7 ms·

List of 30 European Tech Visas and Work Permits

221 points by gonsanchezs 8y ago

chrisseaton 8y ago
It's strange when I think about it that I could tell you quite a bit about the US immigration and visa system (and I've never even used it apart from a J-1 years ago) but I have absolutely no idea how my own country the UK does immigration and visas.
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  Surprisingly, the UK is not that bad.
  - atlasunshrugged 8y ago
    For the UK I hit some dead programs (ex. Sirius, which is supposed to be one of the endorsement options for the Tier 1 Graduate Entrepreneur visa). Is it because no one knows how Brexit will affect the rules? Just this program stopped being interesting or is on temp hiatus? I do think it's pretty neat that just getting into an accelerator in the UK can also help with your visa process (endorsements for entrepreneur visa) http://www.siriusprogramme.com/apply http://www.siriusprogramme.com/apply https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/entrepreneurs-setting-up-in-the-uk/entrepreneurs-setting-up-in-the-uk https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/entrepreneurs-set...
  - repolfx 8y ago
    Why is that surprising? The UK has had huge immigration numbers for decades and a centrist/centre-right government that is (mildly) interested in simplifying government procedures.
    - gsnedders 8y ago
      Because reducing the number of immigrants has been a hot topic politically for over the past decade.
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        I think almost everyone wants skilled immigration. People who were supporting Brexit specifically for immigration reasons were saying they'd support exceptions for skilled immigration, especially into the NHS. Even Nigel Farage is against a cap on immigration and for a points system for skilled immigration!
        gsnedders 8y ago
        My point was more addressing why anyone might be surprised at the UK being relatively easy immigration wise. That said, I'm not sure it really is as simple as skilled immigrants being welcome: there's plenty of people who'd rather we didn't have so many non-Western (culturally!) immigrants regardless of skill.
      - wongarsu 8y ago
        I think in most of Western Europe "limit immigration" is just the politically correct code for "stop immigration of Muslims and other people from non-Western nations". Skilled workers from Western nations are usually welcomed with open arms.
        kaybe 8y ago
        Also immigrating from another EU country just means to move there and register with the local authorities. Also works for Iceland and Norway, but there you have to get a job within 3? months to be allowed to stay. Although we're currently having great fun (/s) at the lower end of the German rental market due to all these new young people working here and of course wanting to live somewhere as well.
        consumer451 8y ago
        In England at least, there seems to be a significant “EU immigrants took our jobs” factor as well. As I understand it, that perception was a significant factor in the Brexit vote. For example see: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-check-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-che...
    - pjc50 8y ago
      > centrist/centre-right government that is (mildly) interested in simplifying government procedures. None of this is in any way true; I've known several people personally who've had difficult and expensive fights with the Home Office, and every indication has been that they're looking to reduce absolute numbers at any cost, including egregiously unfair processes. For one person, their tax accountant made an error in filing to the Inland Revenue. That resulted in a fight that cost 6 months, £12k legal fees, and was barred from working or renting property during that time. Nor is it appropriate to characterise any government contemplating no deal Brexit as "centrist".
    - MagnumOpus 8y ago
      Wrong on two counts. The UK home office is not interested in simplifying but in creating a hostile environment for skilled immigrants [0]. Second, the current government is certainly not centrist but far-right nationalist - if the above policy doesn't clue you in, Brexit should... [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environm...
      - repolfx 8y ago
        I was referring to simplifying procedures in general and yes, they have done a lot of that. Look at gov.uk, look at how there are now new banks in the UK after hundreds of years with none. The "hostile environment" is all about illegal immigration and as such is certainly not about pointlessly complicated paperwork for people who are legal immigrants. It says absolutely everything about the extremist position that some people have reached that you appear to be treating illegal and legal immigration as exactly the same, and then describe a government that tries to enforce its own immigration rules as "far right nationalist". If that's the case then practically every country in the world is "far right nationalist", which would make it a meaningless designation. Exactly what it's become!
  - laurencerowe 8y ago
    UK immigration experience varies hugely by income. Some friends of mine experienced trying to move a young family from the US to the UK to be close to grandparents were separated for more than six months while the UK parent found a job and applied for the visa for their partner.
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  I don't think it's that strange at all: information about your native country's visa system is almost entirely irrelevant to you. I also don't know what's on my country's citizenship exam because I'll never have to take it.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > information about your native country's visa system is almost entirely irrelevant to you It's not irrelevant to me - I depend on doctors and nurses who are recruited on that system to give just a single concrete example, and what's more I'm responsible for the system via my representative as a voter.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      Exactly. People think it's easy so they vote for it to be made harder, again and again, resulting in an increasingly unfair system.
johnchristopher 8y ago
Why is Israel in a European list ?
