15 ms·

Or jaywalking will become more strictly enforced with policing or physical barriers. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/4/2/automated-vehicles https://ww

by splouk 8y ago

Or jaywalking will become more strictly enforced with policing or physical barriers. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/4/2/automated-vehicles https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/4/2/automated-vehic...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
vinay427 8y ago
We do it for many pedestrian crossings across railroad tracks, so it's not unprecedented, but obviously on a different scale.
bryanlarsen 8y ago
That's a very good argument but I don't think it will come to pass, for this reason: http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences/cutting_off http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences/cutting_off There's something about driving that turns ordinary people into assholes. I've observed it in myself. Bus passengers are much more considerate, and I think that passengers in self-driving vehicles will behave like passengers, not like drivers. So if a pedestrian cuts them off they'll just shrug and keep playing their game or whatever they're doing. I hope.
- ksenzee 8y ago
  My theory is that people act like jerks behind the wheel, and come across as jerks even when they're not, because drivers have no way to apologize or ask please or do any other polite thing. All they can do is honk the horn, which is like yelling "HEY!!" If there were a communication mechanism for "excuse me, the light is green now" and "oops, so sorry, didn't see you there" driving would be easier and more pleasant.
  - rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
    Dangerous driving can result in damage, injury, or death. That is why people are so volatile behind the wheel. I don’t think there is any system of communication that can prevent or stop road rage. Dampen, maybe, but that’s about it.
    - eric_h 8y ago
      If the internet has taught us anything, it's that anything that facilitates conversation facilitates all types and styles of conversation. I'd posit that a more sophisticated inter-car communication system would add at least one new road rage incident for every one it prevents.
  - SmirkingRevenge 8y ago
    They often find other ways to express their jerkiness, like stepping on the gas, swerving around you and cutting you off, or aggressively tailgating, or you know... hand gestures.
  - panic 8y ago
    Exactly! Every communication you try to make in a car can be interpreted as aggressiveness, which escalates anger on both sides. You need a way to de-escalate.
    - paulific 8y ago
      Yes, in Japan there is a custom of briefly tooting the horn to say thank you (for example when someone lets you in in front of them) and they still have problems when people have different ideas of what constitutes "too long".
      - patrickdavey 8y ago
        Hah! I come from Ireland where the custom is also a brief flash of the emergency indicators to say "thanks". I then moved to New Zealand where they toot the horn to say thanks. I was most confused when I got tooted (rude in Ireland) for letting someone pass easily. I was like * buddy ;) then I realized what was going on, well, eventually anyway :)
        lttlrck 8y ago
        Ha. In Boston I used to get frustrated at oncoming drivers flashing their lights at me. What was I doing wrong? Are my headlights misaligned? Is something falling off? Do I know you? Eventually I worked it out: they were warning me of a police cruiser ahead. In a state known for Massholes it’s surprisingly unjerkish.
  - zamber 8y ago
    In Poland there's an unwritten custom of saying thanks by flashing emergency stop lights for two ticks. The most common use case is when someone lets you through when they don't have to. On freeways the same is used by cars coming from the opposite direction if there's a radar ahead. Still, in peak hours pretty much everyone is a dick, even usually chill Uber drivers. Edit: it's also used as a "sorry" signal too. Also, this is not local. I've seen it used all around the country.
    - bencoder 8y ago
      Also seen in London
      - scaryclam 8y ago
        And the rest of the UK :)
    - mantas 8y ago
      Definitely not local. Pretty much a given in Lithuania too. If someone lets you in etc, it's just rude to not flash emergency lights. Even if somebody squeezed in like total dickhead during a rush hour We use headlights to warn of friends waiting on the other side of the bush though.
    - themaninthedark 8y ago
      Japan as well
  - rhacker 8y ago
