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I'm the sole developer working on my current project, which is overhauling a massive DOS era application, as well as overhauling an early 2000s era CRM/business

I'm the sole developer working on my current project, which is overhauling a massive DOS era application, as well as overhauling an early 2000s era CRM/business management tool, that almost all of our work happens through. Did I mention that the DOS application is a HIPAA billing application that must meet all HIPAA guidelines as well as write EDI X12 billing files? I'm very junior, been coding for ~5 years, 3 professionally, but this is my first real dumpster fire. We were about to hire a second developer, but turns out he had a record. Not for just anything, which we don't really worry about, but for embezzlement on the healthcare billing application he used to own. So, no. No can do. So now poor 18-year-old me is knee-deep in a ton of shit I don't understand, working on non-version-controlled code, having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO, and trying to get details out of my older supervisor who built the code we're using, but he's near retirement and has so many vacation days saved up that he spends maybe 10 days a month in the office. I honestly can't blame him, but I either need resources to help me deal with legacy code, or a nice entry-level rails job, because I want to finish learning rails.

reificator 7y ago
> working on non-version-controlled code, having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO I've been there. Run.
- rjplatte 7y ago
  I'm studying hard, but learning new stuff while learning other new stuff is hard.
  - reificator 7y ago
    Listen. If not using version control is a problem for you, you're already more hirable than a lot of developers I've seen. Learning is always important but don't use that to procrastinate. You don't have to go straight to the best job in the world. Just find something better (and do your homework to verify) and take it.
    - rjplatte 7y ago
      I'm in a small city, where not much work is available. I need to pad my resume a little more to make the work I do more attractive, but the reality is that LAMP devs aren't in high demand near me. I apply to several jobs daily, but not much is around. I'd appreciate pointers on how to improve my prospects, but the last place I interviewed was a seedy adult entertainment company, and I wouldn't have taken an offer if they begged, simply for personal reasons.
      - reificator 7y ago
        You said you're 18, you're young and hopefully don't have kids, so apply in other cities as well. Yeah it's scary. But if the job is good enough, and the pay is good enough, then you've got to figure out why your bullshit reason for staying where you are outweighs both your mental health and your career prospects. EDIT: And don't forget remote options.
        shantly 7y ago
        God, at 18—or hell, at 22—showing the fuck up and not seeming entirely incompetent is a big deal. Show up, be engaged, do both consistently, and anyone who's not a total piece of crap will be all over giving you more responsibility and mentoring you up to bigger and better things. Total pieces of crap may still be interested, but it'll be in exploiting you (as in current situation). Oh, and ask questions. No one expects you to know diddly-squat, so ask away. Ask about stuff that's not part of your job description at all. People will tell you all kinds of stuff, and, incredibly, the whole exchange will make them like you more. Phenomenally small amounts of give-a-shit go a long way for youngsters. It's basically their superpower, if they're willing and able to use it.
      - eropple 7y ago
        I know a bunch of remote-hiring places and if nothing else I'd be happy to help you figure out what to learn (and, probably, how to approach it) to GTFO. Email is in my profile.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
  - Sophistifunk 7y ago
    When this goes sideways, and it will, they will try to pin it on you. You need to GTFO.
  - crististm 7y ago
    This is called rationalizing. Get out. Strategically, not on a whim. Hunt for another job.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- lacampbell 7y ago
  I'm bewildered as to why a CEO would have any opinion on version control at all. Or why you'd ask a CEO whether you could use one. It's like a builder asking a construction company CEO if he can hold a hammer lower in his hand and that CEO forbidding it. Can someone explain?
  - zdragnar 7y ago
    A good friend of mine worked for a small company whose CEO also tried hard to convince him that introducing version control was wrong. Of course, this same CEO also didn't see any problem with the fact that the password field in the login form was never checked against the database, because who would know someone else's login name?
    - lacampbell 7y ago
      Why is a CEO even getting involved in an issue on that low a level? Unless these are 'CEOs' of 3 people tech companies, I guess.
      - toomanybeersies 7y ago
        OP said they are the sole developer on their project, so it sounds like they are. Gotta love those companies where there are more board members than employees.
        lacampbell 7y ago
        I'm not exactly at a fortune 500. I'm one of two developers at my company and it would be hilarious to me if my CEO (who seems like a nice enough guy) even knew what version control was. Then again, this isn't a tech company.
      - zdragnar 7y ago
        Small company, maybe a dozen people total, only tech-adjacent, not a strictly tech company. The CEO (which, for a company this size, probably also meant owner and perhaps sole board member) and maybe a fee other people at most had built the site in question.
- rubyfan 7y ago
  Also run for all the other stuff you said before that.
burnte 7y ago
> having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO You can run a local git repo, no code would ever leave your PC. I'd do taht, and damn the torpedoes. If he is dumb enough to say no versioning, he'll never know you run it locally.
thijsvandien 7y ago
What are the arguments against version control here (if any)? Honestly the project sounds quite interesting, but I can imagine the circumstances make it painful.
- reificator 7y ago
  > What's are the arguments against version control here (if any)? * I don't understand it * You're overcomplicating things * We're not using any of that free shit here * It doesn't say Microsoft or IBM * The last guy we hired that tried to use it was smarter than I was so anyone else who tries is a threat to my leadership. (because everyone knows you can only manage people who have a strict subset of your own knowledge. If one of your peons dared learn something before you, that would be the end of your reign.) the list goes on...
  - ken 7y ago
    > It doesn't say Microsoft or IBM GitHub does, now, though I really hope that isn’t necessary for a company to adopt version control.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      And Visual Source Safe and TFS did previously.
