7 ms·

I am leaving llvm

214 points by cvittal 8y ago

tailrecursion 8y ago
What I see here and elsewhere are people talking about engineering a just society who have no knowledge or experience in engineering just societies.
stillkicking 8y ago
"[flagged]" Yet another thread that demonstrates the social justice movement's harmful influence is flagged into invisibility. Time to cite Fredrik DeBoer I guess: >“Social justice” is an awkward term for an immensely important project, perhaps the most important project, which is to make the world a more equitable, fair, and compassionate place. >But the project for social justice has been captured by an elite strata of post-collegiate, digitally-enabled children of privilege, who do not pursue that project as an end, but rather use it as a means with which to compete, socially and professionally, with each other. >In that use, they value not speech or actions that actually result in a better world, but rather those that result in greater social reward, which in the digital world is obvious and explicit. That means that they prefer engagement that creates a) outrage and b) jokes, rather than engagement that leads to positive change. >In this disregard for actual political success, they reveal their own privilege, as it’s only the privileged who could ever have so little regard for actual, material progress. As long as they are allowed to co-opt the movement for social justice for their own personal aggrandizement, the world will not improve, not for women, people of color, gay and transgender people, or the poor. Remember when node.js forked into ayo.js? Well, maybe not, because you weren't allowed to see it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078995
- djsumdog 8y ago
  I saw this on Lobster and wanted to come here to see the comments and found this. This is really sad. It shouldn't be flagged at all. It's about tech culture, the e-mail is very well written and it brings up valid things we should talk about as a community. I've had my own posts flagged on Lobster as well, so they're not a bastion by any means. I know it's their platform and the mods can do what they want, but it still bothers me we're silencing conversation. Meanwhile on platforms like Gab/Voat, you just get insane amounts of bat-shit crazy. We're losing the moderate people in our society to extreme left/rightness of platforms.
  - stillkicking 8y ago
    Yep. The extremeness of e.g. The_Donald on reddit is a direct result of how hostile r/politics was to anyone who didn't support Hillary. Sadly, I think the far left actually likes it this way. They want unreasonable boogiemen they can point to and demonize, so their own echo chambers can pretend to be the moderate ones.
YuukiRey 8y ago
"The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2)." I think this paragraph says more about the author of the post and his true intentions than the rest of the post.
- kgabis 8y ago
  Could you explain what you think his true intentions are? Because to me it does look both sexist and racist.
windoze10 8y ago
Yeah, I'm Asian, it's very funny to me to see a racist-to-the-core organization pretending to be the guardians of the diversity. They can go F themselves.
modbait 8y ago
This will happen more and more, though many will not be as open about their concerns, for fear of retaliation. I grew up in a time and place where many took great steps to profess that they were the "good" people and to ensure that everyone knew that they appropriately despised the "bad" people (albeit with love). I will not be a part of a return to that.
- ggm 8y ago
  ... posted from a name called modbait "I see what you did there" ...
rhapsodic 8y ago
The community change I cannot take is how the social injustice movement has permeated it. When I joined llvm no one asked or cared about my religion or political view. We all seemed committed to just writing a good compiler framework. This makes me sad.
- chickenfries 8y ago
  This comment made me think that someone had disparaged them for their political beliefs or religion, but after reading that doesn't seem to have happened, unless they left it out for some reason, but that would be odd. In fact, if I understand the letter correctly, the straw that broke OP's back was this: > https://www.outreachy.org/apply/eligibility/ https://www.outreachy.org/apply/eligibility/ To which I say... really? Ok, that's too bad that you don't want to be a contributor anymore because there is a diversity scholarship... somehow I don't see that as a long term problem for LLVM though.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - candiodari 8y ago
    Nope. People have publicly declared that out of fear of the social justice movement they will ban people, refuse to communicate as soon as disagreement with the prevailing political view manifests. That's what's in the CoC that's objectionable. > made me think that someone had disparaged them for their political beliefs Funny how you do that in a post that disparages him for his political beliefs. But your post is nothing compared with the attacks elsewhere in this thread. Scroll down and read a bit, and you'll see plenty of that happening. Before you say "but it's not about excluding people", let me remind you about James Damore and Brendan Eich. Those were valuable people, attacked and damaged because of their (in Damore's case PERCEIVED, not real) political beliefs. We all know that the majority of Hacker News supported those actions (although how many supported them because they were afraid to be attacked, and how many actually supported those actions is not clear). And why do people do this ? Attack others for political reasons ? Most, of course, because they're afraid of SJWs. Because of what happened to Damore and Eich and many others. But SJWs, ostensibly, do this for tolerance of course ! THAT's why they're EXCLUDING people for their political views. For tolerance. Alaternative view: the SJWs are just socialites looking to exclude others, that's all. Aggressive and ... not interested in the only thing that matters : technically interesting work. I commend this person for speaking up.
21 8y ago
So that org doesn't want US white males, asians and indians (from India). Fine, if you are leftist this is expected of you today. More interestingly, being a gay man doesn't qualify you (but being a trans-gender man does). So gay man are not considered worthy of special attention.
pasabagi 8y ago
Ridiculous. This is the kind of weak thinker who would have looked at Jim Crow's South and said it was egalitarian. Formal discrimination is not the same as concrete discrimination.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  You call it ridiculous, I see it as the beginning of a movement to make open source project contributions invite only. The drive for “inclusion” is turning cancerous. “Social justice bikeshedding”. I’m pro social tolerance, but it’s coming off the rails in the tech world, with active discrimination explained away as progress.
