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How to Make Billions of Dollars Reducing Loneliness

212 points by astrofinch 7y ago

analognoise 7y ago
Well now we know what the childless 25-year old programmer demographic thinks.
JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
Started out great and then started talking about roommates and became an advertisement for the roommate matching service. I don’t think that is the answer to loneliness.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  For me it was the solution to loneliness. I was never so happy as I am now with roommates. I used to think I prefer to live alone, not really anymore. Of course that is anecdote, but IMHO it helps some groups of people.
shadowmore 7y ago
"Without the framework of a uniting religion, ethnicity, or purpose, it's hard to get people to truly commit to a given community." Points out that multiculturalism is destroying our civilization. Then goes on to brainstorm completely irrelevant solutions, as if the idea of simply restoring proper homogeneity is just forbidden by a higher power.
- caser 7y ago
  You can have uniting religion, ethnicity, or purpose and still have multiculturalism. You just have people deeply engaged with separate communities. The real problem he’s talking about is disaffiliation —- people not feeling connected to any overarching group to which they experience a sense of belonging.
- strikelaserclaw 7y ago
  Loneliness seems to be a common thread even in homogenous first world countries like Japan. I think the modern way of people moving all the world for economic opportunity, and the much greater emphasis on "work" probably contributes far more to loneliness than multiculturalism.
  - spookybones 7y ago
    I completely agree.
  - freddie_mercury 7y ago
    Like all problems in the real world, I doubt there is a single, simple explanation like that. Other factors that I imagine contribute: the rise of social programs (e.g. Social Security) mean that families aren't responsible for elder care anymore. Young people are encouraged to leave the house asap after graduating high school. Failure to do so is seen to reflect poorly on the person and their parents. Even among middle and low income earners, sharing households is less common in the past. The rise of extreme parenting and related reduction in parental friendships. The housing wealth of previous generations allowing them to sell a house in Boston and relocate to Phoenix, putting grandparents thousands of miles away from their children. The rise of both spouses working meaning the non-working spouse can't lean on the social networks of the stay at home spouse. Widespread air conditioning leading to death of outdoor neighborhood life (e.g. sitting on the porch) The rise of college education and the increase in going to school further from home. (As recently as the 1970s over 55% of Stanford's students came from California.) Those are just a few off the top of my head. I don't disagree that moving for work plays a role but back in the 1930s lots of people moved around the US for work (more than today) and work was far more all consuming (having only 2 days off the entire year was not uncommon, e.g. working every weekend, no breaks). And loneliness appears to have been less prevalent then than now.
- spookybones 7y ago
  If you’re really committed to proper homogeneity, you should avoid the English language.
caser 7y ago
In a city like NYC, the only people you really see regularly are the people you live with, the people you work with, and the people you sleep with. Finding good roommates is definitely one way to solve the problem, but if you’re not knee deep in a community with a strong sense of values and culture (like EA), finding matches can be challenging. Also, as someone who has been in and around this space, several of the coliving companies you mentioned are not doing well financially. Especially in NYC, all of the coliving spots (some of which have raised significant capital) have almost all their inventory in deep Brooklyn or Queens. It’s nearly impossible to find a good share in the city unless you stumble into it or create it with friends, which depends on having a wide network of people who have leases ending around the same time (or who are willing to break leases). Also, much of the good housing inventory is either taken or overpriced, so part of this also depends on either having wealthy friends or finding a way to finagle a deal on a place before it hits the market. Last thing I’ll say is that one of the reasons why people only see roommates, coworkers, and partners regularly is because of lack of religious / school affiliation. It’s hard to get people to commit to something weekly, but if you can do it, it’s way easier to spin up than coordinating a group house. The past few months I’ve been doing a weekly Monday breakfast with 2 friends —- it’s quickly become the highlight of all of our weeks. Other than, I think the best choice is to find (or create) something that you’re willing to commit to at least 1x per week. Finding a spiritual institution (even an agnostic friendly one like humanist society or Unitarian church), picking up a martial art, or auditing a course at a local grad school (this is my recent fav) are all ways you can find more depth in city life. +1 for the idea of community porn, though. 1-off events just aren’t the same.
- grogenaut 7y ago
  You mention but don't list in your bullet points the 4th: hobbies... Which is charities, church, or any other shared interest group. Makerspaces, book clubs, matial arts, literally everything you have to do with others.
- strikelaserclaw 7y ago
  Probably goes with the culture of flakiness that having too much choice gives. First time someone goes to an event, they don't immediately feel the spark or whatever, off to do other things.
spookybones 7y ago
A simple solution would seem to be an OKCupid clone that is strictly for friends and perhaps another for roommates. It is very good at aligning mutual interests and proximity and giving a sense of personalities. I see a large untapped market for older people as well. Unlike RL, you know going in that anyone on there is looking for companionship, which considerably reduces awkwardness.
- donretag 7y ago
  Bumble has a BFF feature.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    OKC itself lets you say you're only looking for friends. Whether that discourages creeps is anyone's guess.
    - spookybones 7y ago
      Yeah, I think the problem is that it’s clearly not the real purpose of the app. Even users seeking friends are sometimes seeking people who they may eventually date once they recover from a breakup.
    - Mountain_Skies 7y ago
      I've tried that. Turned out that most people took it as code for "friends with benefits" with heavy emphasis on the benefits and very little on the friends part. Which is ok for those who have that as their goal but a bit confusing for those who haven't figured out the code yet.
    - starpilot 7y ago
      This is a hard sell when the site is called OkCupid.
- rzzzt 7y ago
  The age old tale goes that FriendFinder was intended to be such a website, before gaining the prefix.
geargrinder 7y ago
John Vervaeke - Awakening from the Meaning Crisis https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrS...
- javert 7y ago
  It would be helpful to actually give a short explanation of what you are linking to, rather than a bare link with the title.
  - igammarays 7y ago
    The Meaning Crisis is John Vervaeke’s term for the Western breakdown in religion, community, family, and ultimately a “meaningful life”, which he traces back to various uniquely Western historical factors. It’s not just an analysis, however, as he makes a heroic attempt to reassemble what was lost with religion, without religion. Really profound lecture series. Opens your eyes to what we’ve actually lost in the modern world.
    - javert 7y ago
