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Ask HN: A colleague is leaving. How to investigate what went wrong?
A colleague at work is leaving the company soon saying "I don't feel like I'm a fit for <xyz> company". I'll be speaking to them in unofficial capacity soon. What all should we talk about? A few things that came to mind:
- what all do you need to get a new job?
- why do they feel they are not a "fit"
- is there a systemic problem?
- when did this feeling arise since they joined with lots of enthusiasm?
- what could I have done personally / in official capacity that might have stopped this
- how do you think we missed this?
To the HN community: What other things can I ask them to prevent/improve this situation in the future? Is there even something to improve here?
- mooreds 7y agoI think it depends on your trust level with the colleague. Or rather, their trust in you. When you leave sometimes you don't want to help improve things for people staying, you just want/need to get the heck out. It can feel petty to present a laundry list of things you wish your former employer would change. I'd approach that head on and assure them that: 1. You will keep anything they say confidential (unless there's anything illegal that surfaces) 2. You are acting in an unofficial capacity, not as a company person 3. You are having the conversation to help the other team members, not the company (because they will likely care more about them) 4. You want to hear whatever they have to say, no matter how big or small
- bayesian_horse 7y agoThe time to listen for "what's wrong" would be before they are leaving. But I generally find that people who are leaving are quite open about the reasons, when asked. Especially if they are more about the job rather than themselves.
- davismwfl 7y agoThis will all depend on what your role in the company is today and what your relationship with this person is. If you are in a leadership role at the company he/she may not want to open up to you for fear of reprisal even if you two have been friendly. If you two are teammates and you do not have a leadership role they may still not feel comfortable opening up to you because likely they have made comments and if no one picked up on it to discuss with them then they will feel you are complicit or accepting of the situation and don't want to create tension. There is no harm trying to learn why for sure, but also know sometimes (especially with more senior people) people recognize when their thought processes, methodologies just don't align well with a team or company so they will remove themselves. This doesn't actually mean there is anything wrong with the company/team or with that person, just they recognized the differences and know those would create conflict, tension or struggles for themselves on the team. This is a healthy thing to have happen. That said, it is a very small number of the people that leave usually, more common reasons of leaving are for a lack of recognition, money and/or progress. If you and the person leaving are both IC's then ask them from a place of curiosity to better understand what they might have seen that you haven't. This is probably the best way to get data points and be non-threatening to the person. When I say non-threatening, I don't mean you literally threatening them, but if you come at them with 20 questions it can start to feel like an interrogation and the persons self defense mechanisms will go up and conversation will go no where. If you are in any kind of leadership role at the company, come at them from the place of not wanting to lose a good person, but respecting that sometimes people move on for a whole host of reasons. From your perspective you are trying to confidentially understand what the company could do better or change that might make the difference for the next person. Approach it this way, once they tell you if the asks are reasonable say if we made these adjustments would you stay, but don't approach the entire conversation from a place of would you stay. Approach it from the point of view to make sure issues are resolved for the rest of the team and the next people coming in. This is the best way to get data points usually and do so in a way people feel more open to chat. If at the end you ask them if these changes were made would you stay and they say no, then ask why not? That sometimes will open up a more true reason. *edit: changed a word for readability
- theSage 7y agoI don't understand what IC's means. Is it a standard term?
- discordance 7y agoIndividual contributor - people not on the managerial path, who can continue to grow and be rewarded in their career as do-ers (as developers or whatever else)
- davismwfl 7y agoSorry, I should have spelled out the IC (individual contributor), but discordance gave a good description on this.
- OzzyB 7y agoIt's what we used to refer to as "the talent".
- bayesian_horse 7y agoTalking about the quality of a "fit" can be misleading. It presupposes that the factors which make people leave are actually beneficial to other people or the company. That's certainly not the case with toxic coworkers. Probably there are more examples...