  - mfer 8y ago
    > welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and identities. Different people have different interpretations of support. Does it mean you support people even when you disagree with them or do you support their beliefs? I've been doing tech conferences for a long time. I initially learned how to do tech conferences without things outside the tech being part of the conference. This kept the focus on the tech and including people into that
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - pasabagi 8y ago
    I don't see how that's connected. Honestly. I just see a guy throwing his toys out the pram because somebody is being explicitly discriminatory. It's ridiculous because real, damaging discrimination is rarely explicit, almost never public, and almost always far more significant than being excluded from a mentorship program.
    - guitarbill 8y ago
      Wait, so this guy is standing up against what he sees as discrimination, and the argument is “ignore him, it’s not the bad kind of discrimination”?
GiorgioG 8y ago
These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from smart people. Why can't it be as simple as that?
- morvita 8y ago
  I, too, dream of a world where I can work with smart people without regard to their race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it is naive to think that we are already living in that world. Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black people working in the office. One of them is the receptionist. If we assume that there are no racial differences in technical ability, then the demographics of my office should roughly mirror the demographics of the surrounding community. Oakland is 28% black (according to the 2010 census), meaning in a fair, unbiased system we should have roughly 30-35 black people working in the office. I am sure that no hiring manager has set out to exclude black people from their postings, but there are centuries of history and deeply ingrained biases that have led to a severe under-representation of African-Americans in this industry, same with every other minority. Until we are truly operating on a level playing field, I am 100% in favour of scholarships based on giving under-represented minorities more opportunities. It is not discrimination to exclude white men from these scholarships. It is recognizing the centuries of privilege we have had and saying that we want give other people the opportunities we have be given simply by existing.
  - jochung 8y ago
    "Centuries of privilege" is the kind of idiocy only a sheltered American suburbanite could come up with. A century ago millions of young white men were too busy dying in trenches and being gassed to death with mustard gas in a war none of them could vote on. Children worked on the field, in factories, and in coal mines, like their fathers were expected to. And yes, women stayed home and took care of the kids because without electricity, plumbing, appliances, refrigeration and cheap groceries, that was actually a laborious full time job, and people were poor. Not to mention that getting through child birth and infant mortality was a blessing for both mother and child. None of them were given opportunities simply by existing. On the other hand, providing scholarships to specific ethnicities, or creating special women-only pathways to entry, that is exactly that. What people like Damore have tried to point out is that expecting demographics and sentiment within a field to match the general population, or else the "playing field" is not level, is an unwarranted assumption. It also puts the blame for actually society wide issues on a small group of people who had nothing to do with it. If you want more black people in tech, start by addressing the way the US school system is stratified entirely by social class. Maybe you'll see a difference, and maybe that IQ gap will shrink. Maybe it won't, and what new "leveling" policies will you want to introduce then? Don't push out or disadvantage others out of misplaced revenge, and don't cite your American tunnel vision as justification.
gnachman 8y ago
Christ, what an asshole
shifter 8y ago
Gotta love how clattner shuts down the thread. He's a nice guy but he does have a strong authoritarian side that gets triggered by the typical SJW causes (even in small talk about silly things).
- shifter 8y ago
  To the downvoters: I'm a liberal speaking from years of working with him in meat space. You may not like what I said but it's accurate.
  - pulisse 8y ago
    Lattner's message, in its entirety, was: This list is for technical compiler and tools discussions, lets not turn a thread about Rafael’s personal decision into a rant about CoC’s which we have been through before. If you’d like to have a productive discussion about CoC topics, then please start a new thread and use a respectful and productive tone. If you're being downvoted for a tendentious characterization of the thread, it looks justified.
    - microcolonel 8y ago
      > ...a rant about CoC’s which we have been through before. I mean, seems like Dr. Lattner (with all due respect) wants to suppress discussion of the CoC, despite the fact that discussion of the CoC is warranted and apparently crucial to retaining talent. The CoC has a direct effect on this very mailing list, so it seems like it would be up for discussion there, if anywhere.
      - pulisse 8y ago
        He explicitly--quoted right there in the comment you're responding to--invited a thread dedicated to discussion of the CoC. How from that do you infer that he's trying to suppress discussion of the topic?
- jlebar 8y ago
  Is this the email in question? http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122934.html http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122934.htm... Are you saying this is authoritarian and indicative of his being triggered, or are you saying that this sort of fits in with a mental model of him you've developed based on other experiences?
jakobegger 8y ago
Here’s something I don’t understand. If all you want is to contribute code, why not do that? How does it harm you if someone tries to increase diversity? LLVM is a big project; there’s surely enough space for different people. Some people will focus on the technical bits; others will focus on legal issues, and others can focus on social issues. What’s the problem with that? Why do so many people become defensive when a project adopts a code of conduct? If you really only care about building a great project with smart people, why do you care about the code of conduct? Just carry on with your work! If the code of conduct actually gets in the way of working, please speak up, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.