    I feel like in large cities the majority of drivers actually practice "mean" driving techniques - tailgating, lane protection (preventing people from merging-in when they have to), zoom-ups near contest areas, loud-music in communities, lane weaving.. I've left the bay area a long time ago now, but it's amazing when you live outside of that a couple years how awful people are behind the wheel. I would call it passive-aggressive behavior and it is really really bad to ones mental health. Bay area, Denver, Portland, Seattle there's a few others out west here - but make no mistake, the actions people take while driving is 100% actual jerk, not mistaken jerk.
  - tlrobinson 8y ago
    Paradoxically, in some places horns are used much more liberally and if you spend much time there that's the feeling you start getting from a honk. Like a "hey just wanted to let you know I'm behind you".
    - c22 8y ago
      When I travelled from India to Nepal I noticed that both places had liberal horn usage, but in Nepal almost all of the horns were musical. They felt much more pleasant than the same custom in New Delhi.
- bsder 8y ago
  > There's something about driving that turns ordinary people into assholes. Game theory with no further interaction so no consequence to defecting other than the immediate. The problem is that there is always somebody willing to be a jerk to save 2 minutes since nobody wanted to be stuck in traffic. The only defense against that is "Do unto before done unto" and that turns everybody into jerks.
marnett 8y ago
if this happens i will surely protest self-driving cars. cities should be built for pedestrians, not cars.
- zdragnar 8y ago
  Don't protest self-driving cars, protest the laws you feel shouldn't apply to you. After all, there are plenty of other reasons jaywalking laws might become more strictly enforced.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    The term "jaywalking" was a slur invented by car companies to steal rights from pedestrians. If cars can't avoid people, the cars need to be separated by physical barriers or removed.
    - zdragnar 8y ago
      This is in no way contradicting my point. A pedestrian may illegally have entered a road, but still have right-of-way, and self driving cars will need to account for that. However, protesting self driving cars will not change whether walking in the street is legal, since it already is not. Therefore, whether you do so and get fined by police is entirely up to their discretion, which could change at any time for any reason. If you want it to be legal, protest the illegality, not the car company.
  - jkFeiwi 8y ago
    If I'm not mistaken, car makers first lobbied to outlaw jaywalking. So if it's anything like the past, protesting self-driving cars and protesting the laws will amount to the same thing.
    - zdragnar 8y ago
      The laws are already on the books. Police could choose to apply heavier enforcement regardless of whether or not self driving cars become a thing. If the law itself is unjust or inappropriate, protest the law.
skrause 8y ago
If stricter enforcement of jaywalking laws is required for self-driving cars to work, you can already forget about those cars in almost all other countries where jaywalking laws don't even exist and certainly won't be accepted in the future.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
someonewhocar3s 8y ago
Camera's, bro. Automated micro-ticketing on facial & misdemeanour detection.
pretendscholar 8y ago
There's something really repulsive about this solution that I can't really eloquently articulate. Every advance in technology seems to further restrict and control people.
princeb 8y ago
or less for increased safety: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space
8bitsrule 8y ago
The world is already overly car-centered. If cars can't see and stop for people, then they've become an expansion of that problem. I live in a place where, once you're off the curb on corners where there's no light, cars are required to slow/stop for you. Many people will voluntarily do that even if you're NOT off the curb yet. It feels like a courtesy. The scenario you're describing, OTOH, feels even more alienating than what we're already suffering. What in the hell gives you, sitting on a seat in a car, more right to travel through a space than a walking human being?
- icebraining 8y ago
  Many people will voluntarily do that even if you're NOT off the curb yet. It feels like a courtesy. Eh, as a pedestrian, I hate that. I have to conscientiously turn my back to avoid impeding the traffic when I don't want to pass! Still, I agree with you; self-driving cars that can't be trusted to slow down and stop for pedestrians should not pass the licensing requirements. And not just for humans, either; we're not going to teach other animals to follow traffic laws any time soon. I've already seen too many cats killed by assholes speeding over the limit on residential streets.