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  Usually, the Isreal/Tel Aviv tech scene is "grouped" with the European scene. A bunch of publications cover Europe + Israel, so I figured why not.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- aerodog 8y ago
  But not Turkey...(?)
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Probably because the culture is separated, which is not the case with Israel?
    - gnulinux 8y ago
      I worked in a startup in Turkey (Istanbul) years ago (currently working in a startup in Boston). The culture was pretty "Western". The office had a beer fountain and my manager was really chill, it was an enjoyable experience. Not sure if you would be able to find that in any other part of the country though.
      - TomMarius 8y ago
        I heard Turkey has changed a lot in the past 5 years. Do you think it'd be the same today?
        gnulinux 8y ago
        I don't know sorry. This was ~7 years ago and I lived in the US since then. I would guess it highly depends on the company. The company I worked for was a hardware/iot/web startup that was doing really fascinating work, and got good investment, and founders were graduates of best universities in Turkey. My guess is if you research the company and see that the culture is something you like, it's probably possible to find another company like that. Though I would admit finding a job somewhere else in Europe is probably orders of magnitude safer. I wouldn't do it today, but that's because I have a job I love in the US.
fooblat 8y ago
Missing from the Dutch Highly Skilled Visa is that there is also an income requirement based on age. I don't recall the exact numbers but if you are 35+ the income requirement is significantly higher. In any case, the required level would not be a problem for most tech workers.
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  I'll add it now.
- speleding 8y ago
  It's important to note that if you qualify for The Dutch Highly Skilled Visa you will typically also qualify for the great "30% rule" tax exception, this means that you get 30% of your income tax-free for 5 years, and the other 70% will fall mostly in the lowest tax bracket. (Ostensibly to help you move, but in practice really to make The Netherlands more competitive for highly skilled migrants) To qualify you need a salary of €54K (lower if you're under 30), which is pretty easy to get in the tech scene so it's not uncommon for startups in Amsterdam to have all their foreign workers making more than their native Dutch colleagues.
xacaxulu 8y ago
American in Paris for 1 year working as a Senior DevSecOps Engineer (or whatever they want to call us). Went from 225kUSD/yr in usa to 95kEUR in Europe (most senior devs are lucky to get 75k, paris tech salaries are lagging behind London, AMS and Berlin. I felt like I was getting underpaid until I figured out (awkwardly at a dinner) that i make more than a lot of doctors and government ministers. Plus the healthcare, subsidized transit, subsidized lunches 20 days a month and TRUE vacation means I'm never going back to the states. All that being said, I'm bouncing to Berlin for a higher salary and a roughly 30 percent drop in cost of living compared to Paris. Check out jobbatical.com Amsterdam is a hot scene, Berlin is hot and affordable, dont come to Paris unless you really speak French and or have deep Fintech/banking tech background.
- sneeze-slayer 8y ago
  It's interesting that you're moving to Berlin for a higher salary. I thought Berlin was infamous for very low salaries, but perhaps that's only among junior developers.
  - gonsanchezs 8y ago
    From personal friends, I know you can get paid >120k EUR if you have 5-10+ years of experience.
    - ido 8y ago
      I would be interested to know what these friends do. From my personal experience in game-dev in Berlin, the highest earning coding individual-contributor (so not a manager) salary I ever saw was 70-something €k per year (and it is quite rare to go above €65k even as a very senior programmer). You will literally have to be C-level at a large and succesful company to earn €120k+ as far as I can tell (in this sector).
      - dietr1ch 8y ago
        Haven't the game industry always relied on offering a "dream job" to underpay?
winter_blue 8y ago
This is amazing. Thanks!
renholder 8y ago
The information for Ireland isn't entirely accurate. There's two separate lists for the availability of the Critical Skills Employment permit and the second list requires a minimum annual salary of €60,000[0]: Occupations with a minimum annual remuneration of €30,000 for a restricted number of strategically important occupations contained in the Highly Skilled Eligible Occupations List. A relevant degree qualification or higher is required. All occupations with a minimum annual remuneration of over €60,000, other than those on the Ineligible Categories of Employment for Employment Permits or which are contrary to the public interest. For Sweden, the employment link referenced is for self-employment. The details around regular, full-time employment can be found on Migrationsverket's site[1]. [0] - https://dbei.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Permit-Types/Critical-Skills-Employment-Permit/ https://dbei.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills/Emplo... [1] - https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Employed/Work-permit-requirements.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  Fixing.
  - renholder 8y ago
    Cheers! Just trying to help out. To quote Hackers[0]: "We demand free access to data, well, it comes with some responsibility." [0] - https://youtu.be/Rn2cf_wJ4f4 https://youtu.be/Rn2cf_wJ4f4
    - gonsanchezs 8y ago
      Absolutely, I really appreciate it.
0xfaded 8y ago
I have a Danish startup visa and happy to answer questions. One thing re funding I wish I understood before I moved here: Europe has no favoured state laws which prevent governments from unilaterally propping up local companies, startups are no exception. However, there is a "no one cares" de minimus limit of 200k euros. Any published funding accompanying a startup visa will come out of this amount, and in practice there are many other schemes to receive money up until the 200k limit. Beyond that you start applying for European wide funding schemes. I'd choose your destination on other factors, since all state money is subject to the same limit.
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  Is the visa hard to get? How long did it take?
  - 0xfaded 8y ago