      Are you saying he presents a new theory somewhere around item 27 or 28 in the playlist? Because prior to that it looks like a survey of Western philosophy, just judging by the titles of the videos.
dagnysdildo 7y ago
If you're lonely, adopt a dog from your local animal shelter. A cat is fine, too.
- rini17 7y ago
  Excuse me, this is bad advice. If someone is lonely they will have problem to find anyone who can take care of the pet when they can't (such as when they are away).
  - starpilot 7y ago
    There are pet sitters and pet boarding services in most cities.
    - rini17 7y ago
      Which must be usually booked in advance. Really, pet care can't be handwaved off and downvoted.
      - starpilot 7y ago
        Lonely people can still plan their lives and act as adults. I'm one of them, a cat sitter is watching my cat right now. In any case, usually having your friends pet sit has to be discussed in advance as well. You have to hand over the house key etc.
- slang800 7y ago
  Pets are not a replacement for human interaction.
  - claudiawerner 7y ago
    Not that I totally agree with GP, but they can certainly help with a lack of human interaction, even if they don't solve the issue.
  - starpilot 7y ago
dahdum 7y ago
Roam.co is essentially out of business, but having spent several weeks in their Tokyo property it was a great experience. Always someone around to chat or eat with. Tokyo has a large number of Sharehouses built and managed by the full stack businesses the author mentions (along with smaller co-op styles). Roam Tokyo rented a floor of a sharehouse building which had regular tenants, coworking space, conference rooms, and a large commercial style kitchen. The model definitely works well enough in Japan, including many with a mix of natives and expats.
- brunooo 7y ago
  Hey, Roam founder here - we’re actually just switching our business model from fake tech company to a more equitable real-estate approach and thus phasing out unsustainable leases. More on that more publicly in about 1-2 months. Thanks for living with us in Tokyo and the kind words tough!
  - dahdum 7y ago
    Hi Bruno, I wish you the best. I’m going back to Japan for a couple months this winter and going to miss the Roam experience so much. Most sharehouses don’t do 2-3 months. Both the community managers were fantastic. Looking forward to see your new business model!
    - brunooo 7y ago
      Thank you, truly appreciated. Both Marika, and I assume Krystal, are incredible humans. The WhatsApp group is still going strong, so at least there’s an informal Roam for the time being - Marika is working on a coworking space at the moment, so there should be a home no matter where you end up this winter. And yes, looking forward as well, thanks again!
- astrofinch 7y ago
  What issues did Roam.co run into?
  - 7y ago
mcguire 7y ago
"...especially in the Bay Area. ... But there's a palpable lack of social fabric. I worry that this atomization is becoming a world-wide phenomenon – that we might be some of the first generations without the sort of community that it's in human nature to rely on." Are we talking about a general problem, or about a group of 20-somethings who grew up with families, went to college where they had a lot of free time with a bunch of others in the same situation, and then moved hundreds or thousands of miles to a place that puts emphasis on lack of ties, short terms, mobility, and long work hours? 'Cause I can assure you that most of the lonely people in the world can't afford $100 per month for a friend network.
- watwut 7y ago
  This was downvoted a lot, but I think there is something on it. The same value system that makes you see life outside of work as being lazy, prefers short term relationships and generally praise following own interests has higher chance of leaving you without close friends and community in the long term. and it is also true that lonely poor or sick people or those caring about such relatives can be extremely lonely and isolated too, but with harder or non existent solutions.
- sjg007 7y ago
  The most lonely are old people I think.. but the ones that live in senior housing tend to do a lot better. Kids in college also do well since they are among their peers.. One idea to push this forward is mixed use housing. Parents want to find other parents so their kids can play. Teenagers likewise. So you need all ages in your little "village".
  - bhl 7y ago
    Kids in college are also lonely; I go to a school with a relatively large undergraduate populations. The result is that many people have trouble finding friends given that interactions are less frequent. Dorms and free time do help, but in the first week there were a lot of posts asking others on how they made their friends.
jrumbut 7y ago
Something that goes unquestioned in this article is that you want to live with people who are like you down to the same taste in video games. I find this not to be true for me, and that I find it easiest to live with people that are different enough that you end up needing to use kindness to relate to each other. After having felt isolated in my previous living situations, I'm now in a complex where we all hang out in the parking lot most afternoons. I'm a software engineer, my neighbors include bus drivers, clerks, landscapers, those who have no visible means of support, etc. It's a nice relaxed environment, which I don't experience when people who are too similar are around. This is a problem with a lot of matching systems, sometimes similarity isn't desirable.
- SaltyBackendGuy 7y ago
  > people that are different enough that you end up needing to use kindness to relate to each other I've never heard it put quite this way before, and it's so true. Thanks for this.
- opportune 7y ago
  Personality, while much harder to measure than interests, is a much better way to determine if people can be friends. And “interests”, unless you take them very seriously like being an amateur golfer or musician or something, are quite ephemeral; I tend to share interests with friends because we became friends first and then both got into new hobbies together, not vice versa.
- icebraining 7y ago
  I don't think the article is saying that everyone must match to that level of specifiety, or that your preferences must match your own characteristics. I'm sure some people would try to find people just like them, but you could just list your "must haves", or even exclude people like you. A good example is OKC (the dating site), which asks you a bunch of questions, and then lets you choose one or more "acceptable" answers, and how strongly you feel about that. You can choose to accept all answers for most questions, or to say the other person must answer exactly one way, it's up to the user.
  - 7y ago
therealmarv 7y ago
It's not about roommates alone. Many people like myself don't want to share space but enjoy going to a local coworking and having a community there with people who do stuff also outside work. I've found some real friends there.
dglass 7y ago
For remote workers in the Bay Area that deal with the added loneliness of working from home, Out Of Office[0] hosts weekly popup coworking sessions at different locations around San Francisco. It's a great way to get out of the house and meet other people while getting your work done. [0] https://outofoffice.app/workclub https://outofoffice.app/workclub
alexashka 7y ago
This is a way to scratch your left foot when your right foot itches. The way to alleviate loneliness, is to do meaningful work. Meaningful work will inevitably involve other people. It's not loneliness so much as being so fucking bored, because everything that took up your time in the past centuries, has now been automated, and you're sent to prison for 10+ years to break your spirit as early as 3 years old. You send children to school where they have no autonomy, have to sit quietly and memorize stupid bullshit through their entire childhood, and then wonder why they go nuts in all kinds of unpredictable ways. We're not meant to do stupid bullshit we see no value in doing our entire lives. What's a roommate gonna do to alleviate that? Just skip roommate, try heroin to forget this shit existence and plunge into a world of bliss.