- wenc 7y agoIf you google "exit interview" you will find tons of opinions and ideas (example [1]). Timing is important -- if you want to get useful information, you need to time the exit interview 1-3 months after departure so there's (typically) no fear of repercussion so folks' views tend to be more candid. [1] https://hbr.org/2016/04/making-exit-interviews-count https://hbr.org/2016/04/making-exit-interviews-count
- robjan 7y agoNot sure how many people would actually go to an exit interview after they have left and presumably started somewhere else.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 7y agoYou’d probably be getting some real feedback though.
- mentos 7y agoI imagine you could offer an economic incentive to give the feedback
- chrisseaton 7y agoWhy would you submit to an interview with a company you’ve already left months ago? Are they paying for your time to do that? What on earth is in it for you at that point? All you can do is piss people off with your criticism.
- wenc 7y agoNo one has to, but like all things in life, some people do for whatever reason... I guess enough do for "exit interviews" to even be a thing.
- codingdave 7y ago> what could I have done personally / in official capacity that might have stopped this Were you their supervisor/manager/lead? If so, the standard answer is to have regular 1:1s with your staff, so things like this do not come as a surprise. And you cannot always keep everyone. Sometimes things really are not a fit. The last job I left was for reasons that had nothing to do with the team or product, or anything easily changeable. I simply wasn't OK with the commute to a new office. There are a myriad of personal reasons that someone might not want to work somewhere. That doesn't mean the company is flawed - it just means people are different, and have different preferences and needs. I'd recommend spending less focus on why one person left, and more on ongoing discussions with the people who remain, as well as being sure new staff has every opportunity to learn about the company, so they can self-select out before they are hired if they see anything that would not work well for them.
- ellius 7y agoAmen. I'll throw in a pitch for "High Output Management," which does a good job of describing how and why to do 1-on-1s. Everyone hates meetings, but they're the primary way for people to propagate information and vent feelings. If you don't have 1-on-1s, people will bottle up feelings that don't have an outlet in other standard meetings. And if you don't have an environment of trust, no one will talk to begin with. So focus on creating an atmosphere where people can talk and then formalize and consistently create occasions for them to share their feelings-about themselves, about their careers, about their projects. Anything that you want visibility into needs to have a channel. And then just accept that your organization will evolve and you can't keep everyone, or make every project successful, or always beat your competition. Life isn't perfect. Being a leader is about driving a strategy and culture while bound by the constraints of your particular situation and the world in general.
- DoreenMichele 7y agoI left my corporate job for personal reasons largely unrelated to the job per se. I certainly had my criticisms of the company, but probably needed to leave regardless. So while you try to gather information, keep in mind that "not a good fit" could be a polite way of saying "It's none of your business and kindly butt the hell out of my private life, thank you." Not everything that happens around you is about "you"/the company. That's not how life works.
- theSage 7y agoI understand. Maybe if the conversation takes that tone we'll just have a nice tea and go back to life.
- duxup 7y agoProvided you've some relationship with this person / they feel free to speak I would try to get them to speak in a more open ended manner about the job and their experience. Personally I find when folks ask me specific questions about my job ... we don't have a common language and I have no idea what they really mean by what they're asking. Also be open to the idea that this was just bound to happen and it is nobody's fault. Some jobs just aren't for some people depending on any number of factors.
- theSage 7y agoI don't think I fully understand what you've said. I'm sorry for butchering this but, do you mean to say that when specific questions are asked the underlying assumptions are so out of sync that you cannot formulate an answer they would understand? I think an example would help?
- Causality1 7y agoMore often than not it's because their boss doesn't care about the answer to those questions, even if you their peer do.
- rajacombinator 7y agoSounds like this person is your employee or direct report. Are you underpaying them? Do you use toxic “agile” practices at work? It’s very likely you can figure out why they left without asking.
- PaulKeeble 7y agoMost of the time people leave bosses, not the job or the company. Almost all interactions are relatively close by, colleagues and their direct boss and if that isn't a comfortable environment with trust then usually that is what leads to resignation. If you don't know this individual it is unlikely they will honestly tell you why and the boss or coworkers may very well give no honest insight either regardless of the questions. They want out and they don't want your organisation ruining their future prospects with a bad reference. Most people do try to fix the problem before they just leave so at this point they consider it not worth voicing the problems further.