    Theoretically 5 months (3 months to is the business panel, 2 months to apply for the visa). Took me 10 months because I didn't quite get everything perfect the first time. If you've worked in SF or NY I'd say you're almost guaranteed acceptance. Otherwise I've heard it's pretty hard to get, and it will come down to your credentials and business.
- new_here 8y ago
  I'm moving to Denmark in a month. A few questions, if you have time: - Do you have an opinion on the Copenhagen tech scene? Companies, talent, access to funding etc. - How've you found integrating with the Danish culture? - Any suggestions for how to build your network there?
  - magduf 8y ago
    I have another question to add to this list (part of your question #2 actually): how is dating in Europe for an American?
    - Casperin 8y ago
Spooky23 8y ago
Another avenue to consider is that Ireland allows citizenship by registration for anyone with a grandparent born in Ireland. It’s a pretty easy process if you qualify, and isn’t a visa, you are immediately recognized. There are some gotchas. The US doesn’t acknowledge dual citizenship, and I believe you must travel in/out of the US with a US passport. If you have a US security clearance or wish to obtain one, you will have a problem as well.
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  Both Italy and Spain have the same regime. It can take a year or two to set everything up, but you get citizenship and a passport (not a temp visa)
  - dmurray 8y ago
    Italy at least is much more lenient, allowing you to go back as many generations as you like to prove Italian ancestry.
- cr1895 8y ago
  >The US doesn’t acknowledge dual citizenship How is that a gotcha?
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    If you’re in a field where future work may require a security clearance in the US, my understanding (which may be incorrect) is that you have to renounce the second citizenship. You may have other trouble if you travel to a place sanctioned by the US, but not by the second country. There may be others — citizenship is a deeper commitment than a visa.
    - benttoothpaste 8y ago
      It used to be like that but these days it is possible to get a security clearance while retaining the second citizenship provided there is no "conflict of interest". Whether there is a conflict of interest or not will be determined by the government investigation of course.
te_chris 8y ago
For some reason the UK Tech Nation visa isn't filled in. Proper name is Tier 1 (Exceptional Talent). Tech Nation are the 'designated competent body' for the tech specialistaion - it's a generic visa for specialists who've been endorsed by a body in the UK from their industry. It cost something like £600 all up for the actual fees, then they sting you with an NHS surcharge which is now £400 a year I think - another gift to immigrants from Mrs May. They only give about 400-odd of them a year. I've got the visa, I feel like the requirements for this visa should mention that putting together the application process was a shitload of work because it goes to a panel of industry people to be assesed, so is much, much harder to get than a lot of the other ones which are more criteria based. Really, if you want it, you need to convince the panelists that you'll add value to UK tech somehow, beyond just being an employee. Also, don't be like this guy if you don't get it...https://www.technation.sucks/ https://www.technation.sucks/
- jpatokal 8y ago
  > Tech Nation, the Giant Ape, has no sign of intelligence and is there to destroy beautiful things that go beyond her comprehension ability. Man, somebody's got an axe to grind...
- vram22 8y ago
  Is this Tier 1 visa the same as, or similar to, the earlier HSMP (Highly Skilled Migrants Program)?
- te_chris 8y ago
  Oh yeah, can't edit my comment, but you've got the cost wrong. It's a two part application process, so when you apply to get endorsed, it's £456. Then, once you've been endorsed, you can apply for the actual visa using the endorsement you got from tech nation. That's £156. It used to be £268 for each stage, so split 50/50. I'm also very confident there's only 400 a year. 2000 is the total for all the Tier 1 (Exceptional Talent) visas, across all industries and disciplines - so engineering, art, music, etc etc. Details here: https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-exceptional-talent https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-exceptional-talent
jve 8y ago
@gonsanchezs, please add Latvia: https://startuplatvia.eu/startup-visa https://startuplatvia.eu/startup-visa Cost: 100Eur Family: Yes Must be board member Requirements: Not employed at other company or member of another board. Within 6 months 30'000 Eur investment, 18 months another 30'000;
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  done
Proven 8y ago
What able person in their right mind would want to go to the EU? It would be helpful to also note various income and other (eg VAT) tax rates so that people can estimate how much of their prospective paycheck would be taken by various governments, from local to the EU.
tyteen4a03 8y ago
Thanks for the list - would love to see which countries are new-grad friendly as well.
- cr1895 8y ago
  Netherlands is pretty favorable. Get an MSc and you'll have full access to the Dutch job market for a whole year, then once you get a job you can get the highly-skilled migrant permit (with less restrictive criteria I think). After five years and passing some "integration" tests you can get permanent residence. You're disadvantaged in some ways however because you're ineligible for the 30% tax ruling you'd possibly receive if you were recruited from abroad into a highly skilled position. Then again, once you've started working you can do some tax adjusting and deduct a big chunk of your tuition costs from your first working year's taxes. I'm not sure if this will be possible much longer, though.
  - joelbluminator 8y ago
    Graduates can receive 30% ruling...
    - cr1895 8y ago
      Only PhD graduates, according to the Belastingdienst. https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/belastingdienst/individuals/living_and_working/working_in_another_country_temporarily/you_are_coming_to_work_in_the_netherlands/30_facility_for_incoming_employees/conditions_30_p_facility/conditions_30_percent_facility https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/... https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/belastingdienst/business/payroll_taxes/you_are_not_established_in_the_netherlands_are_you_required_to_withhold_payroll_taxes/when_you_are_going_to_withhold_payroll_taxes/etraterritorial_costs_and_the_30percent-facility/conditions_attached_to_the_30percent-facility/definition_of_expatriate_employee https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/...
