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Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

147 points by abeger 7y ago

heinrich5991 7y ago
The donation graph is misleading IMO, it doesn't start at 0 on the y axis.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
swozey 7y ago
I can't even imagine the stress from public comments that comes from working on an open source operating system. I don't use Mint but I'm hugely sympathetic to the devs who have to deal with the backlash from, of all things, a logo and website design change that they likely had little to no involvement with.
- axaxs 7y ago
  I worked for a while on a distro. The issue tracker is stressful for two main reasons. One, a lot of esoteric bugs that are hardware dependent. It's so frustrating to ask for help in testing to be ghosted or told 'no.' People don't seem to understand that as a small team, you don't have and won't buy all the hardware choices that exist to work on something for free. The second stressor are people being adament and pushy about what they want, and not bugs at all. Go build your own distro, guys. I found myself being a real dick to some people, so stepped away as it wasn't worth the stress, and I didn't want to tarnish the reputation of others who worked on the project.
  - skocznymroczny 7y ago
    > People don't seem to understand that as a small team, you don't have and won't buy all the hardware choices that exist to work on something for free. that's why there shouldn't be as many distros. With fewer distros, it would be easier to test them on various configurations. Also it would make sure any fixes for specific hardware are used more widely, rather than ending up a patch in a single distro.
    - Mikeb85 7y ago
      I don't think there should be fewer distros, but I personally have mostly stuck to the big ones, as they generally have the fewest issues.
    - axaxs 7y ago
      I see your point... but realize that 99 percent of such bugs are upstream. So it's a matter of locking packages, or adding hacky things to a shell script that runs at install time. In a lot of way, it feels at times a distro maintainer is a secretary between the end user and upstream packages, since we end up opening the bugs.
    - magduf 7y ago
      Yeah, but much of the reason I think there's as much volunteer involvement as there is is because distros are different, and the volunteers are happier to contribute their time to something they believe in. If you have fewer distributions, that means they're going to make design choices more people won't like, which means volunteers aren't going to be as interested in contributing. You can't please all the people all the time, remember. A small number of distros will equate to making lots of compromises, so no one will be happy. This works for corporate products, because people are getting paid to work on something they don't care much about, but it doesn't work for a volunteer project. Just as an example: if I were working on, say, Linux Mint, but then all the distro maintainers decided to have a giant meeting and in it they decided we really only need one Linux distro, CentOS, I'd just quit. There's no way in hell I'd want to work on CentOS of all things. I can find more enjoyable ways of spending my free time. I'm sure you'll find this with anything that people are passionate about: if you try to get them to redirect their energy to something "boring", they're not going to do it.
- TheCondor 7y ago
  Opensource anything... It’s not completely thankless, but the thanks seem to be mostly direct and private and then you face public ridicule for errors, bugs, missteps or just when people have different aesthetics or taste and don’t like your project. There are so many “behind the scenes” sorts of projects too, stuff that matters and isn’t quite as visible to the common end user. I think of OpenSSL, the big security hole got more marketing and PR than the project ever did with “heart bleed.” Then some of the comments during the libressl review were very harsh. They did their thing in anonymity for decades, got used by everything and then took a public beating; clearly it depends on where the developers’ hearts are when that happened, maybe it wasn't so bad, it felt bad to watch. With something like mint, just about everything is subjective. There are going to be a lot of haters just because of opinion.
  - fjp 7y ago
    Almost every python package that I've used seems to have Github "issues" opened where someone asks "Why even do this when there's [insert similar but different thing]". Who cares? Pip uninstall it if it isn't what you want? Fork it if you want something slightly different? Or contribute to a productive discussion about the direction of the project? Do SOMETHING positive.
- bregma 7y ago
  I worked as a front line developer at a major Linux distro known for making some unpopular decisions. I came to the position knowing full well how 10% of all people out there are loudmouth asscracks . People without experience or inside knowledge who think they know better than those with, and expect to have only their own personal demands met at the expense of everyone else probably because they are getting something for free. As long as he approaches the job knowing he is going to see some of the most wretched examples of scum and villainy, the dude can abide with grace. Just don't take it personally.
  - jcastro 7y ago
    Heya bregma, good to see you! We had a Code of Conduct we could enforce on at least official properties to make sure people behave, though I wasn't able to find one for Mint. It doesn't stop if completely, but at least it's nice to be able to do your job without too much flaming. Reddit or blogs might be nuts, but at least the work mailing lists and bug trackers were relatively ok.
    - bregma 7y ago
      jcastro! The flaming is the required price for not spending all your time in an echo chamber and for leaving your comfort zone. And gosh, if you really want flaming, just mention a Code of Conduct. Even a CLA doesn't bring the worst of the dreck out like a CoC does.
doktrin 7y ago
> Remember that these folks are pouring all of their energy into a free product, and remember that they're sensitive to how you perceive it. I hope I live to see the day when the internet stops bringing out the worst in us. The Linux community might not be as vitriolic as cesspools like gaming, but some days it really isn't that far off.
- toastking 7y ago