- stillkicking 8y ago
  Because a code of conduct is just a foot in the door. It provides a pretense for people to seize power and start policing others in the community. That would be only one objection, but as always happens, the rules are not actually what is written, as the OP rightly pointed out. Another recent example was the Rod Vagg drama in node.js... he became the target of ire for tweeting an article about Neurodiversity and Free Speech. Does that sound like something that should go against any code of conduct that aims to be more welcoming and create diversity? Of course not, unless you subscribe to Social Justice, where everything is a dogwhistle and an opportunity to name and shame others. The person who was leading this charge was then discovered to have a tirade filled twitter stream full of spiteful and hateful language aimed at white people and men. Which apparently did not violate any CoC. The hypocrisy is obvious to anyone who digs past the surface, and the fact that well-meaning bystanders are effortlessly recruited into defending this petty and destructive behavior is what makes it so pernicious.
  - mylons 8y ago
    the person you're referencing to with the RAMPANT misandry on their twitter feed is just intolerable and tiring.
    - sanxiyn 8y ago
      If so, rvagg should be criticized for those tweets, not for a reasonable article on neurodiversity.
amyjess 8y ago
He gives this as his reason for leaving: > Since agreement [to the code of conduct] is required to take part in the conferences, I am no longer able to attend. For reference, this is LLVM's code of conduct: https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide by it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or being forced to interact them for e.g. code review purposes. His departure is regrettable, but it is for the best that he's chosen to remove himself from the project if he can't bring himself to abide by it. > Be friendly and patient. > Be welcoming. We strive to be a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and identities. This includes, but is not limited to members of any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, colour, immigration status, social and economic class, educational level, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size, family status, political belief, religion or lack thereof, and mental and physical ability. > Be considerate. Your work will be used by other people, and you in turn will depend on the work of others. Any decision you take will affect users and colleagues, and you should take those consequences into account. Remember that we’re a world-wide community, so you might not be communicating in someone else’s primary language. > Be respectful. Not all of us will agree all the time, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behavior and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It’s important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. Members of the LLVM community should be respectful when dealing with other members as well as with people outside the LLVM community. > Be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others. Do not insult or put down other participants. Harassment and other exclusionary behavior aren’t acceptable. This includes, but is not limited to: > Violent threats or language directed against another person. > Discriminatory jokes and language. > Posting sexually explicit or violent material. > Posting (or threatening to post) other people’s personally identifying information (“doxing”). > Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms. > Unwelcome sexual attention. > Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior. > In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop. Persisting in such behavior after being asked to stop is considered harassment. > When we disagree, try to understand why. Disagreements, both social and technical, happen all the time and LLVM is no exception. It is important that we resolve disagreements and differing views constructively. Remember that we’re different. The strength of LLVM comes from its varied community, people from a wide range of backgrounds. Different people have different perspectives on issues. Being unable to understand why someone holds a viewpoint doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere. Instead, focus on helping to resolve issues and learning from mistakes.
michaellarabel 8y ago
For those curious about his contributor statistics, he was actually the fifth most active one committing to LLVM: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-Espindola https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Raf...
alexandernst 8y ago
The moment you say something that resembles even slightly to politically incorrect, you’re suddenly off of everything...
peterashford 8y ago
Seriously? LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave? I cannot fathom how trying to be inclusive should matter to anyone - it does not diminish you in any way to offer a hand up to others. I work in games. I have never been to GDC or PAX while I have seen many women get funding to go there on the basis of being a female in games. That isn't an attack on me personally - it's an attempt to work against historical inertia. And it's great. My industry needs to change and we are better for having a broader range of voices heard. If this guy thinks that helping others is such a burden, then really, I struggle to muster any sympathy for him.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- minitel 8y ago
  > LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave What a terrible misrepresentation of his position. Outreachy is a racist and sexist organization that excludes people based on their gender and ancestry. Anyone with a shred of self-awareness and moral fortitude should be proud to disassociate with them, and with anyone who chooses to associate with them.
- baud147258 8y ago
  > LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave What a terrible misrepresentation of his position. Outreachy is a racist and sexist organization that excludes people based on their gender and ancestry. Anyone with a shred of self-awareness and moral fortitude should be proud to disassociate with them, and with anyone who chooses to associate with them.
- ftarlao 8y ago
  Personally, I will surely quit from a firm adopting racist or discriminating policy, it's not about being forced to but it's about fighting dangerous behaviours. Furthermore the guy has not left cause the 'support to minorities trend' but has left cause the disguised 'racist and discriminating trend' of the LLVM project.