  - tyteen4a03 8y ago
    Yeah I'm only getting a Bachelor's.
superwayne 8y ago
You could add Austria to the list: https://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanent-immigration/very-highly-qualified-workers/ https://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanen...
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  done
woahitsraj 8y ago
Left the states a few years ago. After a 2 years stint in Toronto at a startup I now work for a Swedish development agency in Gothenburg. 6 weeks of paid vacation, great public transit, and affordable housing all mean I'm never going back to the states. If your considering moving to Europe, I'd highly recommend it. Salary isn't everything in life. Happy to answer any questions
- Pandabob 8y ago
  How's agency life compared to working at a startup? I'm currently at an agency in Stockholm and I'm thinking if I should go try out what's it like on the other side.
  - woahitsraj 8y ago
    It's a very different pace of work. I really loved working at a startup but there were some months where I was working 60-70 hours a week to get something shipped because runway was short. I learned a lot and had a lot of fun but I prefer agency life. Lots of variety of projects, reasonable time budgets, generous time off, and I always get to work on pretty cutting edge technologies.
- oblio 8y ago
  Affordable housing? I heard that Stockholm is super expensive relative to local salaries.
  - woahitsraj 8y ago
    I live in Göteborg but there are other things than relative salary that make Sweden attractive. I think it depends a lot on what you want out of life. The US or Canada might be good for some people. If you want to maximize your salary relative to cost of living, Austin or Seattle may be a good choice.
- danilocesar 8y ago
  What's so bad about Toronto? Ontario looks like a nice region to live.
Raed667 8y ago
I moved from Tunisia to France 4 years ago, feel free to email, I'd be glad to help with any information. Email is in my profile.
mebassett 8y ago
I'm not familiar with the immigration system of too many other countries. But for the UK this is masking a lot of major differences between visas. For instance, the Tier 2 visa requires an employer to sponsor it. The visa is then tied to that job. That employer needs a license, et cetera. Whereas the tech nation visa allows someone to come to the UK without a job and look, and then change jobs easily.
jakozaur 8y ago
FWIW: Some countries like Poland, don't have a special visa, but regular ones are easily available. Reasonable quick (2 months) with low legal cost.
baybal2 8y ago
I think details on issuance times are needed, some of those can easily be taking half a year or more to get, other are known to routinely miss advertised times (blue card)
- franee 8y ago
  French tech talent visa (eu blue card) - 1 month for the visa itself. Then 3 months processing for the residency (applied dec got the card in mar).
bjs250 8y ago
Anyone have advice for junior SWEs? I will have a year of co-op experience by the end of 2019, and was thinking of applying from the US to work in Germany or the Netherlands for full-time junior positions.
CalRobert 8y ago
May I suggest an addition? Ireland has a working holiday visa that lets students and recent graduates come live and work for a year with basically no restrictions (no need for work permit, etc.) It's the only EU country I know offering such a fantastic opportunity, at least for US citizens (Canadians, South Koreans, etc. have more options) https://www.dfa.ie/travel/visas/working-holiday-visas/ https://www.dfa.ie/travel/visas/working-holiday-visas/ It's fantastic for someone who probably could get their foot in the door but needs to be physically present in the place to get started. Interviewing from another continent is 100x as hard.
EvagohP5 8y ago
My god, any other poor wrecked like me working in Spain? Earning 50k/year after taxes, and that's not a bad salary in Spain at All
kyranjamie 8y ago
Nice, I'd love to see a list similar to this, that includes tax relief as well — similar to The Netherland's 30% ruling.
CalRobert 8y ago
Another addition suggestion - the Dutch American Friendship Treaty. If you're a US citizen, you've got ~$7500 in savings, and can employ yourself, you can live and work in the Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT I emailed this guy a few times and he was always happy to answer questions - http://shawnindutch.com/ http://shawnindutch.com/
foobarbazetc 8y ago
Which European city has the most SF-like weather? :)
- evgen 8y ago
  If you are looking for cities with a decent tech scene then for SF weather it is probably London and for peninsula and south bay weather maybe Barcelona.
  - foobarbazetc 8y ago
    Nah, don’t care about tech scene since I remote and have a family. It currently costs like 11k/month just to get out of bed in the morning. Been wanting to live in Europe for a while.
    - lgregg 8y ago
      You want to look for Köppen Csb climate cities. You could start researching here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_climate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_climate
scottlocklin 8y ago
Missing: http://www.czechstartups.org/en/start-up-visa/ http://www.czechstartups.org/en/start-up-visa/
robk 8y ago
This should include renewability and pathway to permanence and citizenship. UK tech nation has permanence in 5 and citizenship in 6 which is quite compelling
based2 8y ago
France: Passport talent: multi-year residence card of a foreigner in France https://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.service-public.fr%2Fparticuliers%2Fvosdroits%2FF16922 https://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=... https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16922 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16922
akaralar 8y ago
I’m in the process of applying for Spanish Highly Skilled visa and the company told me that university diploma is required. I wonder where the author of the document got his info on that visa, to make sure whether it’s required or not.