  I think part of it was the tone set by Linus. He had an attitude that on the surface seemed to be perfectionism but was really just abusive. It's good that he stepped back and rethought how we dealt with people.
- z2 7y ago
  As someone who has published a free app for fun, I've learned that due to any mix of entitlement and ignorance, anything you put out there can make some people emotionally angry. I'm still learning how to move on and accept that this is OK, for them and for me.
  - Insanity 7y ago
    Sorry you had to go through that! I tend to ignore the negative feedback, and reply to the postive feedback (with a simple thank you or something of the likes). If you did something for fun, it doesn't really matter what people think. Just keep doing stuff for fun, and kudos for putting it out there for others to enjoy! Even if you get some people who don't like it, remember you did not do it for them :-)
    - z2 7y ago
      Thank you! Overall it has been a positive experience :) This is my first time dealing with 'the public' and I'm likely overdue for the lesson that one can never (and shouldn't) make everybody happy.
  - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
    I assume that human's stupidity is infinite. It helps a lot.
UweSchmidt 7y ago
Now that I'm no longer super young, I am very much aware of the precious time every day where I can do valuable, creative work (outside work). From this subjective point of view I question if many open soure projects are truly worth it. Valuable activities would 1. improve relevant, marketable skills 2. bring joy 3. help improve the world 4. make some money It appears that many activities around maintaining a linux distro are mundane chores, compared to the learning process of, say, studying security issues deep inside the kernel. It certainly does not bring joy as reliable and immediate as, say, switching off the computer and going outside for some pickup basketball, and there are already plenty of linux distros out there, with marginal differences and little impact general progress. Nothing needs to be said regarding my #4. So I will offer my unsolicited opintion: Life is short, focus your effort on things that are really worth it.
dessant 7y ago
> We can get demotivated, uncertain, depressed even by negative reactions or interactions, and it can lead to developers stepping away from the project, taking a break or even leaving for good. It truly is a struggle. I have a couple of projects with moderate numbers of users, and between the "it doesn't work" private messages (not even mentioning which project) and some abusive and entitled users, I do wonder sometimes what would be the best way to protect ourselves as maintainers of open source projects. There are of course sensible users whom I truly appreciate, though encouraging messages are easily drowned out by low quality support requests and negative interactions. We may step away for a while or cut off communication channels in order to heal, but I don't see a real solution to this problem, other than to delegate tasks so that abuse is spread out evenly between a team of maintainers.
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  Add a don't be a dick clause to the license and revoke the keys of anyone who is.
  - dessant 7y ago
    That can be cathartic, but normalizing hostility towards users will ultimately hurt both you and your project. There are no winners in this context once you decide to draw your weapon.
    - otikik 7y ago
      On the other hand, letting people use the project forums to vent, or to attack others users, or attempting to hoard the devs' attention, will create its own set of problems. I'd say 1 or 2 polite warnings are due (everyone can have a bad day). If the misbehavior continues, take out the banhammer. Use it judiciously but decisively.
    - Goronmon 7y ago
      That can be cathartic, but normalizing hostility towards users will ultimately hurt both you and your project. Does it? In ways that are worse than what the devs are dealing with as mentioned in the OP? That sounds like a pretty big assumption to me.
obrisintor 7y ago
As much as I think that Linux Mint is a distribution with great potential, I don't want to support something that blatantly states that they don't want my help or the help of anyone who supports Israel. http://abriefhistory.org/?p=774 http://abriefhistory.org/?p=774
- akoncius 7y ago
  which is fine I think. you are entitled to your own opinion/views, as they are too.
Townley 7y ago
> Beyond that, keep in mind that while donations keep Linux Mint and other distributions afloat, the occasional message of appreciation can be encouraging, and at times personally invaluable. Exactly. This issue isn't just something that "maintainers deal with"; it's also something that "users can help with". The next time you install a library that makes your life easier, write someone an email. Star the project on GitHub. Open up a "TODO: Keep Being Awesome" ticket where others can show their gratitude. Even if you don't have the skills or bandwidth to contribute to a project's development, you can contribute to its morale.
- dhimes 7y ago
  Great advice.
- Bartweiss 7y ago
  Thanks for this. I'm not sure I've ever done it with devs I don't know, but I absolutely should - especially for small projects. Come to think of it, there's one random package that quietly solved the most mindbending pdf issues I've ever faced... Sounds like a good first person to drop a thank you note to!
bitL 7y ago
To all Mint developers: THANK YOU!!! I use Mint for over 5 years as my main OS and it allowed me to make a seamless transition from Windows/macOS to Linux for everyday tasks, on high-end hardware with multiple HiDPI monitors and including games with recent Steam updates (thanks to Ubuntu + Valve as well!). I can't imagine being stuck with Windows 10/macOS these days.
- Chirael 7y ago
  I've been using it for 2-3 years now on a Chromebook I converted to dual-boot with one of the options being Linux Mint on a USB. I don't use it every day but I do use it probably one a week for something vital. So I want to second the Thank You to the Mint developers!
- JudgeWapner 7y ago
  THANK YOU. I used it for 7 years, because I was sick of constantly tending to my Gentoo install. I used LM because it Just Worked. I never had to think about the OS, I could just focus on my work. The biggest bug I had in 7 years of using it was my /boot partition filling up because new kernel installs wouldn't delete the old kernels/initrd.img. Other than that, it just worked. Thank you
  - saikatsg 7y ago