214 points by cvittal 8y ago

What I see here and elsewhere are people talking about engineering a just society who have no knowledge or experience in engineering just societies.

stillkicking 8y ago

"[flagged]" Yet another thread that demonstrates the social justice movement's harmful influence is flagged into invisibility. Time to cite Fredrik DeBoer I guess: >“Social justice” is an awkward term for an immensely important project, perhaps the most important project, which is to make the world a more equitable, fair, and compassionate place. >But the project for social justice has been captured by an elite strata of post-collegiate, digitally-enabled children of privilege, who do not pursue that project as an end, but rather use it as a means with which to compete, socially and professionally, with each other. >In that use, they value not speech or actions that actually result in a better world, but rather those that result in greater social reward, which in the digital world is obvious and explicit. That means that they prefer engagement that creates a) outrage and b) jokes, rather than engagement that leads to positive change. >In this disregard for actual political success, they reveal their own privilege, as it’s only the privileged who could ever have so little regard for actual, material progress. As long as they are allowed to co-opt the movement for social justice for their own personal aggrandizement, the world will not improve, not for women, people of color, gay and transgender people, or the poor. Remember when node.js forked into ayo.js? Well, maybe not, because you weren't allowed to see it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078995

djsumdog 8y ago
I saw this on Lobster and wanted to come here to see the comments and found this. This is really sad. It shouldn't be flagged at all. It's about tech culture, the e-mail is very well written and it brings up valid things we should talk about as a community. I've had my own posts flagged on Lobster as well, so they're not a bastion by any means. I know it's their platform and the mods can do what they want, but it still bothers me we're silencing conversation. Meanwhile on platforms like Gab/Voat, you just get insane amounts of bat-shit crazy. We're losing the moderate people in our society to extreme left/rightness of platforms.
- stillkicking 8y ago
  Yep. The extremeness of e.g. The_Donald on reddit is a direct result of how hostile r/politics was to anyone who didn't support Hillary. Sadly, I think the far left actually likes it this way. They want unreasonable boogiemen they can point to and demonize, so their own echo chambers can pretend to be the moderate ones.