- theSage 7y agoI'm their coworker and this is what I'm afraid of. I am haunted by the question "what if it has been our work environment that caused the move?" I don't suppose toxic people think/know that they are toxic, so how do I find out if we are?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- x0x0 7y agoHere's the thing. Your writing doesn't make it sound at all like this person trusts you, and you said you're doing this in a quasi-official capacity. Those two things make me think your management either sucks, or fucked up and wants to know what your coworker will say. If you had a good relationship w/ this person already, you could take them out to coffee and pretty much ask, "so, what happened?". Since you don't, and since your coworker is presumably not stupid, you're probably going to get the same answer that your management team would get. Which brings me to my next point: your management team should know. If this person's boss isn't doing weekly 1-1s and closely monitoring this person's enthusiasm for the job and company, then they're an incompetent boss. That's table stakes for competent management. Particularly when a coworker quits over an "I'm not a good fit", that means (1) there's a problem, and (2) I don't trust management. Acting as an agent of management isn't going to get the answer.
- techslave 7y agoyou’re overthinking it
- cryptozeus 7y agoLook into underlying reasons 1) employees leave mostly because of manager 2) Not being challenged enough at work 3) Got a job at another company with better pay 4) personal reason, burn out etc.
- taneq 7y agoJust to break out 1/2 a bit more: 1a) Employee not being given clear guidance of what they're meant to achieve 1b) Employee being micromanaged intolerably 1c) Employee being told to take responsibility for something while not being given the power to fix it 1d) Employee not being allowed any autonomy or scope for creativity 1e/2a) Employee being forced to spend their entire working life cleaning up others' messes with no chance to work on anything new and interesting ("because you're good at fixing problems!") while those same others go on to trainwreck each new project 2b) Corporate goals limiting employee's ability to build the best product they can build (through some attempt to avoid competing with another product line, for instance)
- ynsaX 7y agoIf you want an honest answer, perhaps he or she does not like the singular they. If I read your question, I'd not be a fit for this company either. It creeps me out when people use they for someone with a known gender.
- perl4ever 7y agoTheir gender is not "known"...by you.
- perfunctory 7y ago"what went wrong"? I don't like the phrasing. People leaving and wanting to do something else is perfectly normal. There is nothing wrong about it. It's just a fact of life. The best way to deal with it (apart from offering a better compensation) is to wish them all the best and say they are always welcome back.
- theSage 7y agoHmm, perhaps I should have said "How to investigate if something went wrong?". You're right that people leaving is normal. What I'd like to be sure of is that they are leaving because of the right reasons.
- neltnerb 7y agoJust ask them about what they're doing next and what they're excited about. If they want to get into details it might give insight into what they've been missing, at least you'll get to know them better.
- lubujackson 7y agoYour curiosity, professional or personal, probably has little bearing on what they tell you. The wording you use doesn't matter - exit interviews are always framed as "what we could have done better/could do better in the future?" but it is rarely so innocent in reality, and people know this. At best, companies use divulged complaints as a basis for negotiation retain the employee (what if we raised your salary to match your offer? What if we reassigned you to a different manager?) but often it is simply used get the employee to sign a waiver relieving to company of any legal blame. And a likely outcome is that their complaint about their boss gets passed along and it bites them in the ass when they need a referral down the road. So what advantage do they have for being honest? In what way could it possibly benefit THEM to tell you anything? To be honest, a company should always know or be able to figure out the real answer to this question if it their own doing. Either the employee got a better job or the writing was on the wall. If you as a company have people leaving and no one knows why, you don't ask the leaving people you ask the people who are staying - Bob is leaving, is there anything we can do to improve YOUR experience? When they are out the door it is too late, so focus on the employees that are there.
- theSage 7y agoI never thought of this. Thank you.
- minipci1321 7y agoAlso, while asking people that sort of question, ask yourself whether improving the situation is within your reach, whatever is the cause? If you think you could -- do you think people you are interviewing, also believe you can? I wouldn't tell anything to a person who has no power or no incentive to improve things, and sadly, this covers 100% of people one usually has exit interviews with. So I always declined them, politely. You wouldn't believe how much respect and good contacts this attitude earned me over the years.
- ryanobjc 7y agoI don’t really know you or this situation... but there’s a chance that you’re part of the problem. And they won’t tell you that. I think one thing to reflect on is why you didn’t know this about the pointlessness of exit interviews and the danger of “real talk.” Don’t worry though - I didn’t for a while either. Experience will get you there.
- goatinaboat 7y agoIf you search workplace.SE for this you will know that the consensus is to say nothing in an exit interview https://workplace.stackexchange.com/search?q=exit+interview https://workplace.stackexchange.com/search?q=exit+interview
- AlexCoventry 7y agoWhat's your interest in this? Are you their peer or their superior?
- house9-2 7y ago> I'll be speaking to them in unofficial capacity soon. What all should we talk about? The weather. You are talking in an unofficial capacity I don't think any of your proposed questions should be discussed; except maybe showing interest in their future, did they already get another job? If not let them know you can be used as a reference. > What other things can I ask them to prevent/improve this situation in the future? Don't ask, if they trust you they will let you know. May have nothing to do with your company at all. Honestly, I think you need to ask yourself the questions you are proposing, if you are paying attention then you already know the answers.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 7y agoNot to be rude, but rather to provide some perspective, and totally guessing here, but perhaps the person is leaving because you are always getting up in his business and acting like a tight ass.
- nrmitchi 7y agoPrefacing your statement with "Not to be rude" does absolutely nothing here. This is an entirely rude and unnecessary comment.
- mwfunk 7y ago"Not to be rude" is one of those statements that does the opposite of what people who use it seem to think it does. It basically announces that that's exactly their intention and they think it gives them a get-out-of-jail-free card for saying it. It's always followed by something totally unnecessary, it's never followed by something useful or insightful that the other person might inadvertently take the wrong way. These types of phrases are common and obvious enough that I'm surprised there's not a word for them. See also: "I hate to tell you, but" (they don't hate to tell you, in fact the delight they get from telling you is why they're telling you) "NOW, this may NOT be a poe-lit-tic-cull-lee core-rect thing to say, BUT" (in practice, for some reason it's very important to linger on every single syllable of "politically correct" when playing this card, maybe even roll it out so slowly that there are extra syllables, because apparently this is still 1995 and political correctness is some hot button issue that exists in their world that they're always inadvertently stumbling into) (also they're about to say something totally shitty and stupid, guaranteed, and political correctness has nothing to do with it) "I'm not a racist, but" (they're about to say something so totally racist, and if they weren't racists themselves they'd know not to prefix anything with this phrase- it's up there with "but I have black friends" as being an obvious and transparent tell) "I'm just keeping it real" (they really want to say the quiet part out loud and think this gives them license to do so) "I'm a straight shooter and don't pull punches, and I hope everyone treats me the same way" (only ever said by the thinnest skinned people you'll ever meet) "I'm going to be brutally honest" (in practice, the people who preemptively declare themselves to be brutally honest are always in it for 100% of the brutality and 0% of the honesty.)
- bryanmgreen 7y agoSmall plug for anyone interested here: My company “Thanks For Sharing” is a straightforward app to help organizations avoid situations like these. It’s designed to encourage employees to share feedback before issues reach an unsolvable state. Organizations can collect that feedback easily and built-in analytics will show trends to identify top issues. We’re soft-launching next month... if you’re interested, shoot an email to the link in my profile and I’ll hook you up.
- Ao7bei3s 7y agoHow is this any better than Google Forms, or Glassdoor? Are employees answers anonymous? If yes: How do you deal with employees not trusting your word on this? Especially given that, since it's an app, people would presumably need to install it on their own devices? If no: How do you incentivize employees to give honest (both truthful and complete) answers? Do you have any answer to the scenario where management ignores any feedback? Do you give provide any analytics to employees that anyone is actually reading and acting on the feedback, or is this another one-way street? I'm skeptical - I don't think this is a problem that can be solved by an app -, but I wish you luck. In the unlikely case that you succeed it'll be great.