  - skellera 7y ago
    Why didn’t you just recommend Azure Repos? It’s a great product and fits what you need. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-au/services/devops/repos/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-au/services/devops/repos/
    - reificator 7y ago
      * Azure means cloud and cloud means no * It didn't exist at the time, but there was an on-prem that MS offered a few years back. It was forced on another department with no version control experience. It lasted about two weeks.
protomyth 7y ago
working on non-version-controlled code, having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO Did the CEO give a reason? I'm a bit curious based on it being billing and HIPPA. Also, are you rolling your own EDI import/export?
- etxm 7y ago
  HIPAA
  - reificator 7y ago
    I don't work with HIPAA but with other compliance/regulations NOT using version control is the problem. Unless you have patient information hardcoded into the source code for god knows what reason...
    - marrone12 7y ago
      Things that might be hardcoded are access keys and passwords to PII databases.
      - rovr138 7y ago
        Which is bad practice for lots of reasons and, is that a HIPAA violation? Your code also has it then. Hosting git externally might be an issue though.
      - all_usernames 7y ago
        No. No no no no no.
  - other_herbert 7y ago
    You're not storing patient details in VC...... Right? Maybe show him that you can run svn even on his own machine... Anything... Anything is better than not using something
  - technomike 7y ago
lunaru 7y ago
I didn’t see any contact info on your profile but if you’re looking for a Rails gig, let’s chat. Ping me at my profile email.
- shantly 7y ago
  Seriously, the GP comment makes me wish I had a job to offer, not just due to sympathy but because any 18-year-old who is even sort of managing to tackle that problem and also knows that lack of VC is a serious red flag is probably worth an interview.
blotter_paper 7y ago
>having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO Well that's really fucking stupid of them. Maybe they're worried about evidence of old HIPAA breaches existing after the system gets updated, and doesn't want to explain that logic? On your local development station: mkdir repo cd repo git init --bare cd .. git clone repo project_folder cd project_folder cp -r ../<path_to_project>/project project Congratulations, you now have version control for local development that your CEO never has to know about! The only reason I'd suggest an extra folder (horribly named project_folder in the example above) is so that you never accidentally copy the hidden .git files when moving it from your dev station.
- MichaelMoser123 7y ago
  https://stackoverflow.com/questions/505467/can-i-store-the-git-folder-outside-the-files-i-want-tracked https://stackoverflow.com/questions/505467/can-i-store-the-g... you dont need to copy files, just tell git to store its data in another dir
  - spookyuser 7y ago
    Wow thank you so much for this. There's some stuff I've been working on which I want to sync to Dropbox as I type but without the .git being synced too. Up until now I've just had to deal with the .git files being synced with Dropbox. But now it looks like I finally have a way of moving the repo!
    - dotancohen 7y ago
      If your bosses are concerned about Git, then they will likely have a fit over Dropbox. Get permission first, it is not worth your job.
      - mdaniel 7y ago
        it is not worth your job in a thread entitled "who wants to be fired"? This entire thread discussion is filled with it's not worth it, but towards the "no one should be forced to work like that" kind of way
house9-2 7y ago
> working on non-version-controlled code, having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO Version Control is a basic requirement of professional software development in this day and age. You could try explaining to your CEO it would be like telling a carpenter they can't use a hammer to build your new house. Or just take the initiative and use Version Control without telling them. In my mind it isn't something you need to ask permission for.
- marrone12 7y ago
  This is bad advice. If you accidentally leave personally identifiable healthcare information on some random stage server and that server gets hacked, that is a federal crime. If the data and application code are very intertwined (likely in a pre-SOA era), it can be very difficult to version control code completely isolated from PII.
  - house9-2 7y ago
    > If you accidentally leave personally identifiable healthcare information on some random stage server and that server gets hacked, that is a federal crime. Not sure how that relates to Version Control? I personally don't put production (real) data on staging servers to begin with; always scrub your production clones or generate data for testing instances. > If the data and application code are very intertwined (likely in a pre-SOA era), it can be very difficult to version control code completely isolated from PII. Maybe I am naive (never had to work on DOS), but shouldn't the data be in a database/datastore/data directory that can be ignored by source control?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - wbl 7y ago
    Huh? Why would the code have medical data in it?
    - 7y ago
Chirael 7y ago
You may find this article helpful in some way: “How to Improve a Legacy Codebase” [0] [0] https://jacquesmattheij.com/improving-a-legacy-codebase https://jacquesmattheij.com/improving-a-legacy-codebase
syntheno 7y ago
Yo, git can be used locally. I highly recommend it.
- ru999gol 7y ago
  this whole story probably just boils down to people not understanding the difference between github and git.
bloopernova 7y ago
You do know that HIPAA violations can land you in jail, right? Run. Don't walk. Vacate immediately. Leave. I'm finding myself hoping that this is a fake, because I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone at all.
- aussieguy1234 7y ago
  This might be why the CEO doesn't want version control. It's extra evidence
  - JanisL 7y ago
    Unfortunately wouldn't be the first time I've heard something like this :(
- chaostheory 7y ago
  Not just jail, you are also now personally liable. Meaning your personal assets are on the table for a lawsuit (at least according to Stanford’s HIPAA training)
- hacknat 7y ago
  You won’t go to jail if you do nothing wrong, but legal fees. Ugh, yeah, you’ll be in court as a witness and possibly defendant if you don’t leave ASAP.
  - rovr138 7y ago
    Or if they have a better lawyer than yours.
    - hacknat 7y ago
      Well that would be the OCR. It’s doubtful they would waste a lot of resources going after a developer, unless they really thought he had done something. Usually they go after leadership.
whateveracct 7y ago
