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I personally think this issue is overblown in terms of frequency in the internet outrage echo chamber. So so many of these devices among the people I work with

I personally think this issue is overblown in terms of frequency in the internet outrage echo chamber. So so many of these devices among the people I work with professionally, not a single failure out of anyone I’ve ever met. Yet, reading Apple posts online, you would think every MacBook Pro sold has a failing keyboard.

nicolas_t 8y ago
It's anecdotal but everyone I work with who has a new mbp has had at least one keyboard failure...
michaelbuckbee 8y ago
It seems very much like a usage issue. My friends that take their macbooks to the coffee shop, traveling, use it on the train, etc. all have had keyboard issues. I work from home with an external keyboard and monitor and honestly might as well have a desktop for all the MBP leaves my room (and ancedatally) others with a similar usage pattern aren't having the issues.
- iEchoic 8y ago
  Yeah, this is what it has been in our experience as well. They seem to fail pretty predictably after a lot of heavy usage, but many laptops don't reach that.
- arcticfox 8y ago
  Right, the people that are using their notebook keyboards end up with issues and those that don't...don't
- EpicEng 8y ago
  So people who actually use the keyboard tend to have more issues with said keyboard. Shocking.
  - toyg 8y ago
    I actually use it very very rarely, and still my B key is borked. Believe me, these keyboards are just terrible.
- chipotle_coyote 8y ago
  While this is incredibly anecdotal (e.g., a sample of one), I use my "MacBook Escape" (the non-touchbar 13") at home and in coffee shops and have not had a problem. I've also had two touchbar MBPs at two different jobs and so far have had no issues, although they tend to remain closed except for meetings.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    We use Escapes almost exclusively, and all of them have failed. Mine failed 3 times; in protest, I haven't taken it in for a 3rd repair, but rather switched back to a '15-15".
    - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
      Yikes. I may have just been lucky with mine, then. (I'd pretend I've just been extremely careful, but that is totally not true.)
  - sitkack 8y ago
    Do you think it is the coffee shop usage that keeps it problem free?
tptacek 8y ago
This issue is not overblown. I've used nothing but Macs since 2001, and am now at the third company I've worked at that maintains a substantial fleet of Macbooks. This most recent keyboard debacle is the worst thing that ever happened to the Macbook platform. Literally every single MBP in our office has failed, some of them more than once. The failure mode is always the same: the keyboard gets flaky, then you lose a key for a couple hours until you manage to finagle it back into working, then you lose 1-2 more keys and they never work properly again. The only fix is to turn it over to Apple for several days, which means you can't count on a single MBP per employee, because at any given moment --- with near certainty --- someone's laptop will be taken out for several days. On the plus side, it's a little bit like Chaos Monkey for backups, since you always know you're probably just a day or two away from needing to swap machines. It sounds like a minor thing, I get it! "Sticking keys, oh no!" The problem is: you can't type. The only way to be typing again on your machine is to have it sent away for several days. That's a disaster.
- wilkystyle 8y ago
  I wonder if it could be prone to happenening to laptops ordered from a particular manufacturing center, or from a certain timeframe? I work at a 300+ person company full of 2016/2017 macbooks and personally own a 2017 macbook pro, and I've not witnessed a single problem from that sample size.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Just like your sibling comment finds my claim (on a substantially smaller number of laptops) hard to believe, I find your claim impossible to believe. So either you're right and it's somehow regionalized, or people just aren't reporting the problem. The latter wouldn't surprise me! Lots of people use external keyboards, or just deal with the petty frustration of having to hit certain keys much harder or backspace out the repeats.
    - snowwrestler 8y ago
      For what it's worth, we have about a dozen Mac laptops with the new keyboard in my office and none have keyboard problems (I've asked). It's obviously a serious issue because Apple has created a special program for it. But, it also seems obvious that only some machines are affected, for whatever reason. Maybe some people just type harder than others.
jsjohnst 8y ago
I’m in the same boat. Despite owning 10+ of the affected models directly and working in firms with thousands of affected models, i’ve never heard / seen the problem first hand. I didn’t doubt it’s happening, but wondered how my network has been so lucky. Glad to see Apple acknowledge it, just hope it doesn’t mean a worse keyboard is on the horizon, as I really love the current style.
bogomipz 8y ago
So based on your second hand observations? Not overblown at all. I sold my MacBook Pro and stopped using Macs all together after my third trip in two months to the "genius" bar due to sticking keys. I think a few hours of wasted time for something so basic and fundamental as being able use your keyboard more than justifies some "outrage."
ksec 8y ago
Apple unofficially / officially said the failure rate was less then 5%. There was later some investigative work by a few Apple media that repair at Apple Retail and third party to confirm that figure. Failure ( Or Repair Rate ) or roughly 3 - 4%. You see, that is the problem. I expect Keyboard failure to be LESS then 0.03% - 0.04%. Thanks to Apple, people finally realise how important the keyboard is, especially in these days and age, where Mac / PC are more for professional and business / work usage. 4% Repair meant 4 in every 100 Mac, even 0.04% is 4 in every 10,000. For Keyboard! For every IBM / Lenovo, Dell, HP single Keyboard failure I have seen in the past decade of my professional career, there is like 10 MacBook Keyboard failed in the past 2-3 years. It doesn't mean other brand don't fail, but they are much less often, 5 times cheaper to repair, and many had three year warranty included. While All Mac only comes with a single year warranty. I wish Apple bump the price by a small percentage, and include at least 2 years warranty, or even Apple Care by default. ( I know in EU this is included already ) We don't upgrade our Mac every 2 - 3 years any more. They have much longer life time. This will hopefully force Apple to think about design that is easier to repair for themselves, and much higher reliability so they do less repair.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  It’s included in New Zealand too, due to the consumer guarantees act, a fantastic piece of legislation. Possibly summarising to the point of error “a purchase should last as long as a reasonable person would expect”.
  - indemnity 8y ago
    That’s great, but I do I get from that to a number that I as a business (to know my obligations) or I as a consumer (to know my rights) can use? Does every instance need to be tested in court? Seems ripe for unpredictable outcomes.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      I don’t know the answer to that. Electronics like phones seem to get a minimum of 2 years and extended warranties are generally not worth buying here, though some do extend for 10+ years.
mgadams3 8y ago
I have personally had my keyboard fixed 4 times and across my company it's been nearly a dozen. It's a huge pain to have to be out of computer for that repair time and deal with it in the first place. It's a huge problem.
amorphid 8y ago
One of the keys on my MacBook Air keyboard broke about 6 months ago. The busted key made it unusable as a laptop, and I don't need/want a desktop (aka attach it to a keyboard & monitor). Authorized Apple repairs were a few hudred bucks. I was strongly considering buying another Mac, but that seemed like such a waste over a single busted key. I decided to try one of those aftermarket key repair kits, and it actually worked. I spent less than $20 to fix it. I'm glad I tried! If I hadn't been able to fix it, I would have been super vocal about how I had to trash my laptop over a busted key on a keyboard, so I can understand why people who sound upset.
edanm 8y ago
I don't know if adding another post will convince you. But for what it's worth, I'm also a long time Mac user, and this new MacBook has had multiple keyboard failures, just as tptacek describes. I've had about 5 different keys fail on me, each time for a few days, until a didn't key takes their place.
madeofpalk 8y ago
The failure rate may be low, but anecdotally it's significantly higher than previous models.

