7 ms·

I think damaging families is the point of this policy.

Agustus 7y ago
The point of this policy is to identify real familial relations with those crossing the border. At the border there are instances of individuals using children to get special preference. The proposed idea will mitigate this issue.
- a_random_name 7y ago
  This makes a lot of presumptuous about the intention of the adults here. Do you know that these are not something similar to adoptive parents?!
- mchristen 7y ago
  Can you define "real familial relations" purely by DNA? I don't think so, what about adoptions or surrogates? This just seems like a policy that can be used to discriminate against people who don't fit a chosen definition of "family".
  - creaghpatr 7y ago
    Or it can be used to expedite the clearance of real families instead of subjecting everyone to the same questioning methods.
    - thex10 7y ago
      > real families That's... still discriminating against people who don't fit a chosen definition of "family"
      - mc32 7y ago
        But then they won’t be claiming “this is my daughter/son”... They’re trying to filter against bogus claims.
        roywiggins 7y ago
        And people with adoptive children will say what, exactly?
        mc32 7y ago
        Presumably they can provide papers to the effect. Just as if I were to claim asylum in any other place. Also, I’m sure they have rates of these things and if it starts getting higher than the norm it could prompt more scrutiny.
        roywiggins 7y ago
        People fleeing for their lives may not have access to paperwork. In fact, the authorities denying people access to paperwork- such as birth records and legal status- is almost certainly evidence for approving an asylum claim in the first place.
        mc32 7y ago
        Do you think the instances “fleeing” is the bulk of the cases? Mostly it’s economic migrants. We know if they were fleeing they could just stay in Mexico or if not from The Americas, in a neighboring country. Also, in many of those countries there isn’t a tradition of adoption, so that would be pretty rare.
        roywiggins 7y ago
        It's not that uncommon. > Many of the migrants are asylum seekers fleeing political violence in their countries of origin, especially Congo and Cameroon. Many of the Congolese lived for years in Angola, where they learned enough Portuguese to get by in Spanish. Angola last year expelled more than 300,000 Congolese refugees. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/hundreds-of-africans-tried-to-reach-the-united-states-now-theyre-stuck-in-mexico/2019/04/16/6ebb7b48-5fa4-11e9-bf24-db4b9fb62aa2_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/hundreds-o...
- klyrs 7y ago
  Good to know that adoptions aren't "real." So if a kid's parent dies and they're living with an aunt, that's not "real" and the government is free to tear the child's remaining family away and replace it with rape and imprisonment. Way to mitigate the issue. Damn the consequences.
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    adoptions have a paper trail.
    - sszz 7y ago
      Not a given, particularly for people fleeing countries in crisis, disarray, or violent turmoil. Or if a parent died during the migration, etc.
      - LoSboccacc 7y ago
        > if a parent died during the migration so if a parent dies any rando in the caravan can claim the child and get all the attached benefits? gee, wonder if that kind of reward would have side effects on the safety of migrants with children.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        pjc50 7y ago
        What "benefits" are you talking about?
        mfatica 7y ago
        Migrants at the border are handled with different policies if they arrive with children rather than alone
    - astazangasta 7y ago
- sszz 7y ago
  It would mitigate this issue to an extent, but also introduces new challenges (for instance and as pointed to elsewhere: dealing with officially/unofficially adopted children). I'm not sure if there are published numbers on what fraction of adult asylum seekers are attempting to use children in this way, but the preoccupation with "solving" this particular issue demonstrates that either (a) that fraction is disturbingly high or (b) we'd like to make the process even more complicated for no particularly good reason. The trend of every policy along the border seems to suggest that (b) is more likely, which is upsetting.
creaghpatr 7y ago
It's to prevent "Child Recycling" which is trafficking children across the border to claim asylum then trafficking them back to accompany a new group of migrants.
- gcb0 7y ago
  read the comment you replied to again. hint: it won't be effective at that.
- empath75 7y ago
  Do you think that actually happens.
  - okcando 7y ago
    It's been my experience that anything that can be conceived of does or will actually happen but I'd be surprised if this were a common occurrence. On the other hand, we are talking about desperate people frequently traveling under the guidance of notoriously callous border traffickers so what do I know...
    - asveikau 7y ago
      I have no data, but I'd wager it's way more common to see any of the following: adoption, people raised by non-blood relatives, paternity not being what was thought -- all while being innocent, law abiding people.
  - drak0n1c 7y ago
    > From October 2017 to February 2018, there was a 315 percent increase in the number of cases of adults with minors fraudulently posing as “family units” to gain entry.
    - empath75 7y ago
      So does that mean it was 5 cases and now it’s 21?
dang 7y ago
Would you mind reviewing the site guidelines and following them here? They include: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." We're trying to avoid flamewars on Hacker News, because they're predictable, therefore uninteresting, therefore off topic (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). Plus they bring out meanness and dumbness in people and get worse as they go along.