YuukiRey 8y ago

"The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2)." I think this paragraph says more about the author of the post and his true intentions than the rest of the post.

kgabis 8y ago
Could you explain what you think his true intentions are? Because to me it does look both sexist and racist.

windoze10 8y ago

Yeah, I'm Asian, it's very funny to me to see a racist-to-the-core organization pretending to be the guardians of the diversity. They can go F themselves.

modbait 8y ago

This will happen more and more, though many will not be as open about their concerns, for fear of retaliation. I grew up in a time and place where many took great steps to profess that they were the "good" people and to ensure that everyone knew that they appropriately despised the "bad" people (albeit with love). I will not be a part of a return to that.

ggm 8y ago
... posted from a name called modbait "I see what you did there" ...

rhapsodic 8y ago

The community change I cannot take is how the social injustice movement has permeated it. When I joined llvm no one asked or cared about my religion or political view. We all seemed committed to just writing a good compiler framework. This makes me sad.

chickenfries 8y ago
This comment made me think that someone had disparaged them for their political beliefs or religion, but after reading that doesn't seem to have happened, unless they left it out for some reason, but that would be odd. In fact, if I understand the letter correctly, the straw that broke OP's back was this: > https://www.outreachy.org/apply/eligibility/ https://www.outreachy.org/apply/eligibility/ To which I say... really? Ok, that's too bad that you don't want to be a contributor anymore because there is a diversity scholarship... somehow I don't see that as a long term problem for LLVM though.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- candiodari 8y ago
  Nope. People have publicly declared that out of fear of the social justice movement they will ban people, refuse to communicate as soon as disagreement with the prevailing political view manifests. That's what's in the CoC that's objectionable. > made me think that someone had disparaged them for their political beliefs Funny how you do that in a post that disparages him for his political beliefs. But your post is nothing compared with the attacks elsewhere in this thread. Scroll down and read a bit, and you'll see plenty of that happening. Before you say "but it's not about excluding people", let me remind you about James Damore and Brendan Eich. Those were valuable people, attacked and damaged because of their (in Damore's case PERCEIVED, not real) political beliefs. We all know that the majority of Hacker News supported those actions (although how many supported them because they were afraid to be attacked, and how many actually supported those actions is not clear). And why do people do this ? Attack others for political reasons ? Most, of course, because they're afraid of SJWs. Because of what happened to Damore and Eich and many others. But SJWs, ostensibly, do this for tolerance of course ! THAT's why they're EXCLUDING people for their political views. For tolerance. Alaternative view: the SJWs are just socialites looking to exclude others, that's all. Aggressive and ... not interested in the only thing that matters : technically interesting work. I commend this person for speaking up.

21 8y ago

So that org doesn't want US white males, asians and indians (from India). Fine, if you are leftist this is expected of you today. More interestingly, being a gay man doesn't qualify you (but being a trans-gender man does). So gay man are not considered worthy of special attention.

pasabagi 8y ago

Ridiculous. This is the kind of weak thinker who would have looked at Jim Crow's South and said it was egalitarian. Formal discrimination is not the same as concrete discrimination.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
You call it ridiculous, I see it as the beginning of a movement to make open source project contributions invite only. The drive for “inclusion” is turning cancerous. “Social justice bikeshedding”. I’m pro social tolerance, but it’s coming off the rails in the tech world, with active discrimination explained away as progress.
- mfer 8y ago
  > welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and identities. Different people have different interpretations of support. Does it mean you support people even when you disagree with them or do you support their beliefs? I've been doing tech conferences for a long time. I initially learned how to do tech conferences without things outside the tech being part of the conference. This kept the focus on the tech and including people into that
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- pasabagi 8y ago
  I don't see how that's connected. Honestly. I just see a guy throwing his toys out the pram because somebody is being explicitly discriminatory. It's ridiculous because real, damaging discrimination is rarely explicit, almost never public, and almost always far more significant than being excluded from a mentorship program.
  - guitarbill 8y ago
    Wait, so this guy is standing up against what he sees as discrimination, and the argument is “ignore him, it’s not the bad kind of discrimination”?