221 points by gonsanchezs 8y ago

It's strange when I think about it that I could tell you quite a bit about the US immigration and visa system (and I've never even used it apart from a J-1 years ago) but I have absolutely no idea how my own country the UK does immigration and visas.

gonsanchezs 8y ago
Surprisingly, the UK is not that bad.
- atlasunshrugged 8y ago
  For the UK I hit some dead programs (ex. Sirius, which is supposed to be one of the endorsement options for the Tier 1 Graduate Entrepreneur visa). Is it because no one knows how Brexit will affect the rules? Just this program stopped being interesting or is on temp hiatus? I do think it's pretty neat that just getting into an accelerator in the UK can also help with your visa process (endorsements for entrepreneur visa) http://www.siriusprogramme.com/apply http://www.siriusprogramme.com/apply https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/entrepreneurs-setting-up-in-the-uk/entrepreneurs-setting-up-in-the-uk https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/entrepreneurs-set...
- repolfx 8y ago
  Why is that surprising? The UK has had huge immigration numbers for decades and a centrist/centre-right government that is (mildly) interested in simplifying government procedures.
  - gsnedders 8y ago
    Because reducing the number of immigrants has been a hot topic politically for over the past decade.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      I think almost everyone wants skilled immigration. People who were supporting Brexit specifically for immigration reasons were saying they'd support exceptions for skilled immigration, especially into the NHS. Even Nigel Farage is against a cap on immigration and for a points system for skilled immigration!
      - gsnedders 8y ago
        My point was more addressing why anyone might be surprised at the UK being relatively easy immigration wise. That said, I'm not sure it really is as simple as skilled immigrants being welcome: there's plenty of people who'd rather we didn't have so many non-Western (culturally!) immigrants regardless of skill.
    - wongarsu 8y ago
      I think in most of Western Europe "limit immigration" is just the politically correct code for "stop immigration of Muslims and other people from non-Western nations". Skilled workers from Western nations are usually welcomed with open arms.
      - kaybe 8y ago
        Also immigrating from another EU country just means to move there and register with the local authorities. Also works for Iceland and Norway, but there you have to get a job within 3? months to be allowed to stay. Although we're currently having great fun (/s) at the lower end of the German rental market due to all these new young people working here and of course wanting to live somewhere as well.
      - consumer451 8y ago
        In England at least, there seems to be a significant “EU immigrants took our jobs” factor as well. As I understand it, that perception was a significant factor in the Brexit vote. For example see: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-check-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-che...
  - pjc50 8y ago
    > centrist/centre-right government that is (mildly) interested in simplifying government procedures. None of this is in any way true; I've known several people personally who've had difficult and expensive fights with the Home Office, and every indication has been that they're looking to reduce absolute numbers at any cost, including egregiously unfair processes. For one person, their tax accountant made an error in filing to the Inland Revenue. That resulted in a fight that cost 6 months, £12k legal fees, and was barred from working or renting property during that time. Nor is it appropriate to characterise any government contemplating no deal Brexit as "centrist".
  - MagnumOpus 8y ago
    Wrong on two counts. The UK home office is not interested in simplifying but in creating a hostile environment for skilled immigrants [0]. Second, the current government is certainly not centrist but far-right nationalist - if the above policy doesn't clue you in, Brexit should... [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environm...
    - repolfx 8y ago
      I was referring to simplifying procedures in general and yes, they have done a lot of that. Look at gov.uk, look at how there are now new banks in the UK after hundreds of years with none. The "hostile environment" is all about illegal immigration and as such is certainly not about pointlessly complicated paperwork for people who are legal immigrants. It says absolutely everything about the extremist position that some people have reached that you appear to be treating illegal and legal immigration as exactly the same, and then describe a government that tries to enforce its own immigration rules as "far right nationalist". If that's the case then practically every country in the world is "far right nationalist", which would make it a meaningless designation. Exactly what it's become!
- laurencerowe 8y ago
  UK immigration experience varies hugely by income. Some friends of mine experienced trying to move a young family from the US to the UK to be close to grandparents were separated for more than six months while the UK parent found a job and applied for the visa for their partner.
ForHackernews 8y ago
I don't think it's that strange at all: information about your native country's visa system is almost entirely irrelevant to you. I also don't know what's on my country's citizenship exam because I'll never have to take it.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > information about your native country's visa system is almost entirely irrelevant to you It's not irrelevant to me - I depend on doctors and nurses who are recruited on that system to give just a single concrete example, and what's more I'm responsible for the system via my representative as a voter.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Exactly. People think it's easy so they vote for it to be made harder, again and again, resulting in an increasingly unfair system.

johnchristopher 8y ago

Why is Israel in a European list ?