The point of this policy is to identify real familial relations with those crossing the border. At the border there are instances of individuals using children to get special preference. The proposed idea will mitigate this issue.

a_random_name 7y ago
This makes a lot of presumptuous about the intention of the adults here. Do you know that these are not something similar to adoptive parents?!
mchristen 7y ago
Can you define "real familial relations" purely by DNA? I don't think so, what about adoptions or surrogates? This just seems like a policy that can be used to discriminate against people who don't fit a chosen definition of "family".
- creaghpatr 7y ago
  Or it can be used to expedite the clearance of real families instead of subjecting everyone to the same questioning methods.
  - thex10 7y ago
    > real families That's... still discriminating against people who don't fit a chosen definition of "family"
    - mc32 7y ago
      But then they won’t be claiming “this is my daughter/son”... They’re trying to filter against bogus claims.
      - roywiggins 7y ago
        And people with adoptive children will say what, exactly?
        mc32 7y ago
        Presumably they can provide papers to the effect. Just as if I were to claim asylum in any other place. Also, I’m sure they have rates of these things and if it starts getting higher than the norm it could prompt more scrutiny.
        roywiggins 7y ago
        People fleeing for their lives may not have access to paperwork. In fact, the authorities denying people access to paperwork- such as birth records and legal status- is almost certainly evidence for approving an asylum claim in the first place.
        mc32 7y ago
        Do you think the instances “fleeing” is the bulk of the cases? Mostly it’s economic migrants. We know if they were fleeing they could just stay in Mexico or if not from The Americas, in a neighboring country. Also, in many of those countries there isn’t a tradition of adoption, so that would be pretty rare.
        roywiggins 7y ago
        It's not that uncommon. > Many of the migrants are asylum seekers fleeing political violence in their countries of origin, especially Congo and Cameroon. Many of the Congolese lived for years in Angola, where they learned enough Portuguese to get by in Spanish. Angola last year expelled more than 300,000 Congolese refugees. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/hundreds-of-africans-tried-to-reach-the-united-states-now-theyre-stuck-in-mexico/2019/04/16/6ebb7b48-5fa4-11e9-bf24-db4b9fb62aa2_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/hundreds-o...
klyrs 7y ago
Good to know that adoptions aren't "real." So if a kid's parent dies and they're living with an aunt, that's not "real" and the government is free to tear the child's remaining family away and replace it with rape and imprisonment. Way to mitigate the issue. Damn the consequences.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  adoptions have a paper trail.
  - sszz 7y ago
    Not a given, particularly for people fleeing countries in crisis, disarray, or violent turmoil. Or if a parent died during the migration, etc.
    - LoSboccacc 7y ago
      > if a parent died during the migration so if a parent dies any rando in the caravan can claim the child and get all the attached benefits? gee, wonder if that kind of reward would have side effects on the safety of migrants with children.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - pjc50 7y ago
        What "benefits" are you talking about?
        mfatica 7y ago
        Migrants at the border are handled with different policies if they arrive with children rather than alone
  - astazangasta 7y ago
sszz 7y ago
It would mitigate this issue to an extent, but also introduces new challenges (for instance and as pointed to elsewhere: dealing with officially/unofficially adopted children). I'm not sure if there are published numbers on what fraction of adult asylum seekers are attempting to use children in this way, but the preoccupation with "solving" this particular issue demonstrates that either (a) that fraction is disturbingly high or (b) we'd like to make the process even more complicated for no particularly good reason. The trend of every policy along the border seems to suggest that (b) is more likely, which is upsetting.

creaghpatr 7y ago

It's to prevent "Child Recycling" which is trafficking children across the border to claim asylum then trafficking them back to accompany a new group of migrants.

gcb0 7y ago
read the comment you replied to again. hint: it won't be effective at that.
empath75 7y ago
Do you think that actually happens.
- okcando 7y ago
  It's been my experience that anything that can be conceived of does or will actually happen but I'd be surprised if this were a common occurrence. On the other hand, we are talking about desperate people frequently traveling under the guidance of notoriously callous border traffickers so what do I know...
  - asveikau 7y ago
    I have no data, but I'd wager it's way more common to see any of the following: adoption, people raised by non-blood relatives, paternity not being what was thought -- all while being innocent, law abiding people.
- drak0n1c 7y ago
  > From October 2017 to February 2018, there was a 315 percent increase in the number of cases of adults with minors fraudulently posing as “family units” to gain entry.
  - empath75 7y ago
    So does that mean it was 5 cases and now it’s 21?

dang 7y ago

Would you mind reviewing the site guidelines and following them here? They include: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." We're trying to avoid flamewars on Hacker News, because they're predictable, therefore uninteresting, therefore off topic (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). Plus they bring out meanness and dumbness in people and get worse as they go along.