    What do you use now, looks like you don't use LM any more ;)
    - JudgeWapner 7y ago
      I use Arch. Kind of complex reasons, I guess. It wasn't that LM was deficient in any way, just figured it was time to really dig in and understand what my OS was doing. Arch has the best documentation, so I decided to switch to it.
      - O1111OOO 7y ago
        > Arch has the best documentation, so I decided to switch to it. Not an Arch user but their documentation is amazing (small sample[0]). I toyed with FreeBSD years ago and have never forgotten just how well documented the entire system was too[1]. Well-written documentation (with plenty of real world examples) is severely underappreciated in modern tech. It's not only empowering but it's just plain fun getting under the hood. [0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications [1] https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/consoles.html https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/c...
AdmiralAsshat 7y ago
Linux Mint seems to take a fairly regular beating from the Linux community at large, and I'm not sure why. It became fashionable after their ISO downloads were briefly compromised in 2016, and a popular LWN post became the script for people to reiterate every time Mint is mentioned in any capacity.[0] I think it's a terrible shame. For all the stuff I wish it did better, it does so much right that I still overwhelmingly consider it the best distro for converting friends and family away from Windows or OSX, even if I don't use it myself. [0]https://lwn.net/Articles/676664/ https://lwn.net/Articles/676664/
- MisterOctober 7y ago
  Totally - Mint was my bridge from OSX to Linux. Great stuff. My impression is that the "cool kids" like to dis Mint because it's popular and easy to use. I found that its ease of use allowed me to get comfortable with the Linux ecosystem at a relaxed pace and not throw my hands up in frustration.
  - regularfry 7y ago
    I've actually gone the other way: started out on Debian, went through Ubuntu, and now I'm on Mint because it's least surprising of the lot of them (while being familiar enough that I don't need to relearn the world).
- jancsika 7y ago
  > This creates something that we in Debian call a "FrankenDebian" which results in system updates becoming unpredictable [2]. I believe this comment shows how a condescending communication style in FLOSS hurts goodwill and clogs the virtuous cycle of enthusiasm that fuels FLOSS. Here's something that's true: Debian Jessie ships a LTS Firefox for which it grants an exception to its strict package security update policy. That LTS Firefox version has its own support schedule, and its own arch support policy. Both of those skew from Debian's own policy and timeline. This means that one of the two most popular browsers on Debian doesn't provide the same ARM support that Debian claims to support on its website. It also means that Debian updates Firefox on stable (as well as Chromium on stable) whole cloth. It doesn't backport security updates because Debian does not have the resources to take on such a difficult project. That means for every Debian box set up as a user desktop, the two most popular packages cannot follow the package security guidelines that the quoted Debian fan/dev would hold up as one of Debian's strengths. To be clear: when Firefox LTS released an update that worked perfectly fine on all of their supported archs, that release broke Firefox completely on Debian Jessie on ARM. In other words, you can install a Debian called "stable" on an arch they call "supported" and end up upgrading yourself into a state where an official Debian package no longer works. In short-- all Debian stable packages are potentially "FrankenDebian" for this reason, and-- worse-- for really popular and important desktop packages. Elementary logic and social skills dictate that the person I quoted should be finding common ground with Linux Mint devs. Say package maintenance is hard. Say security backports don't really scale anymore. Say random number generators are tricky to get right. Pointing out one's own failures and citing sources for the rare successes seems like a winning strategy to me. Or at least one that doesn't threaten to zap all the energy of the people one communicates with/about. You'd think a project like Debian with its myriad guidelines and processes would have at least one sentence in there like, "Don't treat others like they're teenagers loitering outside your fast-food restaurant," or, "Don't be self-righteous." Or more pointed, "Don't talk down to other distros." Is there a Debian dev here who agrees with my upshot? There's apparently this whole inculcation process to become a member, so maybe one of those sentences could be part of it.
arusahni 7y ago
This touches on something I've seen in (some, not all) large open source communities: the language used on a daily basis. The default tone is one devoid of empathy or understanding. > This update is shit. or > [new build gets published, person's pet bug doesn't get addressed] > The devs are lazy. At what point did this sort of tone get normalized? I initially chalked it down to non-native English speakers using verbiage from forums and IRC channels, but over time I've observed that isn't the case.
- sodosopa 7y ago
  While I'd like to blame this on gaming culture, this went on back in the Usenet days too.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Hell is other people.
- regularfry 7y ago
  It's human nature. Literally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    it's a little bit lazy to blame it on nature. Not all communities function like this. As one of the users above points out, the degree to which abrasive language and behavior tends to pop up in OSS / linux communities is definitely grounded in a "usenet" culture. There's a long history of excusing aggressiveness as honesty and throwing "RTFM" responses around, or turning the smallest disagreement into a flame war. Now that OSS projects are really large and not dominated by in-groups any more, it has become a significant problem. This sort of thoughtless communication only works when the people having the conversation know each other.
unixhero 7y ago
Love Mint.
ohiovr 7y ago