gonsanchezs 8y ago
Usually, the Isreal/Tel Aviv tech scene is "grouped" with the European scene. A bunch of publications cover Europe + Israel, so I figured why not.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
aerodog 8y ago
But not Turkey...(?)
- TomMarius 8y ago
  Probably because the culture is separated, which is not the case with Israel?
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    I worked in a startup in Turkey (Istanbul) years ago (currently working in a startup in Boston). The culture was pretty "Western". The office had a beer fountain and my manager was really chill, it was an enjoyable experience. Not sure if you would be able to find that in any other part of the country though.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      I heard Turkey has changed a lot in the past 5 years. Do you think it'd be the same today?
      - gnulinux 8y ago
        I don't know sorry. This was ~7 years ago and I lived in the US since then. I would guess it highly depends on the company. The company I worked for was a hardware/iot/web startup that was doing really fascinating work, and got good investment, and founders were graduates of best universities in Turkey. My guess is if you research the company and see that the culture is something you like, it's probably possible to find another company like that. Though I would admit finding a job somewhere else in Europe is probably orders of magnitude safer. I wouldn't do it today, but that's because I have a job I love in the US.

fooblat 8y ago

Missing from the Dutch Highly Skilled Visa is that there is also an income requirement based on age. I don't recall the exact numbers but if you are 35+ the income requirement is significantly higher. In any case, the required level would not be a problem for most tech workers.

gonsanchezs 8y ago
I'll add it now.
speleding 8y ago
It's important to note that if you qualify for The Dutch Highly Skilled Visa you will typically also qualify for the great "30% rule" tax exception, this means that you get 30% of your income tax-free for 5 years, and the other 70% will fall mostly in the lowest tax bracket. (Ostensibly to help you move, but in practice really to make The Netherlands more competitive for highly skilled migrants) To qualify you need a salary of €54K (lower if you're under 30), which is pretty easy to get in the tech scene so it's not uncommon for startups in Amsterdam to have all their foreign workers making more than their native Dutch colleagues.

xacaxulu 8y ago

American in Paris for 1 year working as a Senior DevSecOps Engineer (or whatever they want to call us). Went from 225kUSD/yr in usa to 95kEUR in Europe (most senior devs are lucky to get 75k, paris tech salaries are lagging behind London, AMS and Berlin. I felt like I was getting underpaid until I figured out (awkwardly at a dinner) that i make more than a lot of doctors and government ministers. Plus the healthcare, subsidized transit, subsidized lunches 20 days a month and TRUE vacation means I'm never going back to the states. All that being said, I'm bouncing to Berlin for a higher salary and a roughly 30 percent drop in cost of living compared to Paris. Check out jobbatical.com Amsterdam is a hot scene, Berlin is hot and affordable, dont come to Paris unless you really speak French and or have deep Fintech/banking tech background.

sneeze-slayer 8y ago
It's interesting that you're moving to Berlin for a higher salary. I thought Berlin was infamous for very low salaries, but perhaps that's only among junior developers.
- gonsanchezs 8y ago
  From personal friends, I know you can get paid >120k EUR if you have 5-10+ years of experience.
  - ido 8y ago
    I would be interested to know what these friends do. From my personal experience in game-dev in Berlin, the highest earning coding individual-contributor (so not a manager) salary I ever saw was 70-something €k per year (and it is quite rare to go above €65k even as a very senior programmer). You will literally have to be C-level at a large and succesful company to earn €120k+ as far as I can tell (in this sector).
    - dietr1ch 8y ago
      Haven't the game industry always relied on offering a "dream job" to underpay?

winter_blue 8y ago

This is amazing. Thanks!

renholder 8y ago

The information for Ireland isn't entirely accurate. There's two separate lists for the availability of the Critical Skills Employment permit and the second list requires a minimum annual salary of €60,000[0]: Occupations with a minimum annual remuneration of €30,000 for a restricted number of strategically important occupations contained in the Highly Skilled Eligible Occupations List. A relevant degree qualification or higher is required. All occupations with a minimum annual remuneration of over €60,000, other than those on the Ineligible Categories of Employment for Employment Permits or which are contrary to the public interest. For Sweden, the employment link referenced is for self-employment. The details around regular, full-time employment can be found on Migrationsverket's site[1]. [0] - https://dbei.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Permit-Types/Critical-Skills-Employment-Permit/ https://dbei.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills/Emplo... [1] - https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Employed/Work-permit-requirements.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...

gonsanchezs 8y ago
Fixing.
- renholder 8y ago
  Cheers! Just trying to help out. To quote Hackers[0]: "We demand free access to data, well, it comes with some responsibility." [0] - https://youtu.be/Rn2cf_wJ4f4 https://youtu.be/Rn2cf_wJ4f4
  - gonsanchezs 8y ago
    Absolutely, I really appreciate it.

0xfaded 8y ago

I have a Danish startup visa and happy to answer questions. One thing re funding I wish I understood before I moved here: Europe has no favoured state laws which prevent governments from unilaterally propping up local companies, startups are no exception. However, there is a "no one cares" de minimus limit of 200k euros. Any published funding accompanying a startup visa will come out of this amount, and in practice there are many other schemes to receive money up until the 200k limit. Beyond that you start applying for European wide funding schemes. I'd choose your destination on other factors, since all state money is subject to the same limit.

gonsanchezs 8y ago
Is the visa hard to get? How long did it take?
- 0xfaded 8y ago
  Theoretically 5 months (3 months to is the business panel, 2 months to apply for the visa). Took me 10 months because I didn't quite get everything perfect the first time. If you've worked in SF or NY I'd say you're almost guaranteed acceptance. Otherwise I've heard it's pretty hard to get, and it will come down to your credentials and business.
new_here 8y ago
I'm moving to Denmark in a month. A few questions, if you have time: - Do you have an opinion on the Copenhagen tech scene? Companies, talent, access to funding etc. - How've you found integrating with the Danish culture? - Any suggestions for how to build your network there?
- magduf 8y ago
  I have another question to add to this list (part of your question #2 actually): how is dating in Europe for an American?
  - Casperin 8y ago