GiorgioG 8y ago

These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from smart people. Why can't it be as simple as that?

morvita 8y ago
I, too, dream of a world where I can work with smart people without regard to their race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it is naive to think that we are already living in that world. Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black people working in the office. One of them is the receptionist. If we assume that there are no racial differences in technical ability, then the demographics of my office should roughly mirror the demographics of the surrounding community. Oakland is 28% black (according to the 2010 census), meaning in a fair, unbiased system we should have roughly 30-35 black people working in the office. I am sure that no hiring manager has set out to exclude black people from their postings, but there are centuries of history and deeply ingrained biases that have led to a severe under-representation of African-Americans in this industry, same with every other minority. Until we are truly operating on a level playing field, I am 100% in favour of scholarships based on giving under-represented minorities more opportunities. It is not discrimination to exclude white men from these scholarships. It is recognizing the centuries of privilege we have had and saying that we want give other people the opportunities we have be given simply by existing.
- jochung 8y ago
  "Centuries of privilege" is the kind of idiocy only a sheltered American suburbanite could come up with. A century ago millions of young white men were too busy dying in trenches and being gassed to death with mustard gas in a war none of them could vote on. Children worked on the field, in factories, and in coal mines, like their fathers were expected to. And yes, women stayed home and took care of the kids because without electricity, plumbing, appliances, refrigeration and cheap groceries, that was actually a laborious full time job, and people were poor. Not to mention that getting through child birth and infant mortality was a blessing for both mother and child. None of them were given opportunities simply by existing. On the other hand, providing scholarships to specific ethnicities, or creating special women-only pathways to entry, that is exactly that. What people like Damore have tried to point out is that expecting demographics and sentiment within a field to match the general population, or else the "playing field" is not level, is an unwarranted assumption. It also puts the blame for actually society wide issues on a small group of people who had nothing to do with it. If you want more black people in tech, start by addressing the way the US school system is stratified entirely by social class. Maybe you'll see a difference, and maybe that IQ gap will shrink. Maybe it won't, and what new "leveling" policies will you want to introduce then? Don't push out or disadvantage others out of misplaced revenge, and don't cite your American tunnel vision as justification.

gnachman 8y ago

Christ, what an asshole

shifter 8y ago

Gotta love how clattner shuts down the thread. He's a nice guy but he does have a strong authoritarian side that gets triggered by the typical SJW causes (even in small talk about silly things).

shifter 8y ago
To the downvoters: I'm a liberal speaking from years of working with him in meat space. You may not like what I said but it's accurate.
- pulisse 8y ago
  Lattner's message, in its entirety, was: This list is for technical compiler and tools discussions, lets not turn a thread about Rafael’s personal decision into a rant about CoC’s which we have been through before. If you’d like to have a productive discussion about CoC topics, then please start a new thread and use a respectful and productive tone. If you're being downvoted for a tendentious characterization of the thread, it looks justified.
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    > ...a rant about CoC’s which we have been through before. I mean, seems like Dr. Lattner (with all due respect) wants to suppress discussion of the CoC, despite the fact that discussion of the CoC is warranted and apparently crucial to retaining talent. The CoC has a direct effect on this very mailing list, so it seems like it would be up for discussion there, if anywhere.
    - pulisse 8y ago
      He explicitly--quoted right there in the comment you're responding to--invited a thread dedicated to discussion of the CoC. How from that do you infer that he's trying to suppress discussion of the topic?
jlebar 8y ago
Is this the email in question? http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122934.html http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122934.htm... Are you saying this is authoritarian and indicative of his being triggered, or are you saying that this sort of fits in with a mental model of him you've developed based on other experiences?

jakobegger 8y ago

Here’s something I don’t understand. If all you want is to contribute code, why not do that? How does it harm you if someone tries to increase diversity? LLVM is a big project; there’s surely enough space for different people. Some people will focus on the technical bits; others will focus on legal issues, and others can focus on social issues. What’s the problem with that? Why do so many people become defensive when a project adopts a code of conduct? If you really only care about building a great project with smart people, why do you care about the code of conduct? Just carry on with your work! If the code of conduct actually gets in the way of working, please speak up, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