If you're that young (18??), you can almost definitely afford to quit tomorrow and look for something better. Never sacrifice your own career for your employer's success (within some time horizon.) Being willing to quit when your boss is a clear bad actor is a core part of this.
- protomyth 7y ago
  If you're that young (18??), you can almost definitely afford to quit tomorrow and look for something better. It very probably is the opposite. A lot of people who end up working at 18 are doing it because they need the money and their support network is poor.
  - gravypod 7y ago
    Can confirm. Been working as a SWE full time and trying to finish my degree since 19. I would not take this pile of stress if I had a pile of money.
  - whateveracct 7y ago
    That's a good point. If things will go to shit if you quit, by all means don't. But regardless look to secure a job before quitting.
  - rconti 7y ago
    It's hard when you're young (no savings, car payment, whatever).. but it gets harder before it gets easier. This is a time in your life when you're (hopefully) not supporting anyone else, don't have a ton of possessions, don't have a mortgage, can couch-surf, eat ramen, etc.
    - rjplatte 7y ago
      Well, yeah, no. Family is leaving the country, S/O got kicked out, and I have a Great Pyrenees.
- brucedawson 7y ago
iamsb 7y ago
You are 18 and been working professionally for 3 years. Well done. All said and done this is what matters. Real life experience over university education.
- BalinKing 7y ago
  One thing for GP to consider: I did the exact same thing (worked for three years in software development), but now I’m back at school in college. This obviously depends on if you think school is worth it (I did), but I wouldn’t be surprised if my work experience before college helped me stand out in the application process. Either way, good luck!
james_s_tayler 7y ago
Wow. Just wow. Run. There is no way this will end well. No version control = no way. You're junior in years, but 3 years working professionally makes you perhaps less junior than you think. It's right around the point it becomes easier to get other jobs.
systematical 7y ago
I worked for a "CTO" who didn't allow us to use version control either. This was from 2007-2010. I am surprised there is a company TODAY that does this, but I guess I shouldn't be. The reasoning behind not using VC was that it "caused more problems than it solved." His solution? Code directly on the production server. Yep. You heard me right. Let me say that one more time. Code directly on the production server. We eventually finally won a development server and wrote some bash scripts to deploy from there, but we never actually got SVN or anything. Imagine working on five person development team with no version control. The guy was a serious joke. The VC issue is just one of many. A serious despot. The guy was hated by all. We laughed at him. Why would I stick that out for three years? I had zero experience when hired. All of us were very green. We were all just putting in our time to hit that magic three years experience checkbox we needed for the next level gig. The CTO was more concerned with appearing to have a large department and having developers working on lots of different things, than actual quality. We wrote some pretty terrible code back in those days and we did a lot of it on a production server during business hours. We all left at or around the three-year mark. Month by month the "CTO" lost developers faster than he could replace them. The "CTO" was eventually fired and we laughed from afar. You are being taken advantage of like I was when I first started. You are cheap labor. Your CEO doesn't care about the product. Your CEO likely doesn't care about your career development. The sooner you leave, the more you will learn and grow. That was my experience.
- rpmisms 7y ago
  I'm the GP, on my work account. Yes. That is exactly what we do. It's horrifying.
  - kabdib 7y ago
    The good news is that there are fantastically good shops to work for (you should start looking for one), and that you'll have some good stories to tell about the hellmouth that was your first company. But yeah, get the heck out of there.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > Code directly on the production server. Yep. You heard me right. Let me say that one more time. Code directly on the production server. What a coincidence! We have a customer that is having a strange, hard-to-nail-down problem with our software. We asked if we could provide a diagnostic build to them that they could run in their test environment to gather additional information about what was happening. Their reply was that they didn't have a test environment. They just install any software they get directly to their production machines. Complete insanity.
throwaway010718 7y ago
Before quitting, try your best to make changes that will reduce stress and improve the project's manageablity with or without permission. Your work sounds so mission critical you could probably do whatever you want with no chance of getting fired. Just be able to justify your action and communicate your decisions clearly. You'll start earning respect and that alone will reduce your stress levels. Standing up for yourself is hard to do at any age and "learned helplessness" is a concern if you don't push yourself.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
I worked in insurance for over five years (at a Fortune 500 company). I had annual HIPAA training. I was in claims, so I'm not sure how pertinent this will be to your needs, but here is some stuff I remember: 1. HIPAA has a minimum necessary standard of disclosure, which means give only however much info you must give to accomplish the task in question. 2. You need at least three pieces of identifying info to positively ID an account, such as name, address and account number. (Other possibilities include: Social security number; date of birth; phone number.) 3. When disposing of papers or other media containing covered information, it must be destroyed, not merely thrown out. This means papers, floppy disks, etc must be shredded. 4. If you're printing a lot of papers with HIPAA covered info, you should have a locked trash can for any papers you are discarding. Presumably, this is merely a holding bin until it gets shredded. 5. Papers with pertinent info should be turned face down if anyone comes to your cubicle to talk, even a coworker. Ditto for papers coming off the printer containing covered info. 6. You need an annual HIPAA training program to remind everyone of a lot of the above (and likely other things I'm not covering). 7. Computers should be password protected when you walk away from your computer. I guess the short version is: When in doubt, err on the side of making sure the information cannot be accessed by anyone who isn't using it to accomplish the purpose it is intended to serve. Also, you can't go flipping through covered info for funsies. Although you have authorized access, it's only authorized for a specific purpose.
- clort 7y ago