- majewsky 7y ago
  Like so many comments on the internet, this would've been great if you had stopped one sentence earlier.
- CryptoPunk 7y ago
  >>We're not meant to do stupid bullshit we see no value in doing our entire lives. Then stop doing meaningless things. We're all part of a grand story, and we can play our part to move it forward. When you find a meaningful purpose, then you'll be able to tolerate the years of trudging forward that it can take achieve goals. Nothing is more meaningless than abandoning your role in the world with chemical distractions.
lifeisstillgood 7y ago
In my twenties I tried (a couple of times but not really tried) to live in communes / large houses of more than 12 people It worked ok ish most of the time but I honestly think it is a significant part of the answer - as cities become more crowded just chucking people together to work it out has many positive benefits - child care sharing is easier at some life stages, meeting others, community activism and so on all seemed to flow naturally. Along with Barcelona style super-blocks I would recommend communes / high density households as a good option
- jborichevskiy 7y ago
  Out of curiosity what made it ok-ish? What were the biggest pain points? I've been tempted to try it myself.
  - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
    Housing costs - it's expensive finding that big a location and weirdly there is a sort of flip point (in London) where more people stopped reducing the delta cost per person if that makes sense moving from "just house mates" to "we need some rules as a community" starts all sorts of "oh I don't know if I really want to think of it this way" - and the sort of people who really want to be in a commune with rules turn out to be the sort of people you would not want to have ... earnest and unemployed (see housing cost) I think "house mates" is a good level to live at - probably for most life stages to be honest. And we could easily redefine a village (cluster of cave dwellings / Skara Brae / babylonian houses) to be the same house - it was for many ages for many parts of the world one thing we could call a structure
    - jborichevskiy 7y ago
      Makes sense, thanks for elaborating. Agreed on the housemates level- living with roommates I am also good friends with seems to have been my best living arrangement so far.
petercooper 7y ago
I'm only slightly facetious here, but Twitch and the video gaming industry are already making billions reducing loneliness.. :-)
- izzydata 7y ago
  I'd like to suggest that they are making it worse. We used to play games together on the couch, but now we can be alone in our houses watching strangers instead. Social media in general is making us all more lonely while tricking us into thinking we are interacting with others.
  - odessacubbage 7y ago
    what's the last non-fighting game that even had couch co op? >Social media in general is making us all more lonely while tricking us into thinking we are interacting with others. it really feels like maybe we were too successful in solving boredom. why would anyone strike up a conversation at the bus stop anymore when they have instant access to their ingroup and their preferred dopamine drip? the age old wisdom of 'just go ahead, you're not bothering them' is essentially meaningless now. i have apps for networking and finding clients, i have apps for hookups and maybe even relationships, but where do i go just to make a friend who doesn't want sex or business?
    - thesorrow 7y ago
      Apps want to do too much. Maybe we need apps that let us do our part as human. I don't want to have every match possible presented to me but I'd love to have a notification saying "5 friends down your street are actually going out and are okay to include some new people. One of them loves 80's synth music just like you". After that you decide but you'll have the opportunity to get true IRL interactions...
- furi 7y ago
  I think Twitch would occupy the same category of "band-aid" services described in the article. It's a commercial simulation of hanging out with friends but scaled up so one person can provide the experience of a friend for a few hundred or thousands and the price scaled down to match ($0 for most participants, with some people paying for emojis or whatever it is spending money on Twitch gets you).
kart23 7y ago
Adult fraternities. More commonly known as secret societies or just clubs. Theres already a few of them, but I believe it's pretty uncommon to be in one. Make em so they can choose who to accept as well, something at least slightly exclusive is better for everyone in the end. It can really take any form, a clubhouse, house where some people live and others just come to hang out, etc. But what's really important is a space that a smaller group of people feel comfortable in, responsible for, and feel a strong connection to the other people in the group.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  Universal inclusion has risen to the level of religion. You can't join such a club because if your membership is discovered, your employer will be pressured to fire you regardless of how mundane the club.
  - kaitai 7y ago
    I don't think this is true. The sibling comment is about Freemasons, but you can join Toastmasters, the Rotary Club, and any number of other social & community groups with no negative consequences (and even positive ones!). What are you thinking about when you make this statement?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- hokumguru 7y ago
  On an anecdotal note I joined my local Freemasonry lodge a year ago and while it’s definitely not universally inclusive I definitely find extreme value in the connections I’m forming. Freemasonry in general is dying - it had a large spike in membership after WWII and Vietnam as soldiers found connections and brotherly love abroad (in the lodges all enlisted men were equals regardless of ranking) but in the decades since, convincing young men to join the brotherhood is difficult. I’m in my mid 20s and I’m the youngest member by 20 years Edit: I should clarify that FM isn’t as secret-society as the media makes it out to be. It’s a great social club to meet a wide variety of other people over dinners and outings with a strict ban on all talk of politics or religion (an extremely welcome escape in today’s climate)
hackbinary 7y ago
Start dancing. I started swing and jazz dancing a couple of years ago. The community is awesome, and you get to meet loads of people. There are regular events all over the world.
ScottFree 7y ago
Adult sport leagues. These are very common in Europe, but are fairly rare in the US.
paulpauper 7y ago
It seems like there is an obsession with loneliness as of late. I keep seeing articles on the front page that talk about it. I guess it's a big problem now.
Arete314159 7y ago
A good roommate situation can be fine, but a bad one can be terrible. We've got to have other options. Current internet connection tools encourage you to stay on your screen. You could easily design a system that nudges folks to actually get together in real time. Let's say you've been chatting via messenger for 10 minutes. Then you get a popup that says, "{name} is actually only x blocks away -- why don't you continue this over coffee?" Meanwhile, a real-time idea could be apartments or houses with shared common areas. I miss the common rooms of college where you just happen to run into people. We could do that again as adults without the 9-act dramatic operas that happen when you share too much living space with folks. There's such thing as a happy medium.
- acidburnNSA 7y ago
  Yeah. Developers are motivated to maximize number of properly-priced units in a building. Common spaces are usually not the highlight. Maybe if there were lounges on every floor (just like in dorms), and a bigger common space on the top floor that encourages coffee-shop ambiance but with more opportunities to spontaneously interact, that could be pretty neat. This way, every unit is still self-contained and you can stay isolated if you want, but you can just as easily go read in the lounge.
  - astrofinch 7y ago
    Why not have the common space on the bottom floor and make it an actual coffee shop? Then you're no longer working against developer incentives. I guess it would need to be mixed-use zoning.
    - jamesknelson 7y ago
      Living in Japan where mixed-use zoning is the norm, there is often a small local bar within walking distance from where you live that can fulfill this role. This has been one of the best parts of living here for me, I can’t imagine going back to the western world where zoning and local government often makes local meeting places effectively illegal. Something makes me wonder if this is part of the reason Japan is so safe, as well. If you’re first choice for drinking is a place where everyone knows you and lives nearby, you’ve got a much greater incentive to behave than if you need to drive to the other side of the city. Not to mention that it reduces drink driving, and combined with public transport, makes it possible to have a zero tolerance on drink driving policy.
carapace 7y ago
People don't sing together as much as we used to.
- blisterpeanuts 7y ago
  Folk song societies are great. Someone else mentioned ballroom dancing. Wonderful activities that take us out of our technology mindset and engage different parts of the brain.
ada1981 7y ago
It’s fairly easy to build a community of friends. Also, things like Ultimate Frisbee are free -/ we play every morning in Brooklyn’s Prospect Park; when I was in Palo Alto / SF we played a few days a week; and I even built a league / scene from scratch in my hometown of Erie, PA 20 years ago.
- ada1981 7y ago
  The downvote on this comment is a strong signal.
starpilot 7y ago
I just can't go back to a roomie situation due to having a cat (most of those places forbid pets) and wanting to bring girls over without asking for permission and having awkward introductions. The freedom of my own pad is worth the occasional isolation pangs.
- proverbialbunny 7y ago
  I have room mates (by choice) and one of my room mates has two cats and brings a person or two over every other night. He's super extroverted. I'm pretty introverted so I like my privacy. Not once has this extroverted room mate bothered me by bringing one or two people over, though I do have a cat allergy, so I've had to learn to hiss just the right way to speak cat enough to let them know not to walk into my room.
  - starpilot 7y ago
    That's true, you can have very tolerable roommates. Then again, to women there's definitely an added appeal to a guy who has his own place, especially when you're over 30.
    - proverbialbunny 7y ago
      It depends on the culture. I'm female and I don't care, but then again I have room mates so I might be biased.
- astrofinch 7y ago
  That's why you need better roommate matching: to find roommates who are cool with a cat + overnight guests.
proverbialbunny 7y ago
imho loneliness is a systemic problem caused by a lack of understanding of what a friend really is. To demonstrate this, if you walked around and asked random people, or people you know, what a friend is, what is the odds they will answer correctly? An acquaintance is someone you see in passing and have had a few conversations with. You know a bit about them, and hopefully enjoy their presence. Facebook, as far as I can tell, encourages building networks of acquaintances. A friend, on the other hand, is an acquaintance you've gotten to know, but it turns out both of you want to one-on-one spend some time together. Catching up from time to time, or just hanging out. Whatever it is, both enjoy each other's presence enough to hang out outside of parties or meetups or whatever it may be. This usually comes from finding common hobbies but can be found through other methods. Sometimes I just like hanging out and watching a movie with people. Everyone has their preferences. imho this is where American (and possibly Western) culture is failing atm. Many people like the acquaintances they know, but are unaware they can ask to hang out and spend more time together. It doesn't come up as a valid option for many people. From there, there is degrees of friendship. Is it once or twice a year catching up, or is it someone you want to hang out with once or twice a month? This is often how circles of friends are created. When someone knows multiple people they want to hang out with once a month or less, it becomes easier to create group get togethers. I host movie nights, but go to gaming nights with people. It turns into that sort of thing. At the end of the day, to have friends, you have to be a friend; you have to take that step of asking people to hang out or catch up. You have to be proactive. Otherwise, how will they know you like their presence? In a world full of people who do not know they can pull people into their social world, the few who do have an easy time choosing their friends and setting up their friend networks. Not being lonely is important. Loneliness is the single largest precursor to depression. For many knowing how to gain friends is enough to curb or even remove their depression. For others there are other causes, which is why depression is such a complex subject. Now you know what it is and how to do it. Now you have no excuse. Go make some friends! ^_^
blisterpeanuts 7y ago
There's also the notion of getting married and raising a family. When you have children, you almost automatically become part of a new social network that you may never have even been aware of before: parents. You suddenly have a lot in common with other parents and it's not unlike being part of a special club. And of course it's the most fascinating hobby there is. It's somewhat ironic that not so long ago, we were pretty much all married and making babies by age 20, and now we tend to stay single through our 20s while strategizing ways to avoid becoming lonely.
personjerry 7y ago
My understanding is that our body systems have feedback mechanisms. But the system is complex. One system is this loneliness mechanism that values long term attachments and repeated communal interaction, and makes us feel lonely if we don't get them. But the other system is more immediate -- validation and entertainment trigger dopamine releases for a small happiness boost on the spot, i.e. with social media. And like a Goodhart's Law sort of scenario (i.e. metrics eventually get optimized for and cease to be meaningful) we've gotten really good at optimizing for that dopamine hit without all the other variables that would typically be associated with that validation. For example, perhaps when these feedback mechanisms were developed, you'd typically be physically in person, interacting with and being validated by a community, and hence the anti-loneliness system would've worked in tandem with the dopamine system. So we've actually actively gamed our bodies' systems for the cheap feel-good, and now we pay the price of long term loneliness.
paggle 7y ago
This should be an add-on to companies like Tinder. People will provide a lot of data in the interest of finding a romantic or sexual partner. Tinder could say “sorry about that bad date but here’s this guy you might like living with!”
mbar84 7y ago
Print version, if you're into that sorta thing: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a89qnbm9tsr0hf6/AAC-VxKRjH76D_K94We7YQUka?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a89qnbm9tsr0hf6/AAC-VxKRjH76D_K94...
HNLurker2 7y ago
Oy vey lesswrong

