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Right or wrong, a large function of the prison system is to ruin someone's life in a sufficiently public way for performing actions outside of the given society

Right or wrong, a large function of the prison system is to ruin someone's life in a sufficiently public way for performing actions outside of the given society's norms and values to serve as a deterrent to those who would follow in their footsteps.

megadopechos 7y ago
How does one preform actions? Also, you mention societies: how many and which societies are you referring to?
- mfoy_ 7y ago
  "How does one preform actions?" Is this some epistemological Zeno's paradox type incredulity?
  - YaxelPerez 7y ago
    I think he's hung up on the misspelling of "perform"
- flmontpetit 7y ago
  It feels like you're trying to argue for the sake of it
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
magashna 7y ago
Except that has never proven to reduce recidivism, and in the US seems to increase it. The Swedes seem to have much better luck with education, training, and rehabilitative options.
- RealityVoid 7y ago
  Op mentioned nothing about recidivism or it's usefulness to the prisoner. That's just about irrelevant if the intended desired effect is deterrence.
  - magashna 7y ago
    Apologies. Punishment is not a deterrent.
    - rbut 7y ago
      And you are wiser than anyone in authority that has walked before you? (eg. parents, law makers, authorities, teachers, etc). Punishment is a deterrent and has been proven so for millennia.
      - magashna 7y ago
        I never claimed to be wiser, though there is evidence that agrees. At least in the US, murder rates are consistently higher in states with the death penalty. https://web.archive.org/web/20140330143555/http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence?id=1101085 https://web.archive.org/web/20140330143555/http://www.amnest...
        joshuamorton 7y ago
        While I generally agree with your broader point, I doubt this relationship is causal.
        sokoloff 7y ago
        Agreed. It's entirely possible that high murder rates drive support for the death penalty, for example.
        schaefer 7y ago
        magashna: Punishment is not a deterrent. rbut: Punishment is a deterrent and has been proven ... magashna:murder rates are consistently higher in states with the death penalty. joshuamorton: I doubt this relationship is causal. Magashna is clearly not arguing causality, but rather that the death penalty has failed to be a deterrent to murder.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  recidivism and deterrence in general are not the same thing. high recidivism does not mean that people who haven't been imprisoned yet aren't deterred from committing crimes.
  - DataWorker 7y ago
    What about an ever increasing rate of criminality? If more and more people are competing crimes then doesn’t that suggest the deterrent effect is minimal, more importantly insufficient. And if the deterrent effect is insufficient then shouldn’t we try to find a better way by making use of modern science and data driven decision making?
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      > If more and more people are competing crimes then doesn’t that suggest the deterrent effect is minimal, more importantly insufficient. is this actually true? as I understand it, we are well past the peak of criminal activity ( at least in the US).
      - DataWorker 7y ago
        The incarceration rate has declined in the past decade but I would guess that’s due to already having locked up a large proportion of the population as well as changes enforcement and prosecution. Weed is legal now, to take an obvious example of prosecutorial waste that’s been ameliorated.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      > If more and more people are competing crimes then doesn’t that suggest the deterrent effect is minimal It's a multi-variable system. It could be that other conditions and effects override what is, in other circumstances, a solid deterrent. Threat of long imprisonment works great on the guy who doesn't want to lose his cushy job and easy life. It doesn't work as well on someone with nothing and no hope of gaining anything. Saying it doesn't serve as a deterrent for a certain class of individual is a fair statement, saying it doesn't work, full-stop is most certainly wrong.
- zamalek 7y ago
  You are arguing reformation vs. restitution. Most countries (and their electorate) would rather have restitution, not because restitution is a better solution, but because vengeance has been the gold standard of justice for millennia. It's a self-perpetuating zeitgeist. The irony is that these systems do not achieve restitution. The victims may experience righteous indignation, but that will soon fade away. Meanwhile the perpetrators gets to spend a few years among their peers in crime university. > The Swedes That is a reformative incarceration system.
- austincheney 7y ago
  In the US there should be separate prisons for first-time offenders versus offenders who have previous convictions.
- viklove 7y ago
  This article is about China...
- siruncledrew 7y ago
  This is in China, not the US. Different system.
everlastingfan 7y ago
If exile was seen as ruinous enough in the public eye, that could provide a humane alternative to imprisonment. Racist sentimemts could be exploited for this in a very humorous way. Imagine hackers being exiled to Mexico, and being let in on the precondition that they spend the first X years working on improving Mexico's public infrastructure.
- really3452 7y ago
  Yes, traditionally official exile to another continent was considered sufficient. However, eventually the United States, and later Australia, started refusing exile shipments. I suspect that Mexico would refuse exile shipments.
  - everlastingfan 7y ago
    Prisons are pretty expensive, couldn't Mexico be paid to house exiles? I doubt they couldn't handle a few people with violent tendencies if paid the right price.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  > Imagine hackers being exiled to Mexico, and being let in on the precondition that they spend the first X years working on improving Mexico's public infrastructure. I think people would even volunteer to do that for free if the willingness was there, but it isn't really.
WhompingWindows 7y ago
It's intended* function is to act as a deterrent. The jury is still out on whether it actually functions effectively as a deterrent. For instance, do active criminals know the potential punishments for their transgressions? Do they know what life is like for current or former prisoners? If yes to either, does it actually deter active criminals or do they just consider it a risk, a cost of doing their "business? Deterrence is a nice in theory, but it depends on awareness among the general populace, and depending on people being aware is not a good start to any policy.

megadopechos 7y ago

How does one preform actions? Also, you mention societies: how many and which societies are you referring to?

mfoy_ 7y ago
"How does one preform actions?" Is this some epistemological Zeno's paradox type incredulity?
- YaxelPerez 7y ago
  I think he's hung up on the misspelling of "perform"
flmontpetit 7y ago
It feels like you're trying to argue for the sake of it
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

magashna 7y ago

Except that has never proven to reduce recidivism, and in the US seems to increase it. The Swedes seem to have much better luck with education, training, and rehabilitative options.