by splouk 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

vinay427 8y ago

We do it for many pedestrian crossings across railroad tracks, so it's not unprecedented, but obviously on a different scale.

bryanlarsen 8y ago

That's a very good argument but I don't think it will come to pass, for this reason: http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences/cutting_off http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences/cutting_off There's something about driving that turns ordinary people into assholes. I've observed it in myself. Bus passengers are much more considerate, and I think that passengers in self-driving vehicles will behave like passengers, not like drivers. So if a pedestrian cuts them off they'll just shrug and keep playing their game or whatever they're doing. I hope.

ksenzee 8y ago
My theory is that people act like jerks behind the wheel, and come across as jerks even when they're not, because drivers have no way to apologize or ask please or do any other polite thing. All they can do is honk the horn, which is like yelling "HEY!!" If there were a communication mechanism for "excuse me, the light is green now" and "oops, so sorry, didn't see you there" driving would be easier and more pleasant.
- rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
  Dangerous driving can result in damage, injury, or death. That is why people are so volatile behind the wheel. I don’t think there is any system of communication that can prevent or stop road rage. Dampen, maybe, but that’s about it.
  - eric_h 8y ago
    If the internet has taught us anything, it's that anything that facilitates conversation facilitates all types and styles of conversation. I'd posit that a more sophisticated inter-car communication system would add at least one new road rage incident for every one it prevents.
- SmirkingRevenge 8y ago
  They often find other ways to express their jerkiness, like stepping on the gas, swerving around you and cutting you off, or aggressively tailgating, or you know... hand gestures.
- panic 8y ago
  Exactly! Every communication you try to make in a car can be interpreted as aggressiveness, which escalates anger on both sides. You need a way to de-escalate.
  - paulific 8y ago
    Yes, in Japan there is a custom of briefly tooting the horn to say thank you (for example when someone lets you in in front of them) and they still have problems when people have different ideas of what constitutes "too long".
    - patrickdavey 8y ago
      Hah! I come from Ireland where the custom is also a brief flash of the emergency indicators to say "thanks". I then moved to New Zealand where they toot the horn to say thanks. I was most confused when I got tooted (rude in Ireland) for letting someone pass easily. I was like * buddy ;) then I realized what was going on, well, eventually anyway :)
      - lttlrck 8y ago
        Ha. In Boston I used to get frustrated at oncoming drivers flashing their lights at me. What was I doing wrong? Are my headlights misaligned? Is something falling off? Do I know you? Eventually I worked it out: they were warning me of a police cruiser ahead. In a state known for Massholes it’s surprisingly unjerkish.
- zamber 8y ago
  In Poland there's an unwritten custom of saying thanks by flashing emergency stop lights for two ticks. The most common use case is when someone lets you through when they don't have to. On freeways the same is used by cars coming from the opposite direction if there's a radar ahead. Still, in peak hours pretty much everyone is a dick, even usually chill Uber drivers. Edit: it's also used as a "sorry" signal too. Also, this is not local. I've seen it used all around the country.
  - bencoder 8y ago
    Also seen in London
    - scaryclam 8y ago
      And the rest of the UK :)
  - mantas 8y ago
    Definitely not local. Pretty much a given in Lithuania too. If someone lets you in etc, it's just rude to not flash emergency lights. Even if somebody squeezed in like total dickhead during a rush hour We use headlights to warn of friends waiting on the other side of the bush though.
  - themaninthedark 8y ago
    Japan as well
- rhacker 8y ago
  I feel like in large cities the majority of drivers actually practice "mean" driving techniques - tailgating, lane protection (preventing people from merging-in when they have to), zoom-ups near contest areas, loud-music in communities, lane weaving.. I've left the bay area a long time ago now, but it's amazing when you live outside of that a couple years how awful people are behind the wheel. I would call it passive-aggressive behavior and it is really really bad to ones mental health. Bay area, Denver, Portland, Seattle there's a few others out west here - but make no mistake, the actions people take while driving is 100% actual jerk, not mistaken jerk.
- tlrobinson 8y ago
  Paradoxically, in some places horns are used much more liberally and if you spend much time there that's the feeling you start getting from a honk. Like a "hey just wanted to let you know I'm behind you".
  - c22 8y ago
    When I travelled from India to Nepal I noticed that both places had liberal horn usage, but in Nepal almost all of the horns were musical. They felt much more pleasant than the same custom in New Delhi.
bsder 8y ago
> There's something about driving that turns ordinary people into assholes. Game theory with no further interaction so no consequence to defecting other than the immediate. The problem is that there is always somebody willing to be a jerk to save 2 minutes since nobody wanted to be stuck in traffic. The only defense against that is "Do unto before done unto" and that turns everybody into jerks.

marnett 8y ago

if this happens i will surely protest self-driving cars. cities should be built for pedestrians, not cars.

zdragnar 8y ago
Don't protest self-driving cars, protest the laws you feel shouldn't apply to you. After all, there are plenty of other reasons jaywalking laws might become more strictly enforced.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  The term "jaywalking" was a slur invented by car companies to steal rights from pedestrians. If cars can't avoid people, the cars need to be separated by physical barriers or removed.
  - zdragnar 8y ago
    This is in no way contradicting my point. A pedestrian may illegally have entered a road, but still have right-of-way, and self driving cars will need to account for that. However, protesting self driving cars will not change whether walking in the street is legal, since it already is not. Therefore, whether you do so and get fined by police is entirely up to their discretion, which could change at any time for any reason. If you want it to be legal, protest the illegality, not the car company.
- jkFeiwi 8y ago
  If I'm not mistaken, car makers first lobbied to outlaw jaywalking. So if it's anything like the past, protesting self-driving cars and protesting the laws will amount to the same thing.
  - zdragnar 8y ago
    The laws are already on the books. Police could choose to apply heavier enforcement regardless of whether or not self driving cars become a thing. If the law itself is unjust or inappropriate, protest the law.

skrause 8y ago

If stricter enforcement of jaywalking laws is required for self-driving cars to work, you can already forget about those cars in almost all other countries where jaywalking laws don't even exist and certainly won't be accepted in the future.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

someonewhocar3s 8y ago

Camera's, bro. Automated micro-ticketing on facial & misdemeanour detection.

pretendscholar 8y ago

There's something really repulsive about this solution that I can't really eloquently articulate. Every advance in technology seems to further restrict and control people.

princeb 8y ago

or less for increased safety: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

8bitsrule 8y ago

The world is already overly car-centered. If cars can't see and stop for people, then they've become an expansion of that problem. I live in a place where, once you're off the curb on corners where there's no light, cars are required to slow/stop for you. Many people will voluntarily do that even if you're NOT off the curb yet. It feels like a courtesy. The scenario you're describing, OTOH, feels even more alienating than what we're already suffering. What in the hell gives you, sitting on a seat in a car, more right to travel through a space than a walking human being?

icebraining 8y ago
Many people will voluntarily do that even if you're NOT off the curb yet. It feels like a courtesy. Eh, as a pedestrian, I hate that. I have to conscientiously turn my back to avoid impeding the traffic when I don't want to pass! Still, I agree with you; self-driving cars that can't be trusted to slow down and stop for pedestrians should not pass the licensing requirements. And not just for humans, either; we're not going to teach other animals to follow traffic laws any time soon. I've already seen too many cats killed by assholes speeding over the limit on residential streets.