212 points by astrofinch 7y ago

Well now we know what the childless 25-year old programmer demographic thinks.

Started out great and then started talking about roommates and became an advertisement for the roommate matching service. I don’t think that is the answer to loneliness.

TomMarius 7y ago
For me it was the solution to loneliness. I was never so happy as I am now with roommates. I used to think I prefer to live alone, not really anymore. Of course that is anecdote, but IMHO it helps some groups of people.

shadowmore 7y ago

"Without the framework of a uniting religion, ethnicity, or purpose, it's hard to get people to truly commit to a given community." Points out that multiculturalism is destroying our civilization. Then goes on to brainstorm completely irrelevant solutions, as if the idea of simply restoring proper homogeneity is just forbidden by a higher power.

caser 7y ago
You can have uniting religion, ethnicity, or purpose and still have multiculturalism. You just have people deeply engaged with separate communities. The real problem he’s talking about is disaffiliation —- people not feeling connected to any overarching group to which they experience a sense of belonging.
strikelaserclaw 7y ago
Loneliness seems to be a common thread even in homogenous first world countries like Japan. I think the modern way of people moving all the world for economic opportunity, and the much greater emphasis on "work" probably contributes far more to loneliness than multiculturalism.
- spookybones 7y ago
  I completely agree.
- freddie_mercury 7y ago
  Like all problems in the real world, I doubt there is a single, simple explanation like that. Other factors that I imagine contribute: the rise of social programs (e.g. Social Security) mean that families aren't responsible for elder care anymore. Young people are encouraged to leave the house asap after graduating high school. Failure to do so is seen to reflect poorly on the person and their parents. Even among middle and low income earners, sharing households is less common in the past. The rise of extreme parenting and related reduction in parental friendships. The housing wealth of previous generations allowing them to sell a house in Boston and relocate to Phoenix, putting grandparents thousands of miles away from their children. The rise of both spouses working meaning the non-working spouse can't lean on the social networks of the stay at home spouse. Widespread air conditioning leading to death of outdoor neighborhood life (e.g. sitting on the porch) The rise of college education and the increase in going to school further from home. (As recently as the 1970s over 55% of Stanford's students came from California.) Those are just a few off the top of my head. I don't disagree that moving for work plays a role but back in the 1930s lots of people moved around the US for work (more than today) and work was far more all consuming (having only 2 days off the entire year was not uncommon, e.g. working every weekend, no breaks). And loneliness appears to have been less prevalent then than now.
spookybones 7y ago
If you’re really committed to proper homogeneity, you should avoid the English language.

caser 7y ago

In a city like NYC, the only people you really see regularly are the people you live with, the people you work with, and the people you sleep with. Finding good roommates is definitely one way to solve the problem, but if you’re not knee deep in a community with a strong sense of values and culture (like EA), finding matches can be challenging. Also, as someone who has been in and around this space, several of the coliving companies you mentioned are not doing well financially. Especially in NYC, all of the coliving spots (some of which have raised significant capital) have almost all their inventory in deep Brooklyn or Queens. It’s nearly impossible to find a good share in the city unless you stumble into it or create it with friends, which depends on having a wide network of people who have leases ending around the same time (or who are willing to break leases). Also, much of the good housing inventory is either taken or overpriced, so part of this also depends on either having wealthy friends or finding a way to finagle a deal on a place before it hits the market. Last thing I’ll say is that one of the reasons why people only see roommates, coworkers, and partners regularly is because of lack of religious / school affiliation. It’s hard to get people to commit to something weekly, but if you can do it, it’s way easier to spin up than coordinating a group house. The past few months I’ve been doing a weekly Monday breakfast with 2 friends —- it’s quickly become the highlight of all of our weeks. Other than, I think the best choice is to find (or create) something that you’re willing to commit to at least 1x per week. Finding a spiritual institution (even an agnostic friendly one like humanist society or Unitarian church), picking up a martial art, or auditing a course at a local grad school (this is my recent fav) are all ways you can find more depth in city life. +1 for the idea of community porn, though. 1-off events just aren’t the same.

grogenaut 7y ago
You mention but don't list in your bullet points the 4th: hobbies... Which is charities, church, or any other shared interest group. Makerspaces, book clubs, matial arts, literally everything you have to do with others.
strikelaserclaw 7y ago
Probably goes with the culture of flakiness that having too much choice gives. First time someone goes to an event, they don't immediately feel the spark or whatever, off to do other things.

spookybones 7y ago

A simple solution would seem to be an OKCupid clone that is strictly for friends and perhaps another for roommates. It is very good at aligning mutual interests and proximity and giving a sense of personalities. I see a large untapped market for older people as well. Unlike RL, you know going in that anyone on there is looking for companionship, which considerably reduces awkwardness.

donretag 7y ago
Bumble has a BFF feature.
- icebraining 7y ago
  OKC itself lets you say you're only looking for friends. Whether that discourages creeps is anyone's guess.
  - spookybones 7y ago
    Yeah, I think the problem is that it’s clearly not the real purpose of the app. Even users seeking friends are sometimes seeking people who they may eventually date once they recover from a breakup.
  - Mountain_Skies 7y ago
    I've tried that. Turned out that most people took it as code for "friends with benefits" with heavy emphasis on the benefits and very little on the friends part. Which is ok for those who have that as their goal but a bit confusing for those who haven't figured out the code yet.
  - starpilot 7y ago
    This is a hard sell when the site is called OkCupid.
rzzzt 7y ago
The age old tale goes that FriendFinder was intended to be such a website, before gaining the prefix.

geargrinder 7y ago

John Vervaeke - Awakening from the Meaning Crisis https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrS...

javert 7y ago
It would be helpful to actually give a short explanation of what you are linking to, rather than a bare link with the title.
- igammarays 7y ago
  The Meaning Crisis is John Vervaeke’s term for the Western breakdown in religion, community, family, and ultimately a “meaningful life”, which he traces back to various uniquely Western historical factors. It’s not just an analysis, however, as he makes a heroic attempt to reassemble what was lost with religion, without religion. Really profound lecture series. Opens your eyes to what we’ve actually lost in the modern world.
  - javert 7y ago
    Are you saying he presents a new theory somewhere around item 27 or 28 in the playlist? Because prior to that it looks like a survey of Western philosophy, just judging by the titles of the videos.

