holders still expect bitcoin loanees to trade and operate in their financial interest.
      - cwkoss 7y ago
        > Because there really is no need for an untrusted ledger when there is the USG certifying that the NYSE and NASDAQ will not execute erroneous trades. What is the emission cost of the system which enables this functionality?
        paulmd 7y ago
        for processing/validating transactions? couple hundred MWH. How much do you think the Nasdaq/NYSE mainframes really eat? bitcoin numbers don't include the off-chain stuff either, lol. Bitcoin energy is literally expended on a massive, inefficient mainframe that processes a couple hundred transactions a second. That's all - everything else is additional to that.
lone_haxx0r 7y ago
Do/Will you also not have any children? Because that would probably make a better impact than not using Bitcoin.
sodafountan 7y ago
Wow that's really noble of you, have you considered logging off permanently and living in a tent in the woods? You realize none of the world's problems ever get solved if you bury your head in the sand and ignore things right? I mean we could all go back and start living in caves again, that would certainly solve the climate crisis wouldn't it?
newguy1234 7y ago
Same here but I left because of the high transaction costs and low anonymity. I prefer privacy coins. Only problem is not many people use the smaller market cap coins for buying/selling stuff.

by y3k 7y ago

One of the main reasons why I dropped BTC. "Getting rich" at cost of the environment (extremely high resource consumption)? No thanks, I'd rather leave that world for future generations.

newnewpdro 7y ago

I have similar feelings, but if you apply this attitude uniformly it's nearly impossible to participate in the economy at all, since it's mostly riding on fossil fuels in one way or another. At least with bitcoin you could theoretically throw up a pile of solar panels and directly convert that clean electricity into money.

MuffinFlavored 7y ago

At current difficulty rates, what is the profitability formula for cost of electricity versus hashrate? example: if you aren't getting X Mh/s @ $Y kw/h, it isn't profitable?

y3k 7y ago
I'm not "smart enough" to calculate that acurately, but if the "cost per transaction" is high enough to get a couple of articles written about it, I won't participate into that. I'm more worried about humanity having a future.
iopq 7y ago
Depends on the hardware, mining difficulty, block reward. Right now? Something like 0.15 per kw/h is the break-even point, and if you're not getting below 0.10 you won't get the cost of your hardware back fast enough In other words, you should mine if you're in China where you can get those rates
- paulmd 7y ago
  to add: china often pays zero, because they're bribing local officials to ignore their bitcoin farms
  - celticninja 7y ago
    Pays zero what? They have to buy the hardware so I assume you mean electricity, pretty sure bribing allows them to operate, it doesn't cover electricity costs.
    - paulmd 7y ago
      pays zero electricity costs, yes. A couple grand a year can buy you all the electricity you want. tens or hundreds or of grand per year, or millions. A couple grand is a lot in terms of China salaries. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/12/chinese-police-crack-down-on-bitcoin-miners-over-3m-of-stolen-electricity https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/12/chinese-police... http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2143758/chinese-household-caught-stealing-electricity-power-its-home http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2143758/chine... https://www.ccn.com/chinese-police-seize-600-bitcoin-mining-computers-over-electricity-theft/ https://www.ccn.com/chinese-police-seize-600-bitcoin-mining-... http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2108486/four-accused-stealing-power-chinese-oil-company-generate-bitcoins http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2108486/four-... https://kyc360.com/article/bitcoin-causes-electricity-crisis-parts-china-fresh-crackdown-looms/ https://kyc360.com/article/bitcoin-causes-electricity-crisis... you'll never find a systematic article on it, but these aren't the first or the last incidents. they also pay much lower hardware costs than the US does, because it all happens off the books. Chinese mining farms with internal hardware/super cheap power are nothing new. china doesn't and never has played fairly in terms of hardware or power costs. crypto as a whole has been embraced because it's a good system to move value past chinese capital controls, you just are getting your beak wet as that money moves. just like those 2 million dollar houses in vancouver or whatever. Sure, it's great to be trading in that current, or providing property management services, or to be holding the asset as it's pumped up by that money moving under the chinese capital controls!
wmf 7y ago
There are various calculators that can do this for you and you can easily try different scenarios. https://btc.com/tools/mining-calculator https://btc.com/tools/mining-calculator https://www.nicehash.com/profitability-calculator/bitmain-antminer-s17-pro-50th https://www.nicehash.com/profitability-calculator/bitmain-an...

cwkoss 7y ago

I think the traditional stock market has significantly greater environmental externalities, even proportionally to net value. Greed creates waste in all venues.

the_gastropod 7y ago
I very much doubt that. You have a source?
- cwkoss 7y ago
  The financial sector is 20% of global GDP. Bitcoin is much less than 20% of world carbon emissions. Further, fiduciary duty of corporations to maximize shareholder profit has led to almost every environmentally harmful exploit of externalities. I'd argue that the stock market is fundamentally responsible for 99% of all pollution.
  - paulmd 7y ago
    Financial sector does not produce 20% of carbon emissions. They are maybe 0.1%. The act of trading on exchanges is significantly more efficient than the act of trading on blockchain. Because there really is no need for an untrusted ledger when there is the USG certifying that the NYSE and NASDAQ will not execute erroneous trades. Bitcoin does not eliminate the idea of fiduciary duty. Bitcoin holders still expect bitcoin loanees to trade and operate in their financial interest.
    - cwkoss 7y ago
      > Because there really is no need for an untrusted ledger when there is the USG certifying that the NYSE and NASDAQ will not execute erroneous trades. What is the emission cost of the system which enables this functionality?
      - paulmd 7y ago
        for processing/validating transactions? couple hundred MWH. How much do you think the Nasdaq/NYSE mainframes really eat? bitcoin numbers don't include the off-chain stuff either, lol. Bitcoin energy is literally expended on a massive, inefficient mainframe that processes a couple hundred transactions a second. That's all - everything else is additional to that.

lone_haxx0r 7y ago

Do/Will you also not have any children? Because that would probably make a better impact than not using Bitcoin.

sodafountan 7y ago

Wow that's really noble of you, have you considered logging off permanently and living in a tent in the woods? You realize none of the world's problems ever get solved if you bury your head in the sand and ignore things right? I mean we could all go back and start living in caves again, that would certainly solve the climate crisis wouldn't it?

newguy1234 7y ago

Same here but I left because of the high transaction costs and low anonymity. I prefer privacy coins. Only problem is not many people use the smaller market cap coins for buying/selling stuff.