  > 6. You need an annual HIPAA training program to remind everyone of a lot of the above When you say 'need' do you mean 'legally required to' ? I wonder if that could work to the advantage of the poster, in that if they left because they became aware that things are not being done correctly and they have never had any such training, the legal responsibility would reflect back on the employers who had not provided such training to an obviously inexperienced employee and the CEO in particular who is the person who should have known to do that. I am not in the USA and I think the UK has slightly better employee protections and lines of legal responsibility, at least in some areas (such as Health & Safety) but who knows..
  - 7y ago
EdgarVerona 7y ago
I was sort of in a similar situation when I was your age - in over my head at a complex project where the owner had never heard of version control (though in my case, I was too green to realize that it even existed). They had 30 copies of the same software, one in a folder on a shared hard drive for each customer. If there was a bug and it wasn't specific to a customer, you had to go fix it in 30 different places. I promise you, if they don't want to provide version control they aren't going to provide you with other benefits and necessities that you deserve. Related questions to benefits and necessities: * Are you getting healthcare? * How is your pay compared to other Jr. software engineers in your area? * Are they paying you hourly? If so, are they actually paying you for hours worked, or are they finding ways to reduce that number of hours? * What if you demanded that they used version control, and brought your best arguments: what would they say? Consider the answers to those questions, and if you don't like the answers, I strongly urge you to leave. There's a complacency that can come with "settling" for a place that is a "known constant." Don't settle here, when you deserve more. Put what you've done on a resume, and give it to a headhunter. They will find you a better job - maybe not an ideal job, but a step up. And your career will truly begin.
Porthos9K 7y ago
Ghost this job immediately. It's a clusterfuck waiting to happen, and your bosses are going to leave you holding the bag when everything turns to shit. You're a programmer, not a fall guy. You aren't getting paid enough for this.
PaulRobinson 7y ago
Everything about this screams that you're being set up to fail, and given the circumstances "failure" might mean jail time. There are plenty of jobs out there. Go get one, _today_, please!
noir_lord 7y ago
Same boat, similar level of responsibility and I’ve been programming 20 odd years. I accepted an offer yesterday, 35% pay bump, 5 extra holiday days, twice the bonus cap and all of that pales against knowing I’ll never have to touch that fucking codebase under unrealistic constraints again in a short time. In stead I get to run a team, in a much bigger company with proper modern development practices. When they rang to tell me it was mine if wanted it I was literally shaking, it felt like an elephant had stepped of my chest. Until that point it really hadn’t occurred to me how unhappy the last two years at work have been, fighting the worst undocumented codebase I’ve seen two decades was a long slog, doing it alone for people who don’t understand the issues just made it worse. Will be putting my notice in next week. As someone 20 years older than you, get out and get out soon. You are damaging your future career chances by stagnating in a job that won’t teach you how to do things better for your future.
crististm 7y ago
My suggestion if you need one is to make a lateral movement and offload your problem to your CEO. Go hunt for another job.
shrikant 7y ago
> expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO [...] I read this and thought this could be because the CEO only thinks of version control as "GitHub", and is worried about putting sensitive information in the "cloud". Have you considered discussing this with your immediate superior? Not using any VC is a disaster waiting to happen...
- mihaaly 7y ago
  Probably they should stop using internet too, just in case, bad people lurk around there, they say.
mihaaly 7y ago
Giving a demanding task to a junior is usually how they improve and learn, but what you describe here is just a big pile of management incompetency. Escape.
jacquesm 7y ago
If they require that you don't use version control but at the same time want it to be HIPAA compliant you need to walk right now if you have options, ASAP if you don't. You're being set up to be blamed if anything goes wrong. Change management is part and parcel of anything in the medical software domain, and VC is an obvious part of that.
hluska 7y ago
Three things: 1. I’m impressed that you’ve made it this far. 2. This situation has ‘get the fuck out’ written all over it. It’s time to dust off your resume and get out of there. 3. I don’t think you’ll have any trouble. You seem like a good writer and I bet you’d be a good developer to work with. Best of luck bud. I wish I had a concrete way to help you.
archi42 7y ago
No offense, but starting to code professionally with only 15 years sounds... a bit strange? I mean, I started coding with 10 (~20 years ago), and the easily available tooling was much worse back then than it was 5 years ago, but if I was your CEO I wouldn't put anyone with that little expertise and (I suppose?) no formal training on such a project alone (it's something else if you're working with a senior dev from whom you can learn). And when I was your age, I wouldn't have done anything that might put me in jail if done wrong. Also, please pass this message from me to your CEO: He's an idiot for not letting you use version control. Leave asap.
Random_Person 7y ago
This all sounds so similar to my situation that it's scary... but I'm 40. Getting out is proving difficult because of age discrimination.
ufmace 7y ago
This smells like you are being set up to take the fall for something. Possibly something with really serious personal legal consequences. This is way, way worse than being underpaid or working for abusive jerks. No way it's worth it, I'd say quit now, even if your immediate alternative is working at Wal-Mart or something.
TeeWEE 7y ago
Seriously, leave now! While you can.
avgDev 7y ago
I know the feels but I'm a bit older. I am currently rewriting an old web forms app. Source code is outdated and not what is in production. Some methods are 1500+ lines of code. This project is dumpster fire but at least I can vent to everyone and they agree. Plus, I don't have to deal with HIPPA good luck brother!
knightofmars 7y ago
>I'm very junior, been coding for ~5 years, 3 professionally I agree with everyone else commenting here. This is a disaster waiting to happen. You are also limiting yourself by not working with people who will mentor you and show you the correct way to do things. You're experienced. You can find a new job. DO SO IMMEDIATELY. FIND A NEW JOB, NOW.