dagnysdildo 7y ago

If you're lonely, adopt a dog from your local animal shelter. A cat is fine, too.

rini17 7y ago
Excuse me, this is bad advice. If someone is lonely they will have problem to find anyone who can take care of the pet when they can't (such as when they are away).
- starpilot 7y ago
  There are pet sitters and pet boarding services in most cities.
  - rini17 7y ago
    Which must be usually booked in advance. Really, pet care can't be handwaved off and downvoted.
    - starpilot 7y ago
      Lonely people can still plan their lives and act as adults. I'm one of them, a cat sitter is watching my cat right now. In any case, usually having your friends pet sit has to be discussed in advance as well. You have to hand over the house key etc.
slang800 7y ago
Pets are not a replacement for human interaction.
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  Not that I totally agree with GP, but they can certainly help with a lack of human interaction, even if they don't solve the issue.
- starpilot 7y ago

dahdum 7y ago

Roam.co is essentially out of business, but having spent several weeks in their Tokyo property it was a great experience. Always someone around to chat or eat with. Tokyo has a large number of Sharehouses built and managed by the full stack businesses the author mentions (along with smaller co-op styles). Roam Tokyo rented a floor of a sharehouse building which had regular tenants, coworking space, conference rooms, and a large commercial style kitchen. The model definitely works well enough in Japan, including many with a mix of natives and expats.

brunooo 7y ago
Hey, Roam founder here - we’re actually just switching our business model from fake tech company to a more equitable real-estate approach and thus phasing out unsustainable leases. More on that more publicly in about 1-2 months. Thanks for living with us in Tokyo and the kind words tough!
- dahdum 7y ago
  Hi Bruno, I wish you the best. I’m going back to Japan for a couple months this winter and going to miss the Roam experience so much. Most sharehouses don’t do 2-3 months. Both the community managers were fantastic. Looking forward to see your new business model!
  - brunooo 7y ago
    Thank you, truly appreciated. Both Marika, and I assume Krystal, are incredible humans. The WhatsApp group is still going strong, so at least there’s an informal Roam for the time being - Marika is working on a coworking space at the moment, so there should be a home no matter where you end up this winter. And yes, looking forward as well, thanks again!
astrofinch 7y ago
What issues did Roam.co run into?
- 7y ago

mcguire 7y ago

"...especially in the Bay Area. ... But there's a palpable lack of social fabric. I worry that this atomization is becoming a world-wide phenomenon – that we might be some of the first generations without the sort of community that it's in human nature to rely on." Are we talking about a general problem, or about a group of 20-somethings who grew up with families, went to college where they had a lot of free time with a bunch of others in the same situation, and then moved hundreds or thousands of miles to a place that puts emphasis on lack of ties, short terms, mobility, and long work hours? 'Cause I can assure you that most of the lonely people in the world can't afford $100 per month for a friend network.

watwut 7y ago
This was downvoted a lot, but I think there is something on it. The same value system that makes you see life outside of work as being lazy, prefers short term relationships and generally praise following own interests has higher chance of leaving you without close friends and community in the long term. and it is also true that lonely poor or sick people or those caring about such relatives can be extremely lonely and isolated too, but with harder or non existent solutions.
sjg007 7y ago
The most lonely are old people I think.. but the ones that live in senior housing tend to do a lot better. Kids in college also do well since they are among their peers.. One idea to push this forward is mixed use housing. Parents want to find other parents so their kids can play. Teenagers likewise. So you need all ages in your little "village".
- bhl 7y ago
  Kids in college are also lonely; I go to a school with a relatively large undergraduate populations. The result is that many people have trouble finding friends given that interactions are less frequent. Dorms and free time do help, but in the first week there were a lot of posts asking others on how they made their friends.

jrumbut 7y ago

Something that goes unquestioned in this article is that you want to live with people who are like you down to the same taste in video games. I find this not to be true for me, and that I find it easiest to live with people that are different enough that you end up needing to use kindness to relate to each other. After having felt isolated in my previous living situations, I'm now in a complex where we all hang out in the parking lot most afternoons. I'm a software engineer, my neighbors include bus drivers, clerks, landscapers, those who have no visible means of support, etc. It's a nice relaxed environment, which I don't experience when people who are too similar are around. This is a problem with a lot of matching systems, sometimes similarity isn't desirable.

SaltyBackendGuy 7y ago
> people that are different enough that you end up needing to use kindness to relate to each other I've never heard it put quite this way before, and it's so true. Thanks for this.
opportune 7y ago
Personality, while much harder to measure than interests, is a much better way to determine if people can be friends. And “interests”, unless you take them very seriously like being an amateur golfer or musician or something, are quite ephemeral; I tend to share interests with friends because we became friends first and then both got into new hobbies together, not vice versa.
icebraining 7y ago
I don't think the article is saying that everyone must match to that level of specifiety, or that your preferences must match your own characteristics. I'm sure some people would try to find people just like them, but you could just list your "must haves", or even exclude people like you. A good example is OKC (the dating site), which asks you a bunch of questions, and then lets you choose one or more "acceptable" answers, and how strongly you feel about that. You can choose to accept all answers for most questions, or to say the other person must answer exactly one way, it's up to the user.
- 7y ago

therealmarv 7y ago

It's not about roommates alone. Many people like myself don't want to share space but enjoy going to a local coworking and having a community there with people who do stuff also outside work. I've found some real friends there.

dglass 7y ago

For remote workers in the Bay Area that deal with the added loneliness of working from home, Out Of Office[0] hosts weekly popup coworking sessions at different locations around San Francisco. It's a great way to get out of the house and meet other people while getting your work done. [0] https://outofoffice.app/workclub https://outofoffice.app/workclub

alexashka 7y ago

This is a way to scratch your left foot when your right foot itches. The way to alleviate loneliness, is to do meaningful work. Meaningful work will inevitably involve other people. It's not loneliness so much as being so fucking bored, because everything that took up your time in the past centuries, has now been automated, and you're sent to prison for 10+ years to break your spirit as early as 3 years old. You send children to school where they have no autonomy, have to sit quietly and memorize stupid bullshit through their entire childhood, and then wonder why they go nuts in all kinds of unpredictable ways. We're not meant to do stupid bullshit we see no value in doing our entire lives. What's a roommate gonna do to alleviate that? Just skip roommate, try heroin to forget this shit existence and plunge into a world of bliss.