nicolas_t 8y ago

It's anecdotal but everyone I work with who has a new mbp has had at least one keyboard failure...

michaelbuckbee 8y ago

It seems very much like a usage issue. My friends that take their macbooks to the coffee shop, traveling, use it on the train, etc. all have had keyboard issues. I work from home with an external keyboard and monitor and honestly might as well have a desktop for all the MBP leaves my room (and ancedatally) others with a similar usage pattern aren't having the issues.

iEchoic 8y ago
Yeah, this is what it has been in our experience as well. They seem to fail pretty predictably after a lot of heavy usage, but many laptops don't reach that.
arcticfox 8y ago
Right, the people that are using their notebook keyboards end up with issues and those that don't...don't
EpicEng 8y ago
So people who actually use the keyboard tend to have more issues with said keyboard. Shocking.
- toyg 8y ago
  I actually use it very very rarely, and still my B key is borked. Believe me, these keyboards are just terrible.
chipotle_coyote 8y ago
While this is incredibly anecdotal (e.g., a sample of one), I use my "MacBook Escape" (the non-touchbar 13") at home and in coffee shops and have not had a problem. I've also had two touchbar MBPs at two different jobs and so far have had no issues, although they tend to remain closed except for meetings.
- tptacek 8y ago
  We use Escapes almost exclusively, and all of them have failed. Mine failed 3 times; in protest, I haven't taken it in for a 3rd repair, but rather switched back to a '15-15".
  - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
    Yikes. I may have just been lucky with mine, then. (I'd pretend I've just been extremely careful, but that is totally not true.)
- sitkack 8y ago
  Do you think it is the coffee shop usage that keeps it problem free?

tptacek 8y ago

This issue is not overblown. I've used nothing but Macs since 2001, and am now at the third company I've worked at that maintains a substantial fleet of Macbooks. This most recent keyboard debacle is the worst thing that ever happened to the Macbook platform. Literally every single MBP in our office has failed, some of them more than once. The failure mode is always the same: the keyboard gets flaky, then you lose a key for a couple hours until you manage to finagle it back into working, then you lose 1-2 more keys and they never work properly again. The only fix is to turn it over to Apple for several days, which means you can't count on a single MBP per employee, because at any given moment --- with near certainty --- someone's laptop will be taken out for several days. On the plus side, it's a little bit like Chaos Monkey for backups, since you always know you're probably just a day or two away from needing to swap machines. It sounds like a minor thing, I get it! "Sticking keys, oh no!" The problem is: you can't type. The only way to be typing again on your machine is to have it sent away for several days. That's a disaster.