reificator 7y ago

> working on non-version-controlled code, having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO I've been there. Run.

rjplatte 7y ago
I'm studying hard, but learning new stuff while learning other new stuff is hard.
- reificator 7y ago
  Listen. If not using version control is a problem for you, you're already more hirable than a lot of developers I've seen. Learning is always important but don't use that to procrastinate. You don't have to go straight to the best job in the world. Just find something better (and do your homework to verify) and take it.
  - rjplatte 7y ago
    I'm in a small city, where not much work is available. I need to pad my resume a little more to make the work I do more attractive, but the reality is that LAMP devs aren't in high demand near me. I apply to several jobs daily, but not much is around. I'd appreciate pointers on how to improve my prospects, but the last place I interviewed was a seedy adult entertainment company, and I wouldn't have taken an offer if they begged, simply for personal reasons.
    - reificator 7y ago
      You said you're 18, you're young and hopefully don't have kids, so apply in other cities as well. Yeah it's scary. But if the job is good enough, and the pay is good enough, then you've got to figure out why your bullshit reason for staying where you are outweighs both your mental health and your career prospects. EDIT: And don't forget remote options.
      - shantly 7y ago
        God, at 18—or hell, at 22—showing the fuck up and not seeming entirely incompetent is a big deal. Show up, be engaged, do both consistently, and anyone who's not a total piece of crap will be all over giving you more responsibility and mentoring you up to bigger and better things. Total pieces of crap may still be interested, but it'll be in exploiting you (as in current situation). Oh, and ask questions. No one expects you to know diddly-squat, so ask away. Ask about stuff that's not part of your job description at all. People will tell you all kinds of stuff, and, incredibly, the whole exchange will make them like you more. Phenomenally small amounts of give-a-shit go a long way for youngsters. It's basically their superpower, if they're willing and able to use it.
    - eropple 7y ago
      I know a bunch of remote-hiring places and if nothing else I'd be happy to help you figure out what to learn (and, probably, how to approach it) to GTFO. Email is in my profile.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
- Sophistifunk 7y ago
  When this goes sideways, and it will, they will try to pin it on you. You need to GTFO.
- crististm 7y ago
  This is called rationalizing. Get out. Strategically, not on a whim. Hunt for another job.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
lacampbell 7y ago
I'm bewildered as to why a CEO would have any opinion on version control at all. Or why you'd ask a CEO whether you could use one. It's like a builder asking a construction company CEO if he can hold a hammer lower in his hand and that CEO forbidding it. Can someone explain?
- zdragnar 7y ago
  A good friend of mine worked for a small company whose CEO also tried hard to convince him that introducing version control was wrong. Of course, this same CEO also didn't see any problem with the fact that the password field in the login form was never checked against the database, because who would know someone else's login name?
  - lacampbell 7y ago
    Why is a CEO even getting involved in an issue on that low a level? Unless these are 'CEOs' of 3 people tech companies, I guess.
    - toomanybeersies 7y ago
      OP said they are the sole developer on their project, so it sounds like they are. Gotta love those companies where there are more board members than employees.
      - lacampbell 7y ago
        I'm not exactly at a fortune 500. I'm one of two developers at my company and it would be hilarious to me if my CEO (who seems like a nice enough guy) even knew what version control was. Then again, this isn't a tech company.
    - zdragnar 7y ago
      Small company, maybe a dozen people total, only tech-adjacent, not a strictly tech company. The CEO (which, for a company this size, probably also meant owner and perhaps sole board member) and maybe a fee other people at most had built the site in question.
rubyfan 7y ago
Also run for all the other stuff you said before that.

burnte 7y ago

> having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO You can run a local git repo, no code would ever leave your PC. I'd do taht, and damn the torpedoes. If he is dumb enough to say no versioning, he'll never know you run it locally.

thijsvandien 7y ago

What are the arguments against version control here (if any)? Honestly the project sounds quite interesting, but I can imagine the circumstances make it painful.

reificator 7y ago
> What's are the arguments against version control here (if any)? * I don't understand it * You're overcomplicating things * We're not using any of that free shit here * It doesn't say Microsoft or IBM * The last guy we hired that tried to use it was smarter than I was so anyone else who tries is a threat to my leadership. (because everyone knows you can only manage people who have a strict subset of your own knowledge. If one of your peons dared learn something before you, that would be the end of your reign.) the list goes on...
- ken 7y ago
  > It doesn't say Microsoft or IBM GitHub does, now, though I really hope that isn’t necessary for a company to adopt version control.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    And Visual Source Safe and TFS did previously.
- skellera 7y ago
  Why didn’t you just recommend Azure Repos? It’s a great product and fits what you need. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-au/services/devops/repos/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-au/services/devops/repos/
  - reificator 7y ago
    * Azure means cloud and cloud means no * It didn't exist at the time, but there was an on-prem that MS offered a few years back. It was forced on another department with no version control experience. It lasted about two weeks.

