7 ms·

Mosuo Women

105 points by trias 7y ago

rgblambda 7y ago
A few years ago, a journalist reporting on how the Mosuo culture is being affected by the modern world found that many Mosuo men and women were abandoning their traditions in favour of modern Chinese social values. They also had to leave their villages for the larger cities to do this. The senior Mosuo women were apparently very concerned by this. I wonder what the rate of this defection is now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo#Modernity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo#Modernity
- forkLding 7y ago
  You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_l9D7tEixc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_l9D7tEixc To be truthful, most of them are leaving the villages because they see better career and living opportunities in the cities which is why they are adopting mainstream values.
faitswulff 7y ago
There's also a documentary on the Mosuo Women here, which is how I heard of the culture: https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/07/introduction_to.html https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/07/introductio...
wayoutthere 7y ago
The further we get from religious orthodoxy, the more diversity in human behavior we see arise naturally. Just like many people are wired for monogamy, at least some of us are wired for polyamory. I can absolutely see how this behavior could be a more reliable way of passing along diverse genetic material in hunter gatherer societies. Raising children was more or less communal anyway, so the identity of the father mattered way less (plus I assume many of the fathers died young). It actually carries a lot of benefits over pair bonding in these scenarios: less conflict for romantic rivals given the expectations, addresses the fact that men were far more likely to die young, and children without fathers were simply raised by the women of the village by default until the boys were old enough to hunt. Some level of genetic diversity would be provided by mixing pairs, which was likely augmented by exchanging or abducting women with other tribes. Again, monogamy is also evolutionary useful once we organize into bigger societies — if land / property ownership becomes a thing, knowing the identity of the father presents a way to ensure resources are consolidated in eldest sons to ensure there is a line of descendants with a much better chance of passing on their genes — with less conflict due to the social norms. The levers that ensure genetic material is passed on changed, and I also believe monogamy is innate for a lot of humans. There is probably also a middle group who, in the absence of social norms either way, would be okay with a polyamorous situation to various degrees. In modern society, patrilineal inheritance is no longer the norm, so the advantages of monogamy are reduced. In fact, monogamy carries some disadvantages relative to polyamory that I think aren’t obvious at first. My family are TINKs (triple income, no kids). This enables a massive jump in standard of living without having to sacrifice our passions — my husband and I have high-paying tech jobs while my wife is a social worker. Once we’re ready for kids, we have an extra parent to pitch in on household chores and child rearing. I’m genetically infertile anyway, so if my husband were monogamous with me he wouldn’t be passing along his genetic material. If he were monogamous with my wife, their earning power would be severely reduced. Bonus if you’re “50/50” bisexual — there’s no need to have to choose which half of your identity gets erased to avoid “cheating” on your partner. When one of us just isn’t in the mood for sex or is traveling for work, it’s way less of a problem. I’ve noticed a huge influx of well-off, “socially mainstream” people into the poly community in recent years, which tells me this idea is getting more popular as taboo around sex start to subside (tho most of us are closeted at work to avoid judgment). That said, it takes some pretty evolved emotional intelligence and communication skills to balance 3 sets of interpersonal relationships. It’s taught me to be able to be radically open about very personal things that initially seem difficult, but I also have to compartmentalize my life at work — we agreed my husband would be my “official” spouse at work as my wife has zero interest in networking with a bunch of techbros anyway. TLDR: evolutionary diversity is amazing in how it has provided the basis for the survival of the species across many varied types of society over a long period of human development. Polyamory is one of those where the taboo is starting to disappear.
- mkl 7y ago
  This is really interesting; I have questions. How did you end up in such a relationship? Was there a couple that added a third, or did you all start the relationship together? Who are you out to? How did that go?
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    I was basically a 50/50 bisexual, and after a failed marriage to a woman with jealousy issues, I knew I didn’t want a purely monogamous relationship so I was open about that up front. I started dating in the poly scene, and eventually ended getting close to a guy who was also dating my future wife. She and I ended up clicking as well (most people in the poly scene are bisexual to some degree), and we all eventually decided since we were hanging out and sleeping together every weekend, it may make more sense to do that under one roof. I’m out to everyone in my personal life: we tend to hang out with a lot of polyamorous people / swingers and LGBTQ people. I’m also out to a few people at work, though only in an LGBTQ diversity context (I personally lump polyamory under the category of “Queer” along with heterosexual people into “lifestyle kink”). I know a few people at work who are also in poly relationships — which is how I learned it helps to designate one spouse as the “work spouse”. When open-minded monogamous folks find out, their reaction is mostly curiosity — which is why I think an openness to polyamory is way more natural that we would think. When I mention the three income thing it really strikes a chord: when we have kids, we can have one parent stay at home full-time without sacrificing quality of life. And it’s not much more expensive than living in a monogamous pairing since we have one grocery bill, one mortgage and one set of utilities.
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  "less conflict for romantic rivals given the expectations" This assumes all men would be equally likely to get to have sex with the women. Otherwise, if the whole society has to take care of the children, but only a few men get to procreate, it just means many men working for free (like drones) to support other men's children. Of course that would be a good scenario for some members of society - the women who can choose to mate only with the most attractive men, and the few lucky men. I doubt it would automatically create a happier society, though.
j_m_b 7y ago
It's interesting that this society is matriarchal and non-monogamous. Bonobos, our closest animal relatives, are also matriarchal and non-monogamous. Chimps, on the other hand, are patriarchal and live in what are essentially harems. Is patriarchy is associated with monogamy whereas matriarchy is associated with non-monogamy?
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Chimps, on the other hand, are patriarchal and live in what are essentially harems. So, also non-monogamous. > Is patriarchy is associated with monogamy whereas matriarchy is associated with non-monogamy? Not from the evidence you've marshalled so far.
- solidsnack9000 7y ago
  Chimps actually do not live in harems. That is a more accurate description of orangutangs and gorillas. Chimps live in what could fairly be called a polyamorous society. Matriarchy is very rare in the animal kingdom. Thus it is hard to say what it is associated with. Even when species have a female dominance hierarchy, it may not be the dominant one, if you take my meaning. Observationally, female dominance hierarchies are characterized by inter-generational immobility: dominance is for the most part inherited.
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    Chimps live in what could fairly be called a polyamorous society. What about Bonobos? If Chimps are already polyamorous, maybe we need a different term for Bonobos?
    - solidsnack9000 7y ago
      Polyamorous isn't a specific enough term. Perhaps for the sake of our discussion it's enough to say that neither animal demonstrates monogamy or the kind of harem / central-female-group characteristic of sultans or lions. There's a lot of good material online about what chimp mating behaviour is actually like. Monogamy is rare in the animal kingdom, more characteristic of birds than of any other creatures.
mkl 7y ago
This culture comes up in the (excellent) BBC detective series The Fall, in the relatively negative context of Gillian Anderson's character using it to try and justify her somewhat predatory behaviour towards younger men.
- KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
  Do you have a youtube link for this?
tlear 7y ago
To me this was the most fascinating bit: “ Historically the Mosuo lived in a feudal system where a larger peasant population was controlled by a small nobility. The nobility was afraid of the peasant class gaining power. Since leadership was hereditary, the peasant class was given a matriarchal system. This prevented threats to nobility power by having the peasant class trace lineage through the female line. This system has led to numerous distinct traits among Mosuo society.“ But there is no reference.. if true this is some clever social engineering by the nobility!
- mistrial9 7y ago
  not specific to Mosuo, but matriarchal lineage was not 'replaced' by patriarchal in any simple way .. men hunted then men fought wars, and the winner of the wars declared themselves to be rulers, while "peaceful" people stuck with the old ways centered on fertility .. this happened in different parts of the world with very different peoples, over centuries
  - YUMad 7y ago
    'Old ways centered on fertility' is unscientific feminist babble pioneered by Marija Gimbutas. It has been thoroughly debunked. We were always violent. It's just that before agriculture the scope and the resources for violence were limited, so the amount of violence fell into equilibrium, mostly by hunter-gatherer groups establishing clear borders between them.
- Footpost 7y ago
  It has been argued that the raise of the Catholic Church to power had a similar reason: catholic priests don't have offspring (at least in theory) hence priests cannot form dynasties and the advantages (for trust and cooperation) of shared descent don't apply, thus priests and hence the Catholic church were less of a threat to existing nobility than other organisations that can form dynasties based on descent. (Note that the Catholic Church is the oldest still existing organisation, and was at some point in history arguably the most powerful organisation in the world.) I have no opinion on the truth or otherwise of this theory, but find it fascinating.
dmos62 7y ago
Fascinating. There's more information on the Mosuo wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo The wiki articles are not especially well written. I'd love to read a book about this.
bubblewrap 7y ago
How do the economics work, though? The article seems incomplete with respect to that. It says children are the responsibility of the women's household. Does it make a difference if a woman only has daughters (no men in the household)? They just do the same jobs as the men?
mjfl 7y ago
There is a tradeoff with these cultures - men contribute little to child rearing as a result of having less parental certainty. This is very hard for women, as they have to both subsistence farm and raise children. From that perspective, "at least the sexual double standard isn't present", is a first world problem. These women lead hard lives, directly as a result of losing the efficiency of the single partner marriage.
- Dude2025 7y ago
  Explains no developed Mosuo civilization and what awaits western civilization.
  - fiala__ 7y ago
    do I spy a Jordan P fan?
- scotty79 7y ago
  Not sure if that's the case. Women remain with their family, with their brothers and fathers, and possibly uncles. No sure if men have issue with helping their sisters and their children. I think such large family provides way more support to young mother than any single man can provide.
  - mjfl 7y ago
    The men don't farm. That's most of the work. They butcher livestock, fish, but mostly "preserve their strength for nighttime visits". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo#Role_of_men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo#Role_of_men https://jezebel.com/in-chinese-matriarchal-society-women-do-all-the-work-5303008 https://jezebel.com/in-chinese-matriarchal-society-women-do-... https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-mosuo-matriarchy-men-live-better-where-women-are-in-charge-a-627363.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-mosuo-mat...
    - scotty79 7y ago
      That doesn't mean that in more traditionally organised society they'd farm. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Maybe their traditional "men deal with animals, women deal with plants" would be kept. > That's most of the work. The wikipedia sounds like livestock and fishing is also big part of their lives.
leemailll 7y ago
If anyone has been to Li Jiang, yunnan of china, one may see some Mosuo women. When I was a backpacker almost 20 years ago, the reception of the hostel was a Mosuo girl. But I never been to Mosuo’s village near lugu lake, landslides in summer blocked the road.
forkLding 7y ago
Vice youtube video from 3 years ago on Mosuo women, a bit out-dated but good explanation of their lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_l9D7tEixc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_l9D7tEixc

105 points by trias 7y ago

A few years ago, a journalist reporting on how the Mosuo culture is being affected by the modern world found that many Mosuo men and women were abandoning their traditions in favour of modern Chinese social values. They also had to leave their villages for the larger cities to do this. The senior Mosuo women were apparently very concerned by this. I wonder what the rate of this defection is now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo#Modernity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo#Modernity

forkLding 7y ago
You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_l9D7tEixc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_l9D7tEixc To be truthful, most of them are leaving the villages because they see better career and living opportunities in the cities which is why they are adopting mainstream values.

faitswulff 7y ago

There's also a documentary on the Mosuo Women here, which is how I heard of the culture: https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/07/introduction_to.html https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/07/introductio...

wayoutthere 7y ago

The further we get from religious orthodoxy, the more diversity in human behavior we see arise naturally. Just like many people are wired for monogamy, at least some of us are wired for polyamory. I can absolutely see how this behavior could be a more reliable way of passing along diverse genetic material in hunter gatherer societies. Raising children was more or less communal anyway, so the identity of the father mattered way less (plus I assume many of the fathers died young). It actually carries a lot of benefits over pair bonding in these scenarios: less conflict for romantic rivals given the expectations, addresses the fact that men were far more likely to die young, and children without fathers were simply raised by the women of the village by default until the boys were old enough to hunt. Some level of genetic diversity would be provided by mixing pairs, which was likely augmented by exchanging or abducting women with other tribes. Again, monogamy is also evolutionary useful once we organize into bigger societies — if land / property ownership becomes a thing, knowing the identity of the father presents a way to ensure resources are consolidated in eldest sons to ensure there is a line of descendants with a much better chance of passing on their genes — with less conflict due to the social norms. The levers that ensure genetic material is passed on changed, and I also believe monogamy is innate for a lot of humans. There is probably also a middle group who, in the absence of social norms either way, would be okay with a polyamorous situation to various degrees. In modern society, patrilineal inheritance is no longer the norm, so the advantages of monogamy are reduced. In fact, monogamy carries some disadvantages relative to polyamory that I think aren’t obvious at first. My family are TINKs (triple income, no kids). This enables a massive jump in standard of living without having to sacrifice our passions — my husband and I have high-paying tech jobs while my wife is a social worker. Once we’re ready for kids, we have an extra parent to pitch in on household chores and child rearing. I’m genetically infertile anyway, so if my husband were monogamous with me he wouldn’t be passing along his genetic material. If he were monogamous with my wife, their earning power would be severely reduced. Bonus if you’re “50/50” bisexual — there’s no need to have to choose which half of your identity gets erased to avoid “cheating” on your partner. When one of us just isn’t in the mood for sex or is traveling for work, it’s way less of a problem. I’ve noticed a huge influx of well-off, “socially mainstream” people into the poly community in recent years, which tells me this idea is getting more popular as taboo around sex start to subside (tho most of us are closeted at work to avoid judgment). That said, it takes some pretty evolved emotional intelligence and communication skills to balance 3 sets of interpersonal relationships. It’s taught me to be able to be radically open about very personal things that initially seem difficult, but I also have to compartmentalize my life at work — we agreed my husband would be my “official” spouse at work as my wife has zero interest in networking with a bunch of techbros anyway. TLDR: evolutionary diversity is amazing in how it has provided the basis for the survival of the species across many varied types of society over a long period of human development. Polyamory is one of those where the taboo is starting to disappear.

mkl 7y ago
This is really interesting; I have questions. How did you end up in such a relationship? Was there a couple that added a third, or did you all start the relationship together? Who are you out to? How did that go?
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  I was basically a 50/50 bisexual, and after a failed marriage to a woman with jealousy issues, I knew I didn’t want a purely monogamous relationship so I was open about that up front. I started dating in the poly scene, and eventually ended getting close to a guy who was also dating my future wife. She and I ended up clicking as well (most people in the poly scene are bisexual to some degree), and we all eventually decided since we were hanging out and sleeping together every weekend, it may make more sense to do that under one roof. I’m out to everyone in my personal life: we tend to hang out with a lot of polyamorous people / swingers and LGBTQ people. I’m also out to a few people at work, though only in an LGBTQ diversity context (I personally lump polyamory under the category of “Queer” along with heterosexual people into “lifestyle kink”). I know a few people at work who are also in poly relationships — which is how I learned it helps to designate one spouse as the “work spouse”. When open-minded monogamous folks find out, their reaction is mostly curiosity — which is why I think an openness to polyamory is way more natural that we would think. When I mention the three income thing it really strikes a chord: when we have kids, we can have one parent stay at home full-time without sacrificing quality of life. And it’s not much more expensive than living in a monogamous pairing since we have one grocery bill, one mortgage and one set of utilities.
bubblewrap 7y ago
"less conflict for romantic rivals given the expectations" This assumes all men would be equally likely to get to have sex with the women. Otherwise, if the whole society has to take care of the children, but only a few men get to procreate, it just means many men working for free (like drones) to support other men's children. Of course that would be a good scenario for some members of society - the women who can choose to mate only with the most attractive men, and the few lucky men. I doubt it would automatically create a happier society, though.

j_m_b 7y ago

It's interesting that this society is matriarchal and non-monogamous. Bonobos, our closest animal relatives, are also matriarchal and non-monogamous. Chimps, on the other hand, are patriarchal and live in what are essentially harems. Is patriarchy is associated with monogamy whereas matriarchy is associated with non-monogamy?

dragonwriter 7y ago
> Chimps, on the other hand, are patriarchal and live in what are essentially harems. So, also non-monogamous. > Is patriarchy is associated with monogamy whereas matriarchy is associated with non-monogamy? Not from the evidence you've marshalled so far.
solidsnack9000 7y ago
Chimps actually do not live in harems. That is a more accurate description of orangutangs and gorillas. Chimps live in what could fairly be called a polyamorous society. Matriarchy is very rare in the animal kingdom. Thus it is hard to say what it is associated with. Even when species have a female dominance hierarchy, it may not be the dominant one, if you take my meaning. Observationally, female dominance hierarchies are characterized by inter-generational immobility: dominance is for the most part inherited.
- stcredzero 7y ago
  Chimps live in what could fairly be called a polyamorous society. What about Bonobos? If Chimps are already polyamorous, maybe we need a different term for Bonobos?
  - solidsnack9000 7y ago
    Polyamorous isn't a specific enough term. Perhaps for the sake of our discussion it's enough to say that neither animal demonstrates monogamy or the kind of harem / central-female-group characteristic of sultans or lions. There's a lot of good material online about what chimp mating behaviour is actually like. Monogamy is rare in the animal kingdom, more characteristic of birds than of any other creatures.

mkl 7y ago

This culture comes up in the (excellent) BBC detective series The Fall, in the relatively negative context of Gillian Anderson's character using it to try and justify her somewhat predatory behaviour towards younger men.

KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
Do you have a youtube link for this?

tlear 7y ago

To me this was the most fascinating bit: “ Historically the Mosuo lived in a feudal system where a larger peasant population was controlled by a small nobility. The nobility was afraid of the peasant class gaining power. Since leadership was hereditary, the peasant class was given a matriarchal system. This prevented threats to nobility power by having the peasant class trace lineage through the female line. This system has led to numerous distinct traits among Mosuo society.“ But there is no reference.. if true this is some clever social engineering by the nobility!

mistrial9 7y ago
not specific to Mosuo, but matriarchal lineage was not 'replaced' by patriarchal in any simple way .. men hunted then men fought wars, and the winner of the wars declared themselves to be rulers, while "peaceful" people stuck with the old ways centered on fertility .. this happened in different parts of the world with very different peoples, over centuries
- YUMad 7y ago
  'Old ways centered on fertility' is unscientific feminist babble pioneered by Marija Gimbutas. It has been thoroughly debunked. We were always violent. It's just that before agriculture the scope and the resources for violence were limited, so the amount of violence fell into equilibrium, mostly by hunter-gatherer groups establishing clear borders between them.
Footpost 7y ago
It has been argued that the raise of the Catholic Church to power had a similar reason: catholic priests don't have offspring (at least in theory) hence priests cannot form dynasties and the advantages (for trust and cooperation) of shared descent don't apply, thus priests and hence the Catholic church were less of a threat to existing nobility than other organisations that can form dynasties based on descent. (Note that the Catholic Church is the oldest still existing organisation, and was at some point in history arguably the most powerful organisation in the world.) I have no opinion on the truth or otherwise of this theory, but find it fascinating.

dmos62 7y ago

Fascinating. There's more information on the Mosuo wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo The wiki articles are not especially well written. I'd love to read a book about this.

bubblewrap 7y ago

How do the economics work, though? The article seems incomplete with respect to that. It says children are the responsibility of the women's household. Does it make a difference if a woman only has daughters (no men in the household)? They just do the same jobs as the men?

mjfl 7y ago

There is a tradeoff with these cultures - men contribute little to child rearing as a result of having less parental certainty. This is very hard for women, as they have to both subsistence farm and raise children. From that perspective, "at least the sexual double standard isn't present", is a first world problem. These women lead hard lives, directly as a result of losing the efficiency of the single partner marriage.

Dude2025 7y ago
Explains no developed Mosuo civilization and what awaits western civilization.
- fiala__ 7y ago
  do I spy a Jordan P fan?
scotty79 7y ago
Not sure if that's the case. Women remain with their family, with their brothers and fathers, and possibly uncles. No sure if men have issue with helping their sisters and their children. I think such large family provides way more support to young mother than any single man can provide.
- mjfl 7y ago
  The men don't farm. That's most of the work. They butcher livestock, fish, but mostly "preserve their strength for nighttime visits". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo#Role_of_men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo#Role_of_men https://jezebel.com/in-chinese-matriarchal-society-women-do-all-the-work-5303008 https://jezebel.com/in-chinese-matriarchal-society-women-do-... https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-mosuo-matriarchy-men-live-better-where-women-are-in-charge-a-627363.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-mosuo-mat...
  - scotty79 7y ago
    That doesn't mean that in more traditionally organised society they'd farm. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Maybe their traditional "men deal with animals, women deal with plants" would be kept. > That's most of the work. The wikipedia sounds like livestock and fishing is also big part of their lives.

leemailll 7y ago

If anyone has been to Li Jiang, yunnan of china, one may see some Mosuo women. When I was a backpacker almost 20 years ago, the reception of the hostel was a Mosuo girl. But I never been to Mosuo’s village near lugu lake, landslides in summer blocked the road.

forkLding 7y ago

Vice youtube video from 3 years ago on Mosuo women, a bit out-dated but good explanation of their lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_l9D7tEixc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_l9D7tEixc