Spooky23 8y ago

Another avenue to consider is that Ireland allows citizenship by registration for anyone with a grandparent born in Ireland. It’s a pretty easy process if you qualify, and isn’t a visa, you are immediately recognized. There are some gotchas. The US doesn’t acknowledge dual citizenship, and I believe you must travel in/out of the US with a US passport. If you have a US security clearance or wish to obtain one, you will have a problem as well.

gonsanchezs 8y ago
Both Italy and Spain have the same regime. It can take a year or two to set everything up, but you get citizenship and a passport (not a temp visa)
- dmurray 8y ago
  Italy at least is much more lenient, allowing you to go back as many generations as you like to prove Italian ancestry.
cr1895 8y ago
>The US doesn’t acknowledge dual citizenship How is that a gotcha?
- Spooky23 8y ago
  If you’re in a field where future work may require a security clearance in the US, my understanding (which may be incorrect) is that you have to renounce the second citizenship. You may have other trouble if you travel to a place sanctioned by the US, but not by the second country. There may be others — citizenship is a deeper commitment than a visa.
  - benttoothpaste 8y ago
    It used to be like that but these days it is possible to get a security clearance while retaining the second citizenship provided there is no "conflict of interest". Whether there is a conflict of interest or not will be determined by the government investigation of course.

te_chris 8y ago

For some reason the UK Tech Nation visa isn't filled in. Proper name is Tier 1 (Exceptional Talent). Tech Nation are the 'designated competent body' for the tech specialistaion - it's a generic visa for specialists who've been endorsed by a body in the UK from their industry. It cost something like £600 all up for the actual fees, then they sting you with an NHS surcharge which is now £400 a year I think - another gift to immigrants from Mrs May. They only give about 400-odd of them a year. I've got the visa, I feel like the requirements for this visa should mention that putting together the application process was a shitload of work because it goes to a panel of industry people to be assesed, so is much, much harder to get than a lot of the other ones which are more criteria based. Really, if you want it, you need to convince the panelists that you'll add value to UK tech somehow, beyond just being an employee. Also, don't be like this guy if you don't get it...https://www.technation.sucks/ https://www.technation.sucks/

jpatokal 8y ago
> Tech Nation, the Giant Ape, has no sign of intelligence and is there to destroy beautiful things that go beyond her comprehension ability. Man, somebody's got an axe to grind...
vram22 8y ago
Is this Tier 1 visa the same as, or similar to, the earlier HSMP (Highly Skilled Migrants Program)?
te_chris 8y ago
Oh yeah, can't edit my comment, but you've got the cost wrong. It's a two part application process, so when you apply to get endorsed, it's £456. Then, once you've been endorsed, you can apply for the actual visa using the endorsement you got from tech nation. That's £156. It used to be £268 for each stage, so split 50/50. I'm also very confident there's only 400 a year. 2000 is the total for all the Tier 1 (Exceptional Talent) visas, across all industries and disciplines - so engineering, art, music, etc etc. Details here: https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-exceptional-talent https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-exceptional-talent

jve 8y ago

@gonsanchezs, please add Latvia: https://startuplatvia.eu/startup-visa https://startuplatvia.eu/startup-visa Cost: 100Eur Family: Yes Must be board member Requirements: Not employed at other company or member of another board. Within 6 months 30'000 Eur investment, 18 months another 30'000;

gonsanchezs 8y ago
done

Proven 8y ago

What able person in their right mind would want to go to the EU? It would be helpful to also note various income and other (eg VAT) tax rates so that people can estimate how much of their prospective paycheck would be taken by various governments, from local to the EU.

tyteen4a03 8y ago

Thanks for the list - would love to see which countries are new-grad friendly as well.

cr1895 8y ago
Netherlands is pretty favorable. Get an MSc and you'll have full access to the Dutch job market for a whole year, then once you get a job you can get the highly-skilled migrant permit (with less restrictive criteria I think). After five years and passing some "integration" tests you can get permanent residence. You're disadvantaged in some ways however because you're ineligible for the 30% tax ruling you'd possibly receive if you were recruited from abroad into a highly skilled position. Then again, once you've started working you can do some tax adjusting and deduct a big chunk of your tuition costs from your first working year's taxes. I'm not sure if this will be possible much longer, though.
- joelbluminator 8y ago
  Graduates can receive 30% ruling...
  - cr1895 8y ago
    Only PhD graduates, according to the Belastingdienst. https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/belastingdienst/individuals/living_and_working/working_in_another_country_temporarily/you_are_coming_to_work_in_the_netherlands/30_facility_for_incoming_employees/conditions_30_p_facility/conditions_30_percent_facility https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/... https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/belastingdienst/business/payroll_taxes/you_are_not_established_in_the_netherlands_are_you_required_to_withhold_payroll_taxes/when_you_are_going_to_withhold_payroll_taxes/etraterritorial_costs_and_the_30percent-facility/conditions_attached_to_the_30percent-facility/definition_of_expatriate_employee https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/...
- tyteen4a03 8y ago
  Yeah I'm only getting a Bachelor's.

