7 ms·

This is starting to sound like the “Rim States” from the science fiction novel Black Man (Thirteen) by Richard K. Morgan. Basically the blue and red states sepa

by artpop 9y ago

This is starting to sound like the “Rim States” from the science fiction novel Black Man (Thirteen) by Richard K. Morgan. Basically the blue and red states separate in the future because they couldn’t resolve their differences. The blue states go on to prosper and the red states languish. It struck me how plausible it sounded when I read it. Now with the commander in shit-the-bed Donald Trump and the rising tide self-destructive behaviour, it’s looking like a good option to me.

Edmond 9y ago
could work out that way...I can see a similar alliance on things like healthcare, education..etc...of course civil rights could be a complicating factor.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
aanm1988 9y ago
I doubt it gets that far, but it really does seem like something needs to change. The country doesn't necessarily need to shift as far left as california, but right not a set of old laws working with the modern shift towards cities is really reducing the power of a vote in CA/NY. That's a pretty big problem.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
oh_sigh 9y ago
Your comment was reasonable until you called him "commander in shit-the-bed". I'd suggest holding back on that kind of rhetoric if you want people to consider your opinion.
- epistasis 9y ago
  It's unfortunate that you're downvoted. Civility is of the utmost importance, especially when the command in chief has so little of it, publicly. It's a way to build bridges, and when we're talking about states separating, that's especially important.
  - peteretep 9y ago
    > Civility is of the utmost importance Bullshit.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    Civility is very important, but it is not of the utmost importance. I'm being pedantic, but not in the linguistic sense; when you're faced with existential threats or severe attacks upon one's moral principles, then it's appropriate and sometimes even necessary to express anger. Suppose, for examples, that the allegations swirling around DC these days are well-founded and the administration has been lured or willingly entered into being co-opted by a hostile foreign foreign power. For all the jokes over glowing orbs and handshakes, there's a strong argument that the post WW2 international political consensus is under deliberate attack designed to create strategic instability. If you're a student of history, this is deeply worrying, and there's a small but realistic chance of the US sliding into autocracy and a similar chance of a third world war breaking out in the coming years. Not every conflict can be solved by polite engagement and mutual understanding. If you are dealing with a bad actor who does not subscribe to your moral calculus, then putting civility above all else can mean putting yourself at a significant strategic disadvantage. surely you are aware of the increase in racially and politically motivated violence across the country. I can readily direct you to prominent political figures with significant public followings who are openly advocating ethnic genocide within the US; nazis, to put it bluntly. IT is facile and dangerous to sugarcoat things for the sake of preserving a superficial tranquility. I'm not defending the crude comment above, but asking you to take a little time out to evaluate your political norms and mores while you have the space in which to do so, lest you find yourself taken by surprise by future events.
- noonespecial 9y ago
  Don't think you should be dv'd either. We need to remember to respect the office even when we don't respect the person. Eventually "our person" will once again hold the office of POTUS and we'll need it to be a respectable position of power.
  - srdev 9y ago
    That sentiment hasn't been the norm for at least 8 years. Obama was highly disrespected.
Karrot_Kream 9y ago
While I'm happy that the states are picking up the slack, are you really insinuating that the Red states are leading to their own self-destruction, going on to "languish"? I'm saddened that people have this viewpoint over such a large swath of the country.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- zaksoup 9y ago
  Red states have lower GDP, higher poverty, lower education, and are largely subsidized by blue states through federal grants. I am not implying causation and there are other interesting facts (lower cost of living relative to wages in red states) but as it stands now if blue and red split it doesn't seem like it's all that controversial to imply red would suffer. A little bit of googling turns up many interesting articles and interpretations of this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/01/04/solved-why-poor-states-are-red-and-rich-states-are-blue/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstal...
  - trendia 9y ago
    Of course, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the article, but it's always funny when someone posts an article they didn't read. It directly contradicts what you're claiming: > The red states aren't in fact poorer than the blue states. They're richer: that's why they vote more conservative and more right wing. The article argues that people who make less move to areas with lower costs of living, because they have more purchasing power in those areas: > Because those lower income places have even lower prices, making consumption standards higher. That is, red states aren't poor because of red policies, they're poor because they're cheaper to live in. Further, the article claims that blue policies hurt the poor! > What we now need to go on and explain is why those nominally left policies, those blue ones, are so to the disadvantage of the poor they're supposedly helping....
    - zaksoup 9y ago
jensenbox 9y ago
I know it sounds nuts, but why not merge into Canada? Just get Oregon on board and you are golden.
- larsiusprime 9y ago
  It's unconstitutional and would trigger a second civil war? The federal position on the secession question has been pretty affirmatively settled: "no."
  - zachberger 9y ago
    Wouldn't a constitutional amendment resolve this?
    - larsiusprime 9y ago
      Sure, but if the point of separation is to resolve a crisis where two sides can't agree I don't see how you'd get them to pass the one piece of legislation that requires the ultra-highest bar of consensus, across both the state and federal levels of government.
  - jbattle 9y ago
    There is a distressingly large portion of the country that would love to see California leave the us. (Or Kansas or Texas or New York).
  - jbattle 9y ago
    There is a distressingly large portion of the country that would love to see California leave the us. (Or Kansas or Texas or New York).
  - aanm1988 9y ago
    A group leaving the country doesn't give 2 shits about the constitution. It comes down to how much you are willing to fight for it, and both sides would end up with nukes.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
saosebastiao 9y ago
I'm not sure why it hasn't happened before. We've built this patriotism about our specific borders as if that's the thing that holds us together...when in reality our borders are the result of a crazy delusional idea called Manifest Destiny from the 1800s. Californians have about as much in common with Alabamians as they do with Australians. From a purely pragmatic perspective we should probably break up the US anyway. Our political divisions have gridlocked progress basically to the point of no return. We're basically legislating and repealing the same damn things every couple of years.
- laretluval 9y ago
  > I'm not sure why it hasn't happened before. It has been tried before, but the results weren't great.
- Dobbs 9y ago
  The difference between Californians and Alabamians is more in line with the difference between Urban vs Rural. You will find similar differences within the UK, Australia, Germany and basically every other advanced country.
- thesmallestcat 9y ago
  > