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The New Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL2) Architecture [video]
- apotatopot 7y agoJust release Office for Linux and this wouldn't be necessary at all.
- sameoldfears 7y agoI agree. We just moved to 365. I am thinking about wiping my work win10 and just installing Linux and using all the web versions.
- tssva 7y agoI assume any compatibility issues with Chromium will soon disappear given Edge's migration to being Chromium based but how well do the web versions work with Firefox?
- markild 7y agoI've used it a bit, though not extensively, and I've seen no issues.
- isbjorn16 7y agoMSFT employee here. My workstation that I use almost exclusively is Mint. I am one of those people who are, to put it politely, not keen on Google's ad and data sponge tentacles in every last item on the planet, and so I use Firefox as my primary browser. O365 has yet to show me many problems with the O365 suite. The only problem I do have is a complete and utter lack of desktop notifications. I'm late to meetings a lot. For someone who values punctuality, it's a major flaw in my view. We also use Teams a lot, and there the Firefox + Linux story is significantly worse. You lose all teleconference capabilities - and that's true for Chrome or Chromium as well. The chat functionality is acceptable and weirdly, the notifications on Teams work without any problems. Someone on that team needs to show the O365 team how to do it. I have a VM for when I absolutely have to do something in Windows. For everything else, there's ~~mastercard~~ linux.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoI put all notifications on my mobile device, it works well. A web app should be able to send OS notifications however, e.g. slack does on my copy of Ubuntu. Believe I had to enable permission once.
- isbjorn16 7y agoThat's a good idea; it probably wouldn't matter for me since my phone is muted all day long and I only use my phone if I'm on a coffee quest, but most people are a lot more attached to their phones than I am
- mixmastamyk 7y agoI don't mute mine but put it in airplane mode, so no interruptions that I didn't program. Also strobes the flash when an alarm goes off.
- emptyfile 7y agoI disagree, when I finally got the option of running a Postgresql server in WSL in Windows 10, I uninstalled Linux and never look back. Linux on desktop is a bad joke.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoPostgres has been working on Windows forever, I used it from 2007 or so. Also, my Ubuntu Mate has been working flawlessly on the desktop for 5 years, 10+ if you count the gnome2 days. No privacy invasion or helpful ads either.
- SubiculumCode 7y agoFunny. I think my Mate Desktop works pretty damn well.
- scardine 7y agoWhile all my servers are Linux, on the Desktop it is my last choice. Interesting enough I used to love customizing the window manager to death but I'm older now and I just want something that is consistent and works out of the box. Macs work really well out of the box but with some tweaks WSL makes Windows a quite decent development workstation. Currently I'm using Windows + WSL and I'm quite satisfied. Looks like with the new version some of the tweaks to use docker are not necessary anymore. Great work, Microsoft, keep the pace.
- CoolGuySteve 7y agoI have the same motivation as you, I just want shit that works. But Windows is the absolute last place I find that. All I get are updates that break my setup, constant inane interruptions from Cortana or the desktop or wherever, advertisement tiles in the fucking start menu, forced updates that can't be done in the background, Windows Activation disappearing after hardware upgrades, etc. I feel like I'm in the Stepford Wives with all these people coming out of the woodwork to proclaim how majestic the Windows experience is. A few years back I switched from Mac to Ubuntu for the faster, cheaper, diverse hardware and I have to say, it's pretty much perfect in the "Just Works" department on the 3 laptops + 2 desktops I've installed it on. But I'm also one of those people that actually liked Unity so I don't have to mess with it much after installing.
- scardine 7y agoInteresting, may be I have some setting that prevents Cortana from annoying me and prevents windows from placing ads on the start menu. Not that I use the start menu often, generally I just hit the search box and start typing the name of the app I want (if it is not pinned to the task bar already). I'm using Windows 10 Pro (Insider Preview fast track) and not seeing the annoyances you are experiencing.
- phishfi 7y agoIn my experience, the ads are only present at initial setup. Once you remove the shortcuts (and disable suggested apps), they don't show up again.
- kevingadd 7y agoHow does Office for Linux solve the problem of doing Linux development or using Linux applications on Windows?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- vetinari 7y agoIt solves it by not needing Windows at all. You can then do Linux development and use Linux applications on Linux.
- logicchains 7y agoHow's Office for Linux going to help my laptop reliably wake from hibernation?
- mbrumlow 7y agoWhat hardware do you use? I use Linux exclusively on all my systems, and have not had any problems at all. So I always wonder what hardware is being used that does not work... For my laptops I use Think pads and various Dell systems. The only thing I always try to make sure when buying a laptop though is it is a Intel CPU with integrated inlet GPU -- just doing that and I have never really had any problems. In any case, I am looking for the exact model you are using that has the problem -- so I can maybe find a cheap one on ebay and mess around with it.
- nogridbag 7y agoI believe Linux does not support the "modern standby" sleep state: S0 which allows PCs to behave like your smartphone. It's probably more of a problem with the hardware manufacturers than Linux, but regardless the end result is that it only works on Windows. For example, my Surface Book, when it's working, resumes instantly.
- v_lisivka 7y agoIt looks like you right: sleeping in S0 is not supported by Linux, only Windows does this: ACPI Sleep States (S0 - S5) •S0: Normal Powered-On state •S1 Standby •S2: Not supported •S3 Suspend to Ram •S4 Suspend to Disk
- logicchains 7y agoDell XPS with Fedora (work laptop). I don't think it's specific to the model because my colleagues don't all have the same model but most have the same problem.
- sk0g 7y agoThat's incredibly short sighted, isn't it? I like to record audio, and use DAWs and plugins/ VSTs. What about artists who use graphic design or video editing programs? Is your use case the only valid one, for whatever reason?
- erikbye 7y agoHave you tried Bitwig on Linux?
- sk0g 7y agoHaven't heard of it, no. Looks like a DAW, right? DAWs aren't really the problem - Reaper is on Linux as well, and it's perfectly serviceable. The issue is proprietary software like Helix Native/ HX Edit, and VSTs that have tough DRMs would be borderline impossible to set up. I assume. I kinda gave up on Linux when I got my XPS 15 though, because there just didn't seem to be a way to have good switchable graphics without reboots, because that's just dumb and impractical, decent battery life, and the OS not freezing every time the touch screen was activate (mainly an issue with Ubuntu and derivatives, for whatever reason). Oh and the fingerprint sensor wouldn't work. Per display scaling seemed finicky in some desktop environments, etc. Might try it again soon with Pop_os! or something of that sort, but I need this to be a stable machine for work, so dunno :|
- alex7o 7y agoRepaer also works natively even on a Raspberry Pi.
- seanc 7y agoI've been using Ubuntu on my primary work laptop for years now, and the only real sticking point is video conferencing. Skype for Business and Webex barely work. Google hangouts is n't bad, but often runs into audio trouble with pulse and alsa. And the real trouble is that you can't just go find the one that works. If your co-workers all use webex then you're stuck.
- Tepix 7y agoAfter using Linux on the desktop for around two decades, I'm forced to use Windows 10 since a few months. WSL is what makes it somewhat bearable. I look forward to Windows Terminal and WSL2.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- hs86 7y agoThis seems to run on a VM that dynamically adjusts its RAM size according to the current usage. Does a VM like this have any kind of file cache?
- monocasa 7y agoI'm pretty sure the Linux side owns it's own FS cache. The whole point of this release is just to run a real Linux kernel in a VM in order to increase FS perf. I'm not sure how you do that and divorce it from the Linux kernel's FS cache.
- benou 7y agoThis is already supported in HyperV VM, and the concept is old: it is called ballooning. Basically a driver in the Linux guest (hv_balloon for HyperV, but you have the same things for KVM, VMWare etc.) can artificially "inflates" its memory use when detecting too much unused memory and give it back to the host. When the guest needs more memory, the balloon driver will give the memory back. Couple with hotplug memory support and things can be pretty dynamic. Not sure if they do something more sophisticated for WSL2 though.
- xfer 7y agoThis way ZOL also works on windows. Might make me switch to windows where i occasionally play windows only games.
- jchw 7y agoI was initially very excited for WSL2, but I do worry it will require Hyper-V to be enabled. I use VMWare Workstation and it’s a true pain to switch Hyper-V on and off. Also, I cant help but worry that this will somehow be a downgrade in some way... will it be just as integrated? Windows Firewall worked on WSL Pico processes for example.
- OkGoDoIt 7y agoI hate the way HyperV messes up networking with its virtual network adapters. It gets complicated with a VPN or LTE connection really quickly. Maybe I’m just doing it wrong, but I’ve never found networking to work properly on a machine with HyperV enabled. Switching to a virtualization model feels like a step backwards. If I wanted a virtualized Linux on Windows, I’d run a virtual Linux on Windows. WSL is special because it’s a middle ground.
- zamadatix 7y agoFor PC use you should use the default NAT switch that way your adapters stay physical.
- skrebbel 7y agoif it needs hyper-v, then what's the point? how is it fundamentally different from just running ubuntu in virtualbox with a shared network drive, then? except where the terminal window is?
- orf 7y agoThe tight integration of course. And not having to use Virtualbox.
- anon4242 7y agoWell, you won't be able to use Virtualbox anymore.. at least for 64 bit OSes :(
- chrisdfrey 7y ago
- brianpgordon 7y agoAre there any plans to support graphical guest applications running in a native Windows window, like VMWare Fusion? Their client/server VS Code demo where only the UI runs in Windows seems really bizarre to me. Why not just run X? I suppose you could pipe X over SSH but it would be nice to get built-in support without the hassle or performance penalty.
- Scarbutt 7y agoTheir equivalent of vmware fusion is hyperv.
- phishfi 7y agoIs it? I didn't think Hyper-V allowed separated windows. The only resource I've found that does this effectively is X410.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoCygwin Xorg does this.
- 1wd 7y agoI'm surprised, is integrating a Linux kernel with Windows not a GPL violation? Is this a "mere aggregation" situation? Are the Linux kernel and other closed source Windows code at no point linked, or exchanging complex internal data structures?
- ezoe 7y agoI was thinking about this issue on binary blob driver like nvidia's. GPL is a clever hack of copyright law. It grant derivative works a copyright permission under the condition of accepting the same license. Now, Windows kernel and Nvidia's binary blob driver exist without relying on Linux kernel at all. How could they be considered as a derivative work in terms of copyright law? Since GPLv2 relies on copyright law, it has no effect on situation where copyright law doesn't allow exclusive right. For Nvidia's driver, Nvidia released a thin shim wrapper code as GPL which interface between Linux API and Nvidia binary blob driver API. But the core Nvidia binary blob driver existed independently from Linux kernel, it can't be a derivative work of Linux kernel. For WSL2 case, Microsoft may take the same approach. They may release a thin shim wrapper which interface Linux kernel and Windows as GPL. But Windows kernel itself cannot be a derivative work of Linux kernel if it's separated well. At least, that's my conclusion. I'm not a lawyer.
- xorcist 7y ago> But the core Nvidia binary blob driver existed independently from Linux kernel, it can't be a derivative work of Linux kernel. Many kernel developers are of a different opinion, and consider Nvidia in breach of their license. The fact that nobody has sued does not mean that they are in the clear. Don't consider the use of a thin shim to be some sort of license firewall. Anyone other than a select few multinationals probably shouldn't consider legal disagreements with their partners a valid business strategy.
- rolleiflex 7y agoIt’s just another app that runs on Windows. They’re moving from a white-box implementation written by Microsoft of Linux kernel with no GPL code, to just shipping the thing in a VM and be done with it. I can’t say I blame them, WSL always had its rough edges and it breaks in unexpected ways.
- monocasa 7y agoSounds like Docker for Mac for Windows. Might have some of the same shared FS consistency issues from running two full kernels with their own FS caching hierarchies.
- unilynx 7y agoHere's to hoping Docker for Windows will rebase on WSL2 and make the same jump in quality as Docker for Mac did when they dropped virtualbox
- eatonphil 7y agoSwitched to Windows from Linux on my work laptop 6 months ago. First-class support for Zoom, Office, screen-sharing, presenting, etc. is good. General terminal-based development is not fantastic, but WSL made it possible at all. I can run all but my most Linux-specific programs (e.g. dependent on procfs). Aside from not have some Linux pseudo-filesystems the bigger issue has been the speed of file operations. I dread having to run `dep ensure` and `yarn install`. Why not just Hyper-V? Every few weeks I try to figure out how to set up a static IP but I cannot for the life of me. So it takes 1-2 minutes every time I want to reconnect because not only does it get a dynamic IP by default, it is reset every day or so. Need to go into the VM via Hyper-V, get the current IP address, reset /etc/hosts within WSL, reset /etc/hosts within Windows, SSH into VM within WSL. It drives me nuts. Really looking forward to WSL2 for faster file operations and being able to run all my programs.
- benou 7y agoCount me in. Regarding the networking issue, I sort of solved it by using VMBus between my VM and Windows. Shameless plug: https://github.com/bganne/hvnc https://github.com/bganne/hvnc
- billziss 7y agoAlthough many people seem to be receiving the WSL2 news well, I am one of the few that feels that we will be missing something important with this new direction. WSL1 was pushing the boundaries of OS research: - a method for having multiple syscall interfaces in a mainstream OS - processes in WSL1 were real NT processes (even if lacking some of the NTOS environment) - direct integration with the rest of the OS without an awkward VM separation layer. In comparison WSL2 is basically an optimized VM with some fancy guest additions. Color me underwhelmed. I understand the argument that WSL2 is faster than WSL1 in file system operations. I expect this will only be true for their root file system ("VolFs") and that performance will remain same or suffer for Windows drives ("DrvFs"). I am certain that they could fix "VolFs" performance by moving the file system of NTFS and into a raw disk partition or VHD. (Note: I write file systems both in and out of kernel.) Finally WSL2 will be distributed with Windows which raises some licensing questions (IANAL) if not in the letter of the GPL license at least in spirit. I write GPL'ed software myself and I would be somewhat miffed if I saw my software used in a similar manner (i.e. "via a VM", but still distributed with non-GPL code).
- rjsw 7y agoMultiple syscall interfaces is how Linux emulation has been done in the BSD world for many years.
- billziss 7y agoYes, I am aware of the Linux emulation in FreeBSD and elsewhere.
- rjsw 7y agoHow is it pushing the boundaries of OS research then ?
- billziss 7y agoWhich systems do you think are more similar: Windows and Linux or FreeBSD and Linux? Presenting a Linux syscall interface on top of Windows is a hard task. The systems have fundamentally different approaches to many OS functionalities. In general you cannot just 1:1 map syscalls between the two. I am very familiar with the Windows kernel and fairly familiar with the Linux kernel and I am 100% convinced of this. This is not to minimize the FreeBSD achievement. However I expect that mapping from Linux to FreeBSD and back would be an easier task. I should note here that I only know generalities about the FreeBSD kernel and would be willing to be educated if that is not the case and done in good faith.
- packet_nerd 7y agoIt'd be awesome if nmap and other network tools work in WSL2.
- pdonis 7y agoWhy would I want to run a proprietary, closed-source implementation of what is supposed to be an open source operating system?
- WalterGR 7y agoYou personally? Hard to say since we don’t know your needs. But other people seem to have a reason, based on the comments here and in every submission about WSL. What are your needs?
- kristianp 7y agoBecause things like sleep and hibernate work on Windows?
- fesoliveira 7y agoTheir kernel implementation will actually be open source and hosted on Github in the close future.
- Narishma 7y agoSince it uses Hyper-V, does that mean it won't work anymore on the Home editions of Windows 10?
- arcboii92 7y agoProbably not. But you can get legit Win 10 Pro keys from ebay for like $5
- Narishma 7y agoYeah, I'd rather pay 0$ and use VirtualBox or VMWare instead.
- adolfojp 7y agoI asked @craigaloewen that question on reddit and he said the following: "It'll be available on all SKUs that run WSL currently including windows home!"
- jpeeler 7y agoI'd be interested to see a Microsoft backed Wayland implementation to support GUI apps. Basically very similar to how Chrome OS has done it with Crostini. If you're interested too vote here: https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-console-windows-subsystem-for-l/suggestions/16524991-wsl-wayland-display-manger-support-may-be-easie https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-con...
- taf2 7y agoWhy isn’t windows just built on Linux at this point are there reasons for MS to maintain their own kernel? There must be people inside of MS asking this just like how edge is now built on chromium...
- arcboii92 7y agoThat's all cool, but I just learned you can type an exe into Windows Explorer's address bar to open it in the current directory. MIND BLOWN.
- yarg 7y agoI'd really like for this to support accelerated graphics - unfortunately I imagine that would require a comprehensive solution to GPU virtualisation at the DirectX level, which would at least need to be implemented in drivers - if not also supported at the hardware level. Without that, then the main reason that I'd even be using the subsystem - GPU compute - is unavailable, and I'll need to actually boot into Linux if I want to do anything useful.