superwayne 8y ago

You could add Austria to the list: https://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanent-immigration/very-highly-qualified-workers/ https://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanen...

gonsanchezs 8y ago
done

woahitsraj 8y ago

Left the states a few years ago. After a 2 years stint in Toronto at a startup I now work for a Swedish development agency in Gothenburg. 6 weeks of paid vacation, great public transit, and affordable housing all mean I'm never going back to the states. If your considering moving to Europe, I'd highly recommend it. Salary isn't everything in life. Happy to answer any questions

Pandabob 8y ago
How's agency life compared to working at a startup? I'm currently at an agency in Stockholm and I'm thinking if I should go try out what's it like on the other side.
- woahitsraj 8y ago
  It's a very different pace of work. I really loved working at a startup but there were some months where I was working 60-70 hours a week to get something shipped because runway was short. I learned a lot and had a lot of fun but I prefer agency life. Lots of variety of projects, reasonable time budgets, generous time off, and I always get to work on pretty cutting edge technologies.
oblio 8y ago
Affordable housing? I heard that Stockholm is super expensive relative to local salaries.
- woahitsraj 8y ago
  I live in Göteborg but there are other things than relative salary that make Sweden attractive. I think it depends a lot on what you want out of life. The US or Canada might be good for some people. If you want to maximize your salary relative to cost of living, Austin or Seattle may be a good choice.
danilocesar 8y ago
What's so bad about Toronto? Ontario looks like a nice region to live.

Raed667 8y ago

I moved from Tunisia to France 4 years ago, feel free to email, I'd be glad to help with any information. Email is in my profile.

mebassett 8y ago

I'm not familiar with the immigration system of too many other countries. But for the UK this is masking a lot of major differences between visas. For instance, the Tier 2 visa requires an employer to sponsor it. The visa is then tied to that job. That employer needs a license, et cetera. Whereas the tech nation visa allows someone to come to the UK without a job and look, and then change jobs easily.

jakozaur 8y ago

FWIW: Some countries like Poland, don't have a special visa, but regular ones are easily available. Reasonable quick (2 months) with low legal cost.

baybal2 8y ago

I think details on issuance times are needed, some of those can easily be taking half a year or more to get, other are known to routinely miss advertised times (blue card)

franee 8y ago
French tech talent visa (eu blue card) - 1 month for the visa itself. Then 3 months processing for the residency (applied dec got the card in mar).

bjs250 8y ago

Anyone have advice for junior SWEs? I will have a year of co-op experience by the end of 2019, and was thinking of applying from the US to work in Germany or the Netherlands for full-time junior positions.

CalRobert 8y ago

May I suggest an addition? Ireland has a working holiday visa that lets students and recent graduates come live and work for a year with basically no restrictions (no need for work permit, etc.) It's the only EU country I know offering such a fantastic opportunity, at least for US citizens (Canadians, South Koreans, etc. have more options) https://www.dfa.ie/travel/visas/working-holiday-visas/ https://www.dfa.ie/travel/visas/working-holiday-visas/ It's fantastic for someone who probably could get their foot in the door but needs to be physically present in the place to get started. Interviewing from another continent is 100x as hard.

EvagohP5 8y ago

My god, any other poor wrecked like me working in Spain? Earning 50k/year after taxes, and that's not a bad salary in Spain at All

kyranjamie 8y ago

Nice, I'd love to see a list similar to this, that includes tax relief as well — similar to The Netherland's 30% ruling.

CalRobert 8y ago

Another addition suggestion - the Dutch American Friendship Treaty. If you're a US citizen, you've got ~$7500 in savings, and can employ yourself, you can live and work in the Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT I emailed this guy a few times and he was always happy to answer questions - http://shawnindutch.com/ http://shawnindutch.com/

foobarbazetc 8y ago

Which European city has the most SF-like weather? :)

evgen 8y ago
If you are looking for cities with a decent tech scene then for SF weather it is probably London and for peninsula and south bay weather maybe Barcelona.
- foobarbazetc 8y ago
  Nah, don’t care about tech scene since I remote and have a family. It currently costs like 11k/month just to get out of bed in the morning. Been wanting to live in Europe for a while.
  - lgregg 8y ago
    You want to look for Köppen Csb climate cities. You could start researching here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_climate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_climate

scottlocklin 8y ago

Missing: http://www.czechstartups.org/en/start-up-visa/ http://www.czechstartups.org/en/start-up-visa/

robk 8y ago

This should include renewability and pathway to permanence and citizenship. UK tech nation has permanence in 5 and citizenship in 6 which is quite compelling

based2 8y ago

France: Passport talent: multi-year residence card of a foreigner in France https://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.service-public.fr%2Fparticuliers%2Fvosdroits%2FF16922 https://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=... https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16922 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16922

akaralar 8y ago

I’m in the process of applying for Spanish Highly Skilled visa and the company told me that university diploma is required. I wonder where the author of the document got his info on that visa, to make sure whether it’s required or not.