stillkicking 8y ago
Because a code of conduct is just a foot in the door. It provides a pretense for people to seize power and start policing others in the community. That would be only one objection, but as always happens, the rules are not actually what is written, as the OP rightly pointed out. Another recent example was the Rod Vagg drama in node.js... he became the target of ire for tweeting an article about Neurodiversity and Free Speech. Does that sound like something that should go against any code of conduct that aims to be more welcoming and create diversity? Of course not, unless you subscribe to Social Justice, where everything is a dogwhistle and an opportunity to name and shame others. The person who was leading this charge was then discovered to have a tirade filled twitter stream full of spiteful and hateful language aimed at white people and men. Which apparently did not violate any CoC. The hypocrisy is obvious to anyone who digs past the surface, and the fact that well-meaning bystanders are effortlessly recruited into defending this petty and destructive behavior is what makes it so pernicious.
- mylons 8y ago
  the person you're referencing to with the RAMPANT misandry on their twitter feed is just intolerable and tiring.
  - sanxiyn 8y ago
    If so, rvagg should be criticized for those tweets, not for a reasonable article on neurodiversity.

amyjess 8y ago

He gives this as his reason for leaving: > Since agreement [to the code of conduct] is required to take part in the conferences, I am no longer able to attend. For reference, this is LLVM's code of conduct: https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide by it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or being forced to interact them for e.g. code review purposes. His departure is regrettable, but it is for the best that he's chosen to remove himself from the project if he can't bring himself to abide by it. > Be friendly and patient. > Be welcoming. We strive to be a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and identities. This includes, but is not limited to members of any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, colour, immigration status, social and economic class, educational level, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size, family status, political belief, religion or lack thereof, and mental and physical ability. > Be considerate. Your work will be used by other people, and you in turn will depend on the work of others. Any decision you take will affect users and colleagues, and you should take those consequences into account. Remember that we’re a world-wide community, so you might not be communicating in someone else’s primary language. > Be respectful. Not all of us will agree all the time, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behavior and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It’s important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. Members of the LLVM community should be respectful when dealing with other members as well as with people outside the LLVM community. > Be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others. Do not insult or put down other participants. Harassment and other exclusionary behavior aren’t acceptable. This includes, but is not limited to: > Violent threats or language directed against another person. > Discriminatory jokes and language. > Posting sexually explicit or violent material. > Posting (or threatening to post) other people’s personally identifying information (“doxing”). > Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms. > Unwelcome sexual attention. > Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior. > In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop. Persisting in such behavior after being asked to stop is considered harassment. > When we disagree, try to understand why. Disagreements, both social and technical, happen all the time and LLVM is no exception. It is important that we resolve disagreements and differing views constructively. Remember that we’re different. The strength of LLVM comes from its varied community, people from a wide range of backgrounds. Different people have different perspectives on issues. Being unable to understand why someone holds a viewpoint doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere. Instead, focus on helping to resolve issues and learning from mistakes.

michaellarabel 8y ago

For those curious about his contributor statistics, he was actually the fifth most active one committing to LLVM: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-Espindola https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Raf...

alexandernst 8y ago

The moment you say something that resembles even slightly to politically incorrect, you’re suddenly off of everything...

peterashford 8y ago

Seriously? LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave? I cannot fathom how trying to be inclusive should matter to anyone - it does not diminish you in any way to offer a hand up to others. I work in games. I have never been to GDC or PAX while I have seen many women get funding to go there on the basis of being a female in games. That isn't an attack on me personally - it's an attempt to work against historical inertia. And it's great. My industry needs to change and we are better for having a broader range of voices heard. If this guy thinks that helping others is such a burden, then really, I struggle to muster any sympathy for him.

deleted 8y ago
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minitel 8y ago
> LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave What a terrible misrepresentation of his position. Outreachy is a racist and sexist organization that excludes people based on their gender and ancestry. Anyone with a shred of self-awareness and moral fortitude should be proud to disassociate with them, and with anyone who chooses to associate with them.
baud147258 8y ago
> LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave What a terrible misrepresentation of his position. Outreachy is a racist and sexist organization that excludes people based on their gender and ancestry. Anyone with a shred of self-awareness and moral fortitude should be proud to disassociate with them, and with anyone who chooses to associate with them.
ftarlao 8y ago
Personally, I will surely quit from a firm adopting racist or discriminating policy, it's not about being forced to but it's about fighting dangerous behaviours. Furthermore the guy has not left cause the 'support to minorities trend' but has left cause the disguised 'racist and discriminating trend' of the LLVM project.