protomyth 7y ago

working on non-version-controlled code, having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO Did the CEO give a reason? I'm a bit curious based on it being billing and HIPPA. Also, are you rolling your own EDI import/export?

etxm 7y ago
HIPAA
- reificator 7y ago
  I don't work with HIPAA but with other compliance/regulations NOT using version control is the problem. Unless you have patient information hardcoded into the source code for god knows what reason...
  - marrone12 7y ago
    Things that might be hardcoded are access keys and passwords to PII databases.
    - rovr138 7y ago
      Which is bad practice for lots of reasons and, is that a HIPAA violation? Your code also has it then. Hosting git externally might be an issue though.
    - all_usernames 7y ago
      No. No no no no no.
- other_herbert 7y ago
  You're not storing patient details in VC...... Right? Maybe show him that you can run svn even on his own machine... Anything... Anything is better than not using something
- technomike 7y ago

lunaru 7y ago

I didn’t see any contact info on your profile but if you’re looking for a Rails gig, let’s chat. Ping me at my profile email.

shantly 7y ago
Seriously, the GP comment makes me wish I had a job to offer, not just due to sympathy but because any 18-year-old who is even sort of managing to tackle that problem and also knows that lack of VC is a serious red flag is probably worth an interview.

blotter_paper 7y ago

>having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO Well that's really fucking stupid of them. Maybe they're worried about evidence of old HIPAA breaches existing after the system gets updated, and doesn't want to explain that logic? On your local development station: mkdir repo cd repo git init --bare cd .. git clone repo project_folder cd project_folder cp -r ../<path_to_project>/project project Congratulations, you now have version control for local development that your CEO never has to know about! The only reason I'd suggest an extra folder (horribly named project_folder in the example above) is so that you never accidentally copy the hidden .git files when moving it from your dev station.

MichaelMoser123 7y ago
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/505467/can-i-store-the-git-folder-outside-the-files-i-want-tracked https://stackoverflow.com/questions/505467/can-i-store-the-g... you dont need to copy files, just tell git to store its data in another dir
- spookyuser 7y ago
  Wow thank you so much for this. There's some stuff I've been working on which I want to sync to Dropbox as I type but without the .git being synced too. Up until now I've just had to deal with the .git files being synced with Dropbox. But now it looks like I finally have a way of moving the repo!
  - dotancohen 7y ago
    If your bosses are concerned about Git, then they will likely have a fit over Dropbox. Get permission first, it is not worth your job.
    - mdaniel 7y ago
      it is not worth your job in a thread entitled "who wants to be fired"? This entire thread discussion is filled with it's not worth it, but towards the "no one should be forced to work like that" kind of way

house9-2 7y ago

> working on non-version-controlled code, having been expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO Version Control is a basic requirement of professional software development in this day and age. You could try explaining to your CEO it would be like telling a carpenter they can't use a hammer to build your new house. Or just take the initiative and use Version Control without telling them. In my mind it isn't something you need to ask permission for.

marrone12 7y ago
This is bad advice. If you accidentally leave personally identifiable healthcare information on some random stage server and that server gets hacked, that is a federal crime. If the data and application code are very intertwined (likely in a pre-SOA era), it can be very difficult to version control code completely isolated from PII.
- house9-2 7y ago
  > If you accidentally leave personally identifiable healthcare information on some random stage server and that server gets hacked, that is a federal crime. Not sure how that relates to Version Control? I personally don't put production (real) data on staging servers to begin with; always scrub your production clones or generate data for testing instances. > If the data and application code are very intertwined (likely in a pre-SOA era), it can be very difficult to version control code completely isolated from PII. Maybe I am naive (never had to work on DOS), but shouldn't the data be in a database/datastore/data directory that can be ignored by source control?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- wbl 7y ago
  Huh? Why would the code have medical data in it?
  - 7y ago

Chirael 7y ago

You may find this article helpful in some way: “How to Improve a Legacy Codebase” [0] [0] https://jacquesmattheij.com/improving-a-legacy-codebase https://jacquesmattheij.com/improving-a-legacy-codebase

syntheno 7y ago

Yo, git can be used locally. I highly recommend it.

ru999gol 7y ago
this whole story probably just boils down to people not understanding the difference between github and git.

bloopernova 7y ago

You do know that HIPAA violations can land you in jail, right? Run. Don't walk. Vacate immediately. Leave. I'm finding myself hoping that this is a fake, because I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone at all.

aussieguy1234 7y ago
This might be why the CEO doesn't want version control. It's extra evidence
- JanisL 7y ago
  Unfortunately wouldn't be the first time I've heard something like this :(
chaostheory 7y ago
Not just jail, you are also now personally liable. Meaning your personal assets are on the table for a lawsuit (at least according to Stanford’s HIPAA training)
hacknat 7y ago
You won’t go to jail if you do nothing wrong, but legal fees. Ugh, yeah, you’ll be in court as a witness and possibly defendant if you don’t leave ASAP.
- rovr138 7y ago
  Or if they have a better lawyer than yours.
  - hacknat 7y ago
    Well that would be the OCR. It’s doubtful they would waste a lot of resources going after a developer, unless they really thought he had done something. Usually they go after leadership.

whateveracct 7y ago

If you're that young (18??), you can almost definitely afford to quit tomorrow and look for something better. Never sacrifice your own career for your employer's success (within some time horizon.) Being willing to quit when your boss is a clear bad actor is a core part of this.