wilkystyle 8y ago
I wonder if it could be prone to happenening to laptops ordered from a particular manufacturing center, or from a certain timeframe? I work at a 300+ person company full of 2016/2017 macbooks and personally own a 2017 macbook pro, and I've not witnessed a single problem from that sample size.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Just like your sibling comment finds my claim (on a substantially smaller number of laptops) hard to believe, I find your claim impossible to believe. So either you're right and it's somehow regionalized, or people just aren't reporting the problem. The latter wouldn't surprise me! Lots of people use external keyboards, or just deal with the petty frustration of having to hit certain keys much harder or backspace out the repeats.
  - snowwrestler 8y ago
    For what it's worth, we have about a dozen Mac laptops with the new keyboard in my office and none have keyboard problems (I've asked). It's obviously a serious issue because Apple has created a special program for it. But, it also seems obvious that only some machines are affected, for whatever reason. Maybe some people just type harder than others.

jsjohnst 8y ago

I’m in the same boat. Despite owning 10+ of the affected models directly and working in firms with thousands of affected models, i’ve never heard / seen the problem first hand. I didn’t doubt it’s happening, but wondered how my network has been so lucky. Glad to see Apple acknowledge it, just hope it doesn’t mean a worse keyboard is on the horizon, as I really love the current style.

bogomipz 8y ago

So based on your second hand observations? Not overblown at all. I sold my MacBook Pro and stopped using Macs all together after my third trip in two months to the "genius" bar due to sticking keys. I think a few hours of wasted time for something so basic and fundamental as being able use your keyboard more than justifies some "outrage."

ksec 8y ago

Apple unofficially / officially said the failure rate was less then 5%. There was later some investigative work by a few Apple media that repair at Apple Retail and third party to confirm that figure. Failure ( Or Repair Rate ) or roughly 3 - 4%. You see, that is the problem. I expect Keyboard failure to be LESS then 0.03% - 0.04%. Thanks to Apple, people finally realise how important the keyboard is, especially in these days and age, where Mac / PC are more for professional and business / work usage. 4% Repair meant 4 in every 100 Mac, even 0.04% is 4 in every 10,000. For Keyboard! For every IBM / Lenovo, Dell, HP single Keyboard failure I have seen in the past decade of my professional career, there is like 10 MacBook Keyboard failed in the past 2-3 years. It doesn't mean other brand don't fail, but they are much less often, 5 times cheaper to repair, and many had three year warranty included. While All Mac only comes with a single year warranty. I wish Apple bump the price by a small percentage, and include at least 2 years warranty, or even Apple Care by default. ( I know in EU this is included already ) We don't upgrade our Mac every 2 - 3 years any more. They have much longer life time. This will hopefully force Apple to think about design that is easier to repair for themselves, and much higher reliability so they do less repair.

lostlogin 8y ago
It’s included in New Zealand too, due to the consumer guarantees act, a fantastic piece of legislation. Possibly summarising to the point of error “a purchase should last as long as a reasonable person would expect”.
- indemnity 8y ago
  That’s great, but I do I get from that to a number that I as a business (to know my obligations) or I as a consumer (to know my rights) can use? Does every instance need to be tested in court? Seems ripe for unpredictable outcomes.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    I don’t know the answer to that. Electronics like phones seem to get a minimum of 2 years and extended warranties are generally not worth buying here, though some do extend for 10+ years.

mgadams3 8y ago

I have personally had my keyboard fixed 4 times and across my company it's been nearly a dozen. It's a huge pain to have to be out of computer for that repair time and deal with it in the first place. It's a huge problem.

amorphid 8y ago

One of the keys on my MacBook Air keyboard broke about 6 months ago. The busted key made it unusable as a laptop, and I don't need/want a desktop (aka attach it to a keyboard & monitor). Authorized Apple repairs were a few hudred bucks. I was strongly considering buying another Mac, but that seemed like such a waste over a single busted key. I decided to try one of those aftermarket key repair kits, and it actually worked. I spent less than $20 to fix it. I'm glad I tried! If I hadn't been able to fix it, I would have been super vocal about how I had to trash my laptop over a busted key on a keyboard, so I can understand why people who sound upset.

edanm 8y ago

I don't know if adding another post will convince you. But for what it's worth, I'm also a long time Mac user, and this new MacBook has had multiple keyboard failures, just as tptacek describes. I've had about 5 different keys fail on me, each time for a few days, until a didn't key takes their place.

madeofpalk 8y ago

The failure rate may be low, but anecdotally it's significantly higher than previous models.