majewsky 7y ago
Like so many comments on the internet, this would've been great if you had stopped one sentence earlier.
CryptoPunk 7y ago
>>We're not meant to do stupid bullshit we see no value in doing our entire lives. Then stop doing meaningless things. We're all part of a grand story, and we can play our part to move it forward. When you find a meaningful purpose, then you'll be able to tolerate the years of trudging forward that it can take achieve goals. Nothing is more meaningless than abandoning your role in the world with chemical distractions.

lifeisstillgood 7y ago

In my twenties I tried (a couple of times but not really tried) to live in communes / large houses of more than 12 people It worked ok ish most of the time but I honestly think it is a significant part of the answer - as cities become more crowded just chucking people together to work it out has many positive benefits - child care sharing is easier at some life stages, meeting others, community activism and so on all seemed to flow naturally. Along with Barcelona style super-blocks I would recommend communes / high density households as a good option

jborichevskiy 7y ago
Out of curiosity what made it ok-ish? What were the biggest pain points? I've been tempted to try it myself.
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  Housing costs - it's expensive finding that big a location and weirdly there is a sort of flip point (in London) where more people stopped reducing the delta cost per person if that makes sense moving from "just house mates" to "we need some rules as a community" starts all sorts of "oh I don't know if I really want to think of it this way" - and the sort of people who really want to be in a commune with rules turn out to be the sort of people you would not want to have ... earnest and unemployed (see housing cost) I think "house mates" is a good level to live at - probably for most life stages to be honest. And we could easily redefine a village (cluster of cave dwellings / Skara Brae / babylonian houses) to be the same house - it was for many ages for many parts of the world one thing we could call a structure
  - jborichevskiy 7y ago
    Makes sense, thanks for elaborating. Agreed on the housemates level- living with roommates I am also good friends with seems to have been my best living arrangement so far.

petercooper 7y ago

I'm only slightly facetious here, but Twitch and the video gaming industry are already making billions reducing loneliness.. :-)

izzydata 7y ago
I'd like to suggest that they are making it worse. We used to play games together on the couch, but now we can be alone in our houses watching strangers instead. Social media in general is making us all more lonely while tricking us into thinking we are interacting with others.
- odessacubbage 7y ago
  what's the last non-fighting game that even had couch co op? >Social media in general is making us all more lonely while tricking us into thinking we are interacting with others. it really feels like maybe we were too successful in solving boredom. why would anyone strike up a conversation at the bus stop anymore when they have instant access to their ingroup and their preferred dopamine drip? the age old wisdom of 'just go ahead, you're not bothering them' is essentially meaningless now. i have apps for networking and finding clients, i have apps for hookups and maybe even relationships, but where do i go just to make a friend who doesn't want sex or business?
  - thesorrow 7y ago
    Apps want to do too much. Maybe we need apps that let us do our part as human. I don't want to have every match possible presented to me but I'd love to have a notification saying "5 friends down your street are actually going out and are okay to include some new people. One of them loves 80's synth music just like you". After that you decide but you'll have the opportunity to get true IRL interactions...
furi 7y ago
I think Twitch would occupy the same category of "band-aid" services described in the article. It's a commercial simulation of hanging out with friends but scaled up so one person can provide the experience of a friend for a few hundred or thousands and the price scaled down to match ($0 for most participants, with some people paying for emojis or whatever it is spending money on Twitch gets you).

kart23 7y ago

Adult fraternities. More commonly known as secret societies or just clubs. Theres already a few of them, but I believe it's pretty uncommon to be in one. Make em so they can choose who to accept as well, something at least slightly exclusive is better for everyone in the end. It can really take any form, a clubhouse, house where some people live and others just come to hang out, etc. But what's really important is a space that a smaller group of people feel comfortable in, responsible for, and feel a strong connection to the other people in the group.

deleted 7y ago
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Mountain_Skies 7y ago
Universal inclusion has risen to the level of religion. You can't join such a club because if your membership is discovered, your employer will be pressured to fire you regardless of how mundane the club.
- kaitai 7y ago
  I don't think this is true. The sibling comment is about Freemasons, but you can join Toastmasters, the Rotary Club, and any number of other social & community groups with no negative consequences (and even positive ones!). What are you thinking about when you make this statement?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
hokumguru 7y ago
On an anecdotal note I joined my local Freemasonry lodge a year ago and while it’s definitely not universally inclusive I definitely find extreme value in the connections I’m forming. Freemasonry in general is dying - it had a large spike in membership after WWII and Vietnam as soldiers found connections and brotherly love abroad (in the lodges all enlisted men were equals regardless of ranking) but in the decades since, convincing young men to join the brotherhood is difficult. I’m in my mid 20s and I’m the youngest member by 20 years Edit: I should clarify that FM isn’t as secret-society as the media makes it out to be. It’s a great social club to meet a wide variety of other people over dinners and outings with a strict ban on all talk of politics or religion (an extremely welcome escape in today’s climate)

hackbinary 7y ago

Start dancing. I started swing and jazz dancing a couple of years ago. The community is awesome, and you get to meet loads of people. There are regular events all over the world.

ScottFree 7y ago

Adult sport leagues. These are very common in Europe, but are fairly rare in the US.

paulpauper 7y ago

It seems like there is an obsession with loneliness as of late. I keep seeing articles on the front page that talk about it. I guess it's a big problem now.