Linux Mint is my main desktop operating system now after abandoning Windows and MacOS. I tried Debian, Ubuntu, Open Suse, but settled on Mint because I was familiar with Ubuntu and Mint feels traditional and polished. Every day I see sad examples of eternal September's march to the written abyss. I had a dream of writing a significant open source project but the reality of entitled user disruption, lack of clear economic benefit, lack of even personal benefit makes me think its a terrible idea. I wrote a closed source software that sells on the Apple app store. Despite nearly a million Downloads, and thousands of reviews and some real money too, the level of serious entitled bitchyness found everywhere in the open source world is non existant with my product. I even sell it for $19.99 well above typical app store prices. I love open source, I wish I could contribute but as of now there are more downs than ups.
- MrTonyD 7y ago
  I ran my own company for a few years just to make money to stop working so I could contribute to open source. By the time I finally made enough to not have to worry about money anymore, I had spent enough years working with open source to realize that big companies get great benefits (I was in meetings with HP, IBM, and Oracle VPs where open source was being supported to transfer responsibility and costs away from those companies.) At the same time, it is Software Developers and associated staffs which lose income. There is also less profit to invest in high quality documentation, training, support, and research (ever notice how most open source companies didn't actually develop the technology - they are just monetizing it through support or consulting?) So I had the chance to live my dream - supporting our community through open source - but realized that it was ultimately the wrong dream for our society.
  - ohiovr 7y ago
    Thank you for the story!
geddy 7y ago
I've been juggling the idea of switching _back_ to Linux Mint after running Ubuntu on my dev machine for the past year. I used Mint on my main PC a few years back and it was simply terrific - ultra fast and did everything as needed. Sometimes a change of scenery is great, in this case, this mean mention of Mint makes me want to go back.
umvi 7y ago
I wish people would realize that being kind gets you results 10x faster and better than being mean/critical. In my own experience I've had people tell me certain projects on GitHub are complete garbage and criticized all the shortcomings of the tool compared to other tools. It made me feel bad and want to take it down. On the other hand, I've had users praise other projects and excitedly request some missing features and that made me feel like a million bucks and I was filled with motivation to improve the tool.
- m-p-3 7y ago
  This is where you can tell them to go fork themselves ;) Thank you for taking your time and knowledge to provide some open-source tools! There's a lot of users out there that silently appreciate it.
module0000 7y ago
To the Mint guys: thanks! I don't use Mint, but I have in the past, and hundreds(thousands?) of people try it each day. Packaging open source software is a labor of love, and the community appreciates the work you are doing. No one ever says "good job!" when it works, but they raise hell when it doesn't. Keep doing what you are doing, because while you may not get to perceive it often: people really, really, really appreciate the fruits of your work!
justin66 7y ago
The actual update can be viewed here: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736 https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736
efqerqe54g545g1 7y ago
Linux Mint MATE is awesome and runs really, really well on older laptops. I have installed it for many newcomers to Linux and it has served these people well.
- muthdra 7y ago
  MATE is the supreme DE but the old i5 4Gb Vaio laptop I'm using runs Lubuntu (both LXDE and LXQt versions) better.
vikingcaffiene 7y ago
I would like to propose something that has long been simmering in my mind: zero tolerance to toxicity from the open source community at large. Too often I see entitled developers show up in these forums and just hurl abuse at the people who provide these wonderful tools free of charge. I propose that, if the request is anything less than respectful or if they, say DM a maintainer with abuse or what have you, they get banned. Shoot I'd say they not even be allowed to use the damn software anymore (although that would probably be difficult to manage). If what I am proposing sounds impractical, thats because it is but that doesn't mean we shouldn't start setting precedents. You don't like the new Mint logo? Fine. Tell them but do so nicely. Shoot maybe offer up something substantive and actionable. Whatever you do stop yelling things like "new logo is terrible change it back NOW". There's no excuse for going after someone to the point that THEY ARE CONSIDERING QUITTING MAKING THE SOFTWARE YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT. We all know how hard this job is. We should be lifting each other up and ejecting anyone with extreme prejudice who thinks that treating people in this manner is ok. </rant>
- dexen 7y ago
  >zero tolerance to toxicity That's a straightforward path into irrelevance. Every user and developer has a bad day or two; every user and developer has an obscure subject that riles them up well beyond what's reasonable. Zero tolerance here means they do go elsewhere, where quality of discussion is at maybe 90% instead of 100%, but at least they can partake in the discussion. Lastly, assholes make for effective leaders. Unfair? Maybe, but holds true through ages and cultures. A perhaps contrived example, but here goes: email spam. We have complex solutions to it, blacklists, whitelists, heuristics, whatnot, spread between servers and mail clients. Some end-users may indeed be running zero-tolerance rules, but by and large the system as whole is elastic. If you ever end up on a spam shitlist, be it due to a mistake or actual malice, there's always a way back. If the system was indeed geared for zero tolerance, it would be close to useless, if for no other reason because it would be pretty easy to get unsuspecting victims on a shitlist, dealing them permanent harm. Coming to think of it, no system in wider society is truly zero tolerance, except the death penalty - and that one is usually very heavily protested, just as well as guarded against mistakes and abuses by several layers of interleaved protections.
Scramblejams 7y ago
If you like Mint -- and I do -- please consider supporting the devs through a one-time donation or a Patreon monthly commitment: https://www.patreon.com/linux_mint/overview https://www.patreon.com/linux_mint/overview
simonblack 7y ago
Mint Mate. It's spartan, but it just works.

147 points by abeger 7y ago

heinrich5991 7y ago

The donation graph is misleading IMO, it doesn't start at 0 on the y axis.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

swozey 7y ago

I can't even imagine the stress from public comments that comes from working on an open source operating system. I don't use Mint but I'm hugely sympathetic to the devs who have to deal with the backlash from, of all things, a logo and website design change that they likely had little to no involvement with.

axaxs 7y ago
I worked for a while on a distro. The issue tracker is stressful for two main reasons. One, a lot of esoteric bugs that are hardware dependent. It's so frustrating to ask for help in testing to be ghosted or told 'no.' People don't seem to understand that as a small team, you don't have and won't buy all the hardware choices that exist to work on something for free. The second stressor are people being adament and pushy about what they want, and not bugs at all. Go build your own distro, guys. I found myself being a real dick to some people, so stepped away as it wasn't worth the stress, and I didn't want to tarnish the reputation of others who worked on the project.
- skocznymroczny 7y ago
  > People don't seem to understand that as a small team, you don't have and won't buy all the hardware choices that exist to work on something for free. that's why there shouldn't be as many distros. With fewer distros, it would be easier to test them on various configurations. Also it would make sure any fixes for specific hardware are used more widely, rather than ending up a patch in a single distro.
  - Mikeb85 7y ago
    I don't think there should be fewer distros, but I personally have mostly stuck to the big ones, as they generally have the fewest issues.
  - axaxs 7y ago
    I see your point... but realize that 99 percent of such bugs are upstream. So it's a matter of locking packages, or adding hacky things to a shell script that runs at install time. In a lot of way, it feels at times a distro maintainer is a secretary between the end user and upstream packages, since we end up opening the bugs.
  - magduf 7y ago
    Yeah, but much of the reason I think there's as much volunteer involvement as there is is because distros are different, and the volunteers are happier to contribute their time to something they believe in. If you have fewer distributions, that means they're going to make design choices more people won't like, which means volunteers aren't going to be as interested in contributing. You can't please all the people all the time, remember. A small number of distros will equate to making lots of compromises, so no one will be happy. This works for corporate products, because people are getting paid to work on something they don't care much about, but it doesn't work for a volunteer project. Just as an example: if I were working on, say, Linux Mint, but then all the distro maintainers decided to have a giant meeting and in it they decided we really only need one Linux distro, CentOS, I'd just quit. There's no way in hell I'd want to work on CentOS of all things. I can find more enjoyable ways of spending my free time. I'm sure you'll find this with anything that people are passionate about: if you try to get them to redirect their energy to something "boring", they're not going to do it.
TheCondor 7y ago
Opensource anything... It’s not completely thankless, but the thanks seem to be mostly direct and private and then you face public ridicule for errors, bugs, missteps or just when people have different aesthetics or taste and don’t like your project. There are so many “behind the scenes” sorts of projects too, stuff that matters and isn’t quite as visible to the common end user. I think of OpenSSL, the big security hole got more marketing and PR than the project ever did with “heart bleed.” Then some of the comments during the libressl review were very harsh. They did their thing in anonymity for decades, got used by everything and then took a public beating; clearly it depends on where the developers’ hearts are when that happened, maybe it wasn't so bad, it felt bad to watch. With something like mint, just about everything is subjective. There are going to be a lot of haters just because of opinion.
- fjp 7y ago
  Almost every python package that I've used seems to have Github "issues" opened where someone asks "Why even do this when there's [insert similar but different thing]". Who cares? Pip uninstall it if it isn't what you want? Fork it if you want something slightly different? Or contribute to a productive discussion about the direction of the project? Do SOMETHING positive.
bregma 7y ago
I worked as a front line developer at a major Linux distro known for making some unpopular decisions. I came to the position knowing full well how 10% of all people out there are loudmouth asscracks . People without experience or inside knowledge who think they know better than those with, and expect to have only their own personal demands met at the expense of everyone else probably because they are getting something for free. As long as he approaches the job knowing he is going to see some of the most wretched examples of scum and villainy, the dude can abide with grace. Just don't take it personally.
- jcastro 7y ago
  Heya bregma, good to see you! We had a Code of Conduct we could enforce on at least official properties to make sure people behave, though I wasn't able to find one for Mint. It doesn't stop if completely, but at least it's nice to be able to do your job without too much flaming. Reddit or blogs might be nuts, but at least the work mailing lists and bug trackers were relatively ok.
  - bregma 7y ago
    jcastro! The flaming is the required price for not spending all your time in an echo chamber and for leaving your comfort zone. And gosh, if you really want flaming, just mention a Code of Conduct. Even a CLA doesn't bring the worst of the dreck out like a CoC does.

doktrin 7y ago

> Remember that these folks are pouring all of their energy into a free product, and remember that they're sensitive to how you perceive it. I hope I live to see the day when the internet stops bringing out the worst in us. The Linux community might not be as vitriolic as cesspools like gaming, but some days it really isn't that far off.

toastking 7y ago
I think part of it was the tone set by Linus. He had an attitude that on the surface seemed to be perfectionism but was really just abusive. It's good that he stepped back and rethought how we dealt with people.
z2 7y ago
As someone who has published a free app for fun, I've learned that due to any mix of entitlement and ignorance, anything you put out there can make some people emotionally angry. I'm still learning how to move on and accept that this is OK, for them and for me.
- Insanity 7y ago
  Sorry you had to go through that! I tend to ignore the negative feedback, and reply to the postive feedback (with a simple thank you or something of the likes). If you did something for fun, it doesn't really matter what people think. Just keep doing stuff for fun, and kudos for putting it out there for others to enjoy! Even if you get some people who don't like it, remember you did not do it for them :-)
  - z2 7y ago
    Thank you! Overall it has been a positive experience :) This is my first time dealing with 'the public' and I'm likely overdue for the lesson that one can never (and shouldn't) make everybody happy.
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  I assume that human's stupidity is infinite. It helps a lot.

UweSchmidt 7y ago

Now that I'm no longer super young, I am very much aware of the precious time every day where I can do valuable, creative work (outside work). From this subjective point of view I question if many open soure projects are truly worth it. Valuable activities would 1. improve relevant, marketable skills 2. bring joy 3. help improve the world 4. make some money It appears that many activities around maintaining a linux distro are mundane chores, compared to the learning process of, say, studying security issues deep inside the kernel. It certainly does not bring joy as reliable and immediate as, say, switching off the computer and going outside for some pickup basketball, and there are already plenty of linux distros out there, with marginal differences and little impact general progress. Nothing needs to be said regarding my #4. So I will offer my unsolicited opintion: Life is short, focus your effort on things that are really worth it.

dessant 7y ago

> We can get demotivated, uncertain, depressed even by negative reactions or interactions, and it can lead to developers stepping away from the project, taking a break or even leaving for good. It truly is a struggle. I have a couple of projects with moderate numbers of users, and between the "it doesn't work" private messages (not even mentioning which project) and some abusive and entitled users, I do wonder sometimes what would be the best way to protect ourselves as maintainers of open source projects. There are of course sensible users whom I truly appreciate, though encouraging messages are easily drowned out by low quality support requests and negative interactions. We may step away for a while or cut off communication channels in order to heal, but I don't see a real solution to this problem, other than to delegate tasks so that abuse is spread out evenly between a team of maintainers.

rorykoehler 7y ago
Add a don't be a dick clause to the license and revoke the keys of anyone who is.
- dessant 7y ago
  That can be cathartic, but normalizing hostility towards users will ultimately hurt both you and your project. There are no winners in this context once you decide to draw your weapon.
  - otikik 7y ago
    On the other hand, letting people use the project forums to vent, or to attack others users, or attempting to hoard the devs' attention, will create its own set of problems. I'd say 1 or 2 polite warnings are due (everyone can have a bad day). If the misbehavior continues, take out the banhammer. Use it judiciously but decisively.
  - Goronmon 7y ago
    That can be cathartic, but normalizing hostility towards users will ultimately hurt both you and your project. Does it? In ways that are worse than what the devs are dealing with as mentioned in the OP? That sounds like a pretty big assumption to me.

obrisintor 7y ago

As much as I think that Linux Mint is a distribution with great potential, I don't want to support something that blatantly states that they don't want my help or the help of anyone who supports Israel. http://abriefhistory.org/?p=774 http://abriefhistory.org/?p=774

akoncius 7y ago
which is fine I think. you are entitled to your own opinion/views, as they are too.

Townley 7y ago

> Beyond that, keep in mind that while donations keep Linux Mint and other distributions afloat, the occasional message of appreciation can be encouraging, and at times personally invaluable. Exactly. This issue isn't just something that "maintainers deal with"; it's also something that "users can help with". The next time you install a library that makes your life easier, write someone an email. Star the project on GitHub. Open up a "TODO: Keep Being Awesome" ticket where others can show their gratitude. Even if you don't have the skills or bandwidth to contribute to a project's development, you can contribute to its morale.

dhimes 7y ago
Great advice.
Bartweiss 7y ago
Thanks for this. I'm not sure I've ever done it with devs I don't know, but I absolutely should - especially for small projects. Come to think of it, there's one random package that quietly solved the most mindbending pdf issues I've ever faced... Sounds like a good first person to drop a thank you note to!

bitL 7y ago

To all Mint developers: THANK YOU!!! I use Mint for over 5 years as my main OS and it allowed me to make a seamless transition from Windows/macOS to Linux for everyday tasks, on high-end hardware with multiple HiDPI monitors and including games with recent Steam updates (thanks to Ubuntu + Valve as well!). I can't imagine being stuck with Windows 10/macOS these days.

Chirael 7y ago
I've been using it for 2-3 years now on a Chromebook I converted to dual-boot with one of the options being Linux Mint on a USB. I don't use it every day but I do use it probably one a week for something vital. So I want to second the Thank You to the Mint developers!
JudgeWapner 7y ago
THANK YOU. I used it for 7 years, because I was sick of constantly tending to my Gentoo install. I used LM because it Just Worked. I never had to think about the OS, I could just focus on my work. The biggest bug I had in 7 years of using it was my /boot partition filling up because new kernel installs wouldn't delete the old kernels/initrd.img. Other than that, it just worked. Thank you
- saikatsg 7y ago
  What do you use now, looks like you don't use LM any more ;)
  - JudgeWapner 7y ago
    I use Arch. Kind of complex reasons, I guess. It wasn't that LM was deficient in any way, just figured it was time to really dig in and understand what my OS was doing. Arch has the best documentation, so I decided to switch to it.
    - O1111OOO 7y ago
      > Arch has the best documentation, so I decided to switch to it. Not an Arch user but their documentation is amazing (small sample[0]). I toyed with FreeBSD years ago and have never forgotten just how well documented the entire system was too[1]. Well-written documentation (with plenty of real world examples) is severely underappreciated in modern tech. It's not only empowering but it's just plain fun getting under the hood. [0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications [1] https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/consoles.html https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/c...

AdmiralAsshat 7y ago

Linux Mint seems to take a fairly regular beating from the Linux community at large, and I'm not sure why. It became fashionable after their ISO downloads were briefly compromised in 2016, and a popular LWN post became the script for people to reiterate every time Mint is mentioned in any capacity.[0] I think it's a terrible shame. For all the stuff I wish it did better, it does so much right that I still overwhelmingly consider it the best distro for converting friends and family away from Windows or OSX, even if I don't use it myself. [0]https://lwn.net/Articles/676664/ https://lwn.net/Articles/676664/

MisterOctober 7y ago
Totally - Mint was my bridge from OSX to Linux. Great stuff. My impression is that the "cool kids" like to dis Mint because it's popular and easy to use. I found that its ease of use allowed me to get comfortable with the Linux ecosystem at a relaxed pace and not throw my hands up in frustration.
- regularfry 7y ago
  I've actually gone the other way: started out on Debian, went through Ubuntu, and now I'm on Mint because it's least surprising of the lot of them (while being familiar enough that I don't need to relearn the world).
jancsika 7y ago
> This creates something that we in Debian call a "FrankenDebian" which results in system updates becoming unpredictable [2]. I believe this comment shows how a condescending communication style in FLOSS hurts goodwill and clogs the virtuous cycle of enthusiasm that fuels FLOSS. Here's something that's true: Debian Jessie ships a LTS Firefox for which it grants an exception to its strict package security update policy. That LTS Firefox version has its own support schedule, and its own arch support policy. Both of those skew from Debian's own policy and timeline. This means that one of the two most popular browsers on Debian doesn't provide the same ARM support that Debian claims to support on its website. It also means that Debian updates Firefox on stable (as well as Chromium on stable) whole cloth. It doesn't backport security updates because Debian does not have the resources to take on such a difficult project. That means for every Debian box set up as a user desktop, the two most popular packages cannot follow the package security guidelines that the quoted Debian fan/dev would hold up as one of Debian's strengths. To be clear: when Firefox LTS released an update that worked perfectly fine on all of their supported archs, that release broke Firefox completely on Debian Jessie on ARM. In other words, you can install a Debian called "stable" on an arch they call "supported" and end up upgrading yourself into a state where an official Debian package no longer works. In short-- all Debian stable packages are potentially "FrankenDebian" for this reason, and-- worse-- for really popular and important desktop packages. Elementary logic and social skills dictate that the person I quoted should be finding common ground with Linux Mint devs. Say package maintenance is hard. Say security backports don't really scale anymore. Say random number generators are tricky to get right. Pointing out one's own failures and citing sources for the rare successes seems like a winning strategy to me. Or at least one that doesn't threaten to zap all the energy of the people one communicates with/about. You'd think a project like Debian with its myriad guidelines and processes would have at least one sentence in there like, "Don't treat others like they're teenagers loitering outside your fast-food restaurant," or, "Don't be self-righteous." Or more pointed, "Don't talk down to other distros." Is there a Debian dev here who agrees with my upshot? There's apparently this whole inculcation process to become a member, so maybe one of those sentences could be part of it.

arusahni 7y ago

This touches on something I've seen in (some, not all) large open source communities: the language used on a daily basis. The default tone is one devoid of empathy or understanding. > This update is shit. or > [new build gets published, person's pet bug doesn't get addressed] > The devs are lazy. At what point did this sort of tone get normalized? I initially chalked it down to non-native English speakers using verbiage from forums and IRC channels, but over time I've observed that isn't the case.

sodosopa 7y ago
While I'd like to blame this on gaming culture, this went on back in the Usenet days too.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Hell is other people.
regularfry 7y ago
It's human nature. Literally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
- Barrin92 7y ago
  it's a little bit lazy to blame it on nature. Not all communities function like this. As one of the users above points out, the degree to which abrasive language and behavior tends to pop up in OSS / linux communities is definitely grounded in a "usenet" culture. There's a long history of excusing aggressiveness as honesty and throwing "RTFM" responses around, or turning the smallest disagreement into a flame war. Now that OSS projects are really large and not dominated by in-groups any more, it has become a significant problem. This sort of thoughtless communication only works when the people having the conversation know each other.

unixhero 7y ago

Love Mint.

ohiovr 7y ago

Linux Mint is my main desktop operating system now after abandoning Windows and MacOS. I tried Debian, Ubuntu, Open Suse, but settled on Mint because I was familiar with Ubuntu and Mint feels traditional and polished. Every day I see sad examples of eternal September's march to the written abyss. I had a dream of writing a significant open source project but the reality of entitled user disruption, lack of clear economic benefit, lack of even personal benefit makes me think its a terrible idea. I wrote a closed source software that sells on the Apple app store. Despite nearly a million Downloads, and thousands of reviews and some real money too, the level of serious entitled bitchyness found everywhere in the open source world is non existant with my product. I even sell it for $19.99 well above typical app store prices. I love open source, I wish I could contribute but as of now there are more downs than ups.

MrTonyD 7y ago
I ran my own company for a few years just to make money to stop working so I could contribute to open source. By the time I finally made enough to not have to worry about money anymore, I had spent enough years working with open source to realize that big companies get great benefits (I was in meetings with HP, IBM, and Oracle VPs where open source was being supported to transfer responsibility and costs away from those companies.) At the same time, it is Software Developers and associated staffs which lose income. There is also less profit to invest in high quality documentation, training, support, and research (ever notice how most open source companies didn't actually develop the technology - they are just monetizing it through support or consulting?) So I had the chance to live my dream - supporting our community through open source - but realized that it was ultimately the wrong dream for our society.
- ohiovr 7y ago
  Thank you for the story!

geddy 7y ago

I've been juggling the idea of switching _back_ to Linux Mint after running Ubuntu on my dev machine for the past year. I used Mint on my main PC a few years back and it was simply terrific - ultra fast and did everything as needed. Sometimes a change of scenery is great, in this case, this mean mention of Mint makes me want to go back.

umvi 7y ago

I wish people would realize that being kind gets you results 10x faster and better than being mean/critical. In my own experience I've had people tell me certain projects on GitHub are complete garbage and criticized all the shortcomings of the tool compared to other tools. It made me feel bad and want to take it down. On the other hand, I've had users praise other projects and excitedly request some missing features and that made me feel like a million bucks and I was filled with motivation to improve the tool.

m-p-3 7y ago
This is where you can tell them to go fork themselves ;) Thank you for taking your time and knowledge to provide some open-source tools! There's a lot of users out there that silently appreciate it.

module0000 7y ago

To the Mint guys: thanks! I don't use Mint, but I have in the past, and hundreds(thousands?) of people try it each day. Packaging open source software is a labor of love, and the community appreciates the work you are doing. No one ever says "good job!" when it works, but they raise hell when it doesn't. Keep doing what you are doing, because while you may not get to perceive it often: people really, really, really appreciate the fruits of your work!

justin66 7y ago

The actual update can be viewed here: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736 https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736

efqerqe54g545g1 7y ago

Linux Mint MATE is awesome and runs really, really well on older laptops. I have installed it for many newcomers to Linux and it has served these people well.

muthdra 7y ago
MATE is the supreme DE but the old i5 4Gb Vaio laptop I'm using runs Lubuntu (both LXDE and LXQt versions) better.

vikingcaffiene 7y ago

I would like to propose something that has long been simmering in my mind: zero tolerance to toxicity from the open source community at large. Too often I see entitled developers show up in these forums and just hurl abuse at the people who provide these wonderful tools free of charge. I propose that, if the request is anything less than respectful or if they, say DM a maintainer with abuse or what have you, they get banned. Shoot I'd say they not even be allowed to use the damn software anymore (although that would probably be difficult to manage). If what I am proposing sounds impractical, thats because it is but that doesn't mean we shouldn't start setting precedents. You don't like the new Mint logo? Fine. Tell them but do so nicely. Shoot maybe offer up something substantive and actionable. Whatever you do stop yelling things like "new logo is terrible change it back NOW". There's no excuse for going after someone to the point that THEY ARE CONSIDERING QUITTING MAKING THE SOFTWARE YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT. We all know how hard this job is. We should be lifting each other up and ejecting anyone with extreme prejudice who thinks that treating people in this manner is ok. </rant>

dexen 7y ago
>zero tolerance to toxicity That's a straightforward path into irrelevance. Every user and developer has a bad day or two; every user and developer has an obscure subject that riles them up well beyond what's reasonable. Zero tolerance here means they do go elsewhere, where quality of discussion is at maybe 90% instead of 100%, but at least they can partake in the discussion. Lastly, assholes make for effective leaders. Unfair? Maybe, but holds true through ages and cultures. A perhaps contrived example, but here goes: email spam. We have complex solutions to it, blacklists, whitelists, heuristics, whatnot, spread between servers and mail clients. Some end-users may indeed be running zero-tolerance rules, but by and large the system as whole is elastic. If you ever end up on a spam shitlist, be it due to a mistake or actual malice, there's always a way back. If the system was indeed geared for zero tolerance, it would be close to useless, if for no other reason because it would be pretty easy to get unsuspecting victims on a shitlist, dealing them permanent harm. Coming to think of it, no system in wider society is truly zero tolerance, except the death penalty - and that one is usually very heavily protested, just as well as guarded against mistakes and abuses by several layers of interleaved protections.

Scramblejams 7y ago

If you like Mint -- and I do -- please consider supporting the devs through a one-time donation or a Patreon monthly commitment: https://www.patreon.com/linux_mint/overview https://www.patreon.com/linux_mint/overview

simonblack 7y ago

Mint Mate. It's spartan, but it just works.