RealityVoid 7y ago
Op mentioned nothing about recidivism or it's usefulness to the prisoner. That's just about irrelevant if the intended desired effect is deterrence.
- magashna 7y ago
  Apologies. Punishment is not a deterrent.
  - rbut 7y ago
    And you are wiser than anyone in authority that has walked before you? (eg. parents, law makers, authorities, teachers, etc). Punishment is a deterrent and has been proven so for millennia.
    - magashna 7y ago
      I never claimed to be wiser, though there is evidence that agrees. At least in the US, murder rates are consistently higher in states with the death penalty. https://web.archive.org/web/20140330143555/http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence?id=1101085 https://web.archive.org/web/20140330143555/http://www.amnest...
      - joshuamorton 7y ago
        While I generally agree with your broader point, I doubt this relationship is causal.
        sokoloff 7y ago
        Agreed. It's entirely possible that high murder rates drive support for the death penalty, for example.
        schaefer 7y ago
        magashna: Punishment is not a deterrent. rbut: Punishment is a deterrent and has been proven ... magashna:murder rates are consistently higher in states with the death penalty. joshuamorton: I doubt this relationship is causal. Magashna is clearly not arguing causality, but rather that the death penalty has failed to be a deterrent to murder.
leetcrew 7y ago
recidivism and deterrence in general are not the same thing. high recidivism does not mean that people who haven't been imprisoned yet aren't deterred from committing crimes.
- DataWorker 7y ago
  What about an ever increasing rate of criminality? If more and more people are competing crimes then doesn’t that suggest the deterrent effect is minimal, more importantly insufficient. And if the deterrent effect is insufficient then shouldn’t we try to find a better way by making use of modern science and data driven decision making?
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > If more and more people are competing crimes then doesn’t that suggest the deterrent effect is minimal, more importantly insufficient. is this actually true? as I understand it, we are well past the peak of criminal activity ( at least in the US).
    - DataWorker 7y ago
      The incarceration rate has declined in the past decade but I would guess that’s due to already having locked up a large proportion of the population as well as changes enforcement and prosecution. Weed is legal now, to take an obvious example of prosecutorial waste that’s been ameliorated.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > If more and more people are competing crimes then doesn’t that suggest the deterrent effect is minimal It's a multi-variable system. It could be that other conditions and effects override what is, in other circumstances, a solid deterrent. Threat of long imprisonment works great on the guy who doesn't want to lose his cushy job and easy life. It doesn't work as well on someone with nothing and no hope of gaining anything. Saying it doesn't serve as a deterrent for a certain class of individual is a fair statement, saying it doesn't work, full-stop is most certainly wrong.
zamalek 7y ago
You are arguing reformation vs. restitution. Most countries (and their electorate) would rather have restitution, not because restitution is a better solution, but because vengeance has been the gold standard of justice for millennia. It's a self-perpetuating zeitgeist. The irony is that these systems do not achieve restitution. The victims may experience righteous indignation, but that will soon fade away. Meanwhile the perpetrators gets to spend a few years among their peers in crime university. > The Swedes That is a reformative incarceration system.
austincheney 7y ago
In the US there should be separate prisons for first-time offenders versus offenders who have previous convictions.
viklove 7y ago
This article is about China...
siruncledrew 7y ago
This is in China, not the US. Different system.

everlastingfan 7y ago

If exile was seen as ruinous enough in the public eye, that could provide a humane alternative to imprisonment. Racist sentimemts could be exploited for this in a very humorous way. Imagine hackers being exiled to Mexico, and being let in on the precondition that they spend the first X years working on improving Mexico's public infrastructure.

really3452 7y ago
Yes, traditionally official exile to another continent was considered sufficient. However, eventually the United States, and later Australia, started refusing exile shipments. I suspect that Mexico would refuse exile shipments.
- everlastingfan 7y ago
  Prisons are pretty expensive, couldn't Mexico be paid to house exiles? I doubt they couldn't handle a few people with violent tendencies if paid the right price.
cameronbrown 7y ago
> Imagine hackers being exiled to Mexico, and being let in on the precondition that they spend the first X years working on improving Mexico's public infrastructure. I think people would even volunteer to do that for free if the willingness was there, but it isn't really.

WhompingWindows 7y ago

It's intended* function is to act as a deterrent. The jury is still out on whether it actually functions effectively as a deterrent. For instance, do active criminals know the potential punishments for their transgressions? Do they know what life is like for current or former prisoners? If yes to either, does it actually deter active criminals or do they just consider it a risk, a cost of doing their "business? Deterrence is a nice in theory, but it depends on awareness among the general populace, and depending on people being aware is not a good start to any policy.