- bryanmgreen 7y agoGood questions. Hopefully you’ll be satisfied to know we’ve thought all them through. It’ll be more sophisticated than other survey options that aren’t built for this purpose. It’s solely for internal use and NOT a public reviews website (so that bad eggs can’t use rage to infect others). It will default on anonymous with the option to share your identity. Based off feedback, this seems to be the best route. As for incentivizing honest answers, we believe, again based off research, that most people will be inclined to provide that on their own, especially if they have the shelter of anonymity. There are a lot of details I don’t quite want to give away yet, but you’ll see it soon. We’re excited and learned a lot with the feedback we’ve gotten so far and are excited for the soft launch to get more data and iterate quickly.
- JamesSwift 7y agoI think in many ways it's too late at this point. Keep the conversation casual and if it happens to veer into productive territory in terms of figuring out motivations then fine, but I wouldn't be asking probing questions unprompted.
- draw_down 7y agoI think it’s ok for people to quit. It’s just a job. If they want to talk to me about why, then I’m open to that, otherwise it is their business.
- chvid 7y agoPersonally I would not say anything of substance at an exit interview. And I know many people wouldn't either. Maybe wait until 2 weeks after the person has left and invite him or her out for a beer or a coffee and then have an informal chat.
- ChuckMcM 7y agoThese conversations don't work in the same way that conversations about why you declined to hire someone don't work. They always push into negotiations between the decider and the person who didn't like the decision. They have decided to leave, that is that. If you want to avoid these things in the future, a reasonable strategy is to be really clear in setting expectations of the people who work there and the metrics by which they are evaluated. Then check in with them regularly and talk about both of those things. That will keep the employee and the manager on the same page and it will be a surprise to neither of them when things change.
- aj7 7y agoThe zeroth order term in persons leaving is usually some sort of systemic insult to them. As a manager, identify the insult. Later, your organization will have to judge whether these conditions are "worth it" or localized to the individual.
- Ididntdothis 7y agoI don’t think such a conversation would do any good. If you had had a good relationship you would probably already know what’s going on. I don’t like exit interviews where you get asked why you are leaving. These questions should have been asked much earlier. Personally I don’t think seeking such a conversation when somebody is leaving won’t do good for anybody.
- opportune 7y ago>"I don't feel like I'm a fit for <xyz> company" This is a really good general cop-out answer because it avoids creating hard-feelings or burning bridges if there was actually a more specific complaint (I hate working with that guy, my manager sucks, the work is super boring, product is stupid, pay sucks etc.) First thing to check is, where the person is next going, are they going to be making more money? If so that is likely a reason. Another reason could be that they thought their potential for advancement at your company was low, at least in comparison to somewhere else. If the employee is an engineer, it could also be that they thought their learning had slowed or they were not working on the right kind of tech they wanted to for their career. For me, these career related reasons are the most likely reasons I would jump ship. It's important to note that you shouldn't take a career-motivated jump personally. The only thing you can do is try to reorganize your company to make this less likely, by paying more, giving more opportunity for advancement, or working on/with sexier tech. If it's not about career, it's probably either interpersonal or cultural. Maybe they feel socially excluded? Maybe their manager is too distant, an asshole, or a creep? Maybe they don't want to work as long / the same hours as everyone else? Regardless, there is a very good chance you will never get a straight answer, or will get some fake, nice excuses. This type of thing requires introspection, not an exit interview.
- op00to 7y agoI would never tell the truth about why I leave a job. There’s nothing in it for me.
- muzani 7y agoTo answer the last question, management needs to regularly have one-on-ones with engineers. A lot of one-on-ones are done wrong. 80% of the talking should come from the employee not the manager. Ask them what they want, where they want their career to go, what anxieties/insecurities/discomfort they have with the company and what they're working on, what needs to be moved out of the way. To answer the first question, this is what needs to happen. Just listen to them. Don't come in with a list of questions.
- imsofuture 7y agoAre you their friend? "Hey, why are you leaving?" Not their friend? Why on earth would you think they owe you an answer to any of the questions you listed?