protomyth 7y ago
If you're that young (18??), you can almost definitely afford to quit tomorrow and look for something better. It very probably is the opposite. A lot of people who end up working at 18 are doing it because they need the money and their support network is poor.
- gravypod 7y ago
  Can confirm. Been working as a SWE full time and trying to finish my degree since 19. I would not take this pile of stress if I had a pile of money.
- whateveracct 7y ago
  That's a good point. If things will go to shit if you quit, by all means don't. But regardless look to secure a job before quitting.
- rconti 7y ago
  It's hard when you're young (no savings, car payment, whatever).. but it gets harder before it gets easier. This is a time in your life when you're (hopefully) not supporting anyone else, don't have a ton of possessions, don't have a mortgage, can couch-surf, eat ramen, etc.
  - rjplatte 7y ago
    Well, yeah, no. Family is leaving the country, S/O got kicked out, and I have a Great Pyrenees.
brucedawson 7y ago

iamsb 7y ago

You are 18 and been working professionally for 3 years. Well done. All said and done this is what matters. Real life experience over university education.

BalinKing 7y ago
One thing for GP to consider: I did the exact same thing (worked for three years in software development), but now I’m back at school in college. This obviously depends on if you think school is worth it (I did), but I wouldn’t be surprised if my work experience before college helped me stand out in the application process. Either way, good luck!

james_s_tayler 7y ago

Wow. Just wow. Run. There is no way this will end well. No version control = no way. You're junior in years, but 3 years working professionally makes you perhaps less junior than you think. It's right around the point it becomes easier to get other jobs.

systematical 7y ago

I worked for a "CTO" who didn't allow us to use version control either. This was from 2007-2010. I am surprised there is a company TODAY that does this, but I guess I shouldn't be. The reasoning behind not using VC was that it "caused more problems than it solved." His solution? Code directly on the production server. Yep. You heard me right. Let me say that one more time. Code directly on the production server. We eventually finally won a development server and wrote some bash scripts to deploy from there, but we never actually got SVN or anything. Imagine working on five person development team with no version control. The guy was a serious joke. The VC issue is just one of many. A serious despot. The guy was hated by all. We laughed at him. Why would I stick that out for three years? I had zero experience when hired. All of us were very green. We were all just putting in our time to hit that magic three years experience checkbox we needed for the next level gig. The CTO was more concerned with appearing to have a large department and having developers working on lots of different things, than actual quality. We wrote some pretty terrible code back in those days and we did a lot of it on a production server during business hours. We all left at or around the three-year mark. Month by month the "CTO" lost developers faster than he could replace them. The "CTO" was eventually fired and we laughed from afar. You are being taken advantage of like I was when I first started. You are cheap labor. Your CEO doesn't care about the product. Your CEO likely doesn't care about your career development. The sooner you leave, the more you will learn and grow. That was my experience.

rpmisms 7y ago
I'm the GP, on my work account. Yes. That is exactly what we do. It's horrifying.
- kabdib 7y ago
  The good news is that there are fantastically good shops to work for (you should start looking for one), and that you'll have some good stories to tell about the hellmouth that was your first company. But yeah, get the heck out of there.
JohnFen 7y ago
> Code directly on the production server. Yep. You heard me right. Let me say that one more time. Code directly on the production server. What a coincidence! We have a customer that is having a strange, hard-to-nail-down problem with our software. We asked if we could provide a diagnostic build to them that they could run in their test environment to gather additional information about what was happening. Their reply was that they didn't have a test environment. They just install any software they get directly to their production machines. Complete insanity.

throwaway010718 7y ago

Before quitting, try your best to make changes that will reduce stress and improve the project's manageablity with or without permission. Your work sounds so mission critical you could probably do whatever you want with no chance of getting fired. Just be able to justify your action and communicate your decisions clearly. You'll start earning respect and that alone will reduce your stress levels. Standing up for yourself is hard to do at any age and "learned helplessness" is a concern if you don't push yourself.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

I worked in insurance for over five years (at a Fortune 500 company). I had annual HIPAA training. I was in claims, so I'm not sure how pertinent this will be to your needs, but here is some stuff I remember: 1. HIPAA has a minimum necessary standard of disclosure, which means give only however much info you must give to accomplish the task in question. 2. You need at least three pieces of identifying info to positively ID an account, such as name, address and account number. (Other possibilities include: Social security number; date of birth; phone number.) 3. When disposing of papers or other media containing covered information, it must be destroyed, not merely thrown out. This means papers, floppy disks, etc must be shredded. 4. If you're printing a lot of papers with HIPAA covered info, you should have a locked trash can for any papers you are discarding. Presumably, this is merely a holding bin until it gets shredded. 5. Papers with pertinent info should be turned face down if anyone comes to your cubicle to talk, even a coworker. Ditto for papers coming off the printer containing covered info. 6. You need an annual HIPAA training program to remind everyone of a lot of the above (and likely other things I'm not covering). 7. Computers should be password protected when you walk away from your computer. I guess the short version is: When in doubt, err on the side of making sure the information cannot be accessed by anyone who isn't using it to accomplish the purpose it is intended to serve. Also, you can't go flipping through covered info for funsies. Although you have authorized access, it's only authorized for a specific purpose.

clort 7y ago
> 6. You need an annual HIPAA training program to remind everyone of a lot of the above When you say 'need' do you mean 'legally required to' ? I wonder if that could work to the advantage of the poster, in that if they left because they became aware that things are not being done correctly and they have never had any such training, the legal responsibility would reflect back on the employers who had not provided such training to an obviously inexperienced employee and the CEO in particular who is the person who should have known to do that. I am not in the USA and I think the UK has slightly better employee protections and lines of legal responsibility, at least in some areas (such as Health & Safety) but who knows..
- 7y ago

EdgarVerona 7y ago

I was sort of in a similar situation when I was your age - in over my head at a complex project where the owner had never heard of version control (though in my case, I was too green to realize that it even existed). They had 30 copies of the same software, one in a folder on a shared hard drive for each customer. If there was a bug and it wasn't specific to a customer, you had to go fix it in 30 different places. I promise you, if they don't want to provide version control they aren't going to provide you with other benefits and necessities that you deserve. Related questions to benefits and necessities: * Are you getting healthcare? * How is your pay compared to other Jr. software engineers in your area? * Are they paying you hourly? If so, are they actually paying you for hours worked, or are they finding ways to reduce that number of hours? * What if you demanded that they used version control, and brought your best arguments: what would they say? Consider the answers to those questions, and if you don't like the answers, I strongly urge you to leave. There's a complacency that can come with "settling" for a place that is a "known constant." Don't settle here, when you deserve more. Put what you've done on a resume, and give it to a headhunter. They will find you a better job - maybe not an ideal job, but a step up. And your career will truly begin.

Porthos9K 7y ago

Ghost this job immediately. It's a clusterfuck waiting to happen, and your bosses are going to leave you holding the bag when everything turns to shit. You're a programmer, not a fall guy. You aren't getting paid enough for this.

PaulRobinson 7y ago

Everything about this screams that you're being set up to fail, and given the circumstances "failure" might mean jail time. There are plenty of jobs out there. Go get one, _today_, please!

noir_lord 7y ago

Same boat, similar level of responsibility and I’ve been programming 20 odd years. I accepted an offer yesterday, 35% pay bump, 5 extra holiday days, twice the bonus cap and all of that pales against knowing I’ll never have to touch that fucking codebase under unrealistic constraints again in a short time. In stead I get to run a team, in a much bigger company with proper modern development practices. When they rang to tell me it was mine if wanted it I was literally shaking, it felt like an elephant had stepped of my chest. Until that point it really hadn’t occurred to me how unhappy the last two years at work have been, fighting the worst undocumented codebase I’ve seen two decades was a long slog, doing it alone for people who don’t understand the issues just made it worse. Will be putting my notice in next week. As someone 20 years older than you, get out and get out soon. You are damaging your future career chances by stagnating in a job that won’t teach you how to do things better for your future.

crististm 7y ago

My suggestion if you need one is to make a lateral movement and offload your problem to your CEO. Go hunt for another job.

shrikant 7y ago

> expressly forbidden from using ANY VC by the CEO [...] I read this and thought this could be because the CEO only thinks of version control as "GitHub", and is worried about putting sensitive information in the "cloud". Have you considered discussing this with your immediate superior? Not using any VC is a disaster waiting to happen...

mihaaly 7y ago
Probably they should stop using internet too, just in case, bad people lurk around there, they say.

mihaaly 7y ago

Giving a demanding task to a junior is usually how they improve and learn, but what you describe here is just a big pile of management incompetency. Escape.

jacquesm 7y ago

If they require that you don't use version control but at the same time want it to be HIPAA compliant you need to walk right now if you have options, ASAP if you don't. You're being set up to be blamed if anything goes wrong. Change management is part and parcel of anything in the medical software domain, and VC is an obvious part of that.

hluska 7y ago

Three things: 1. I’m impressed that you’ve made it this far. 2. This situation has ‘get the fuck out’ written all over it. It’s time to dust off your resume and get out of there. 3. I don’t think you’ll have any trouble. You seem like a good writer and I bet you’d be a good developer to work with. Best of luck bud. I wish I had a concrete way to help you.

archi42 7y ago

No offense, but starting to code professionally with only 15 years sounds... a bit strange? I mean, I started coding with 10 (~20 years ago), and the easily available tooling was much worse back then than it was 5 years ago, but if I was your CEO I wouldn't put anyone with that little expertise and (I suppose?) no formal training on such a project alone (it's something else if you're working with a senior dev from whom you can learn). And when I was your age, I wouldn't have done anything that might put me in jail if done wrong. Also, please pass this message from me to your CEO: He's an idiot for not letting you use version control. Leave asap.

Random_Person 7y ago

This all sounds so similar to my situation that it's scary... but I'm 40. Getting out is proving difficult because of age discrimination.

ufmace 7y ago

This smells like you are being set up to take the fall for something. Possibly something with really serious personal legal consequences. This is way, way worse than being underpaid or working for abusive jerks. No way it's worth it, I'd say quit now, even if your immediate alternative is working at Wal-Mart or something.

TeeWEE 7y ago

Seriously, leave now! While you can.

avgDev 7y ago

I know the feels but I'm a bit older. I am currently rewriting an old web forms app. Source code is outdated and not what is in production. Some methods are 1500+ lines of code. This project is dumpster fire but at least I can vent to everyone and they agree. Plus, I don't have to deal with HIPPA good luck brother!

knightofmars 7y ago

>I'm very junior, been coding for ~5 years, 3 professionally I agree with everyone else commenting here. This is a disaster waiting to happen. You are also limiting yourself by not working with people who will mentor you and show you the correct way to do things. You're experienced. You can find a new job. DO SO IMMEDIATELY. FIND A NEW JOB, NOW.