Arete314159 7y ago

A good roommate situation can be fine, but a bad one can be terrible. We've got to have other options. Current internet connection tools encourage you to stay on your screen. You could easily design a system that nudges folks to actually get together in real time. Let's say you've been chatting via messenger for 10 minutes. Then you get a popup that says, "{name} is actually only x blocks away -- why don't you continue this over coffee?" Meanwhile, a real-time idea could be apartments or houses with shared common areas. I miss the common rooms of college where you just happen to run into people. We could do that again as adults without the 9-act dramatic operas that happen when you share too much living space with folks. There's such thing as a happy medium.

acidburnNSA 7y ago
Yeah. Developers are motivated to maximize number of properly-priced units in a building. Common spaces are usually not the highlight. Maybe if there were lounges on every floor (just like in dorms), and a bigger common space on the top floor that encourages coffee-shop ambiance but with more opportunities to spontaneously interact, that could be pretty neat. This way, every unit is still self-contained and you can stay isolated if you want, but you can just as easily go read in the lounge.
- astrofinch 7y ago
  Why not have the common space on the bottom floor and make it an actual coffee shop? Then you're no longer working against developer incentives. I guess it would need to be mixed-use zoning.
  - jamesknelson 7y ago
    Living in Japan where mixed-use zoning is the norm, there is often a small local bar within walking distance from where you live that can fulfill this role. This has been one of the best parts of living here for me, I can’t imagine going back to the western world where zoning and local government often makes local meeting places effectively illegal. Something makes me wonder if this is part of the reason Japan is so safe, as well. If you’re first choice for drinking is a place where everyone knows you and lives nearby, you’ve got a much greater incentive to behave than if you need to drive to the other side of the city. Not to mention that it reduces drink driving, and combined with public transport, makes it possible to have a zero tolerance on drink driving policy.

carapace 7y ago

People don't sing together as much as we used to.

blisterpeanuts 7y ago
Folk song societies are great. Someone else mentioned ballroom dancing. Wonderful activities that take us out of our technology mindset and engage different parts of the brain.

ada1981 7y ago

It’s fairly easy to build a community of friends. Also, things like Ultimate Frisbee are free -/ we play every morning in Brooklyn’s Prospect Park; when I was in Palo Alto / SF we played a few days a week; and I even built a league / scene from scratch in my hometown of Erie, PA 20 years ago.

ada1981 7y ago
The downvote on this comment is a strong signal.

starpilot 7y ago

I just can't go back to a roomie situation due to having a cat (most of those places forbid pets) and wanting to bring girls over without asking for permission and having awkward introductions. The freedom of my own pad is worth the occasional isolation pangs.

proverbialbunny 7y ago
I have room mates (by choice) and one of my room mates has two cats and brings a person or two over every other night. He's super extroverted. I'm pretty introverted so I like my privacy. Not once has this extroverted room mate bothered me by bringing one or two people over, though I do have a cat allergy, so I've had to learn to hiss just the right way to speak cat enough to let them know not to walk into my room.
- starpilot 7y ago
  That's true, you can have very tolerable roommates. Then again, to women there's definitely an added appeal to a guy who has his own place, especially when you're over 30.
  - proverbialbunny 7y ago
    It depends on the culture. I'm female and I don't care, but then again I have room mates so I might be biased.
astrofinch 7y ago
That's why you need better roommate matching: to find roommates who are cool with a cat + overnight guests.

proverbialbunny 7y ago

imho loneliness is a systemic problem caused by a lack of understanding of what a friend really is. To demonstrate this, if you walked around and asked random people, or people you know, what a friend is, what is the odds they will answer correctly? An acquaintance is someone you see in passing and have had a few conversations with. You know a bit about them, and hopefully enjoy their presence. Facebook, as far as I can tell, encourages building networks of acquaintances. A friend, on the other hand, is an acquaintance you've gotten to know, but it turns out both of you want to one-on-one spend some time together. Catching up from time to time, or just hanging out. Whatever it is, both enjoy each other's presence enough to hang out outside of parties or meetups or whatever it may be. This usually comes from finding common hobbies but can be found through other methods. Sometimes I just like hanging out and watching a movie with people. Everyone has their preferences. imho this is where American (and possibly Western) culture is failing atm. Many people like the acquaintances they know, but are unaware they can ask to hang out and spend more time together. It doesn't come up as a valid option for many people. From there, there is degrees of friendship. Is it once or twice a year catching up, or is it someone you want to hang out with once or twice a month? This is often how circles of friends are created. When someone knows multiple people they want to hang out with once a month or less, it becomes easier to create group get togethers. I host movie nights, but go to gaming nights with people. It turns into that sort of thing. At the end of the day, to have friends, you have to be a friend; you have to take that step of asking people to hang out or catch up. You have to be proactive. Otherwise, how will they know you like their presence? In a world full of people who do not know they can pull people into their social world, the few who do have an easy time choosing their friends and setting up their friend networks. Not being lonely is important. Loneliness is the single largest precursor to depression. For many knowing how to gain friends is enough to curb or even remove their depression. For others there are other causes, which is why depression is such a complex subject. Now you know what it is and how to do it. Now you have no excuse. Go make some friends! ^_^

blisterpeanuts 7y ago

There's also the notion of getting married and raising a family. When you have children, you almost automatically become part of a new social network that you may never have even been aware of before: parents. You suddenly have a lot in common with other parents and it's not unlike being part of a special club. And of course it's the most fascinating hobby there is. It's somewhat ironic that not so long ago, we were pretty much all married and making babies by age 20, and now we tend to stay single through our 20s while strategizing ways to avoid becoming lonely.

personjerry 7y ago

My understanding is that our body systems have feedback mechanisms. But the system is complex. One system is this loneliness mechanism that values long term attachments and repeated communal interaction, and makes us feel lonely if we don't get them. But the other system is more immediate -- validation and entertainment trigger dopamine releases for a small happiness boost on the spot, i.e. with social media. And like a Goodhart's Law sort of scenario (i.e. metrics eventually get optimized for and cease to be meaningful) we've gotten really good at optimizing for that dopamine hit without all the other variables that would typically be associated with that validation. For example, perhaps when these feedback mechanisms were developed, you'd typically be physically in person, interacting with and being validated by a community, and hence the anti-loneliness system would've worked in tandem with the dopamine system. So we've actually actively gamed our bodies' systems for the cheap feel-good, and now we pay the price of long term loneliness.

paggle 7y ago

This should be an add-on to companies like Tinder. People will provide a lot of data in the interest of finding a romantic or sexual partner. Tinder could say “sorry about that bad date but here’s this guy you might like living with!”

mbar84 7y ago

Print version, if you're into that sorta thing: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a89qnbm9tsr0hf6/AAC-VxKRjH76D_K94We7YQUka?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a89qnbm9tsr0hf6/AAC-VxKRjH76D_K94...

HNLurker2 7y ago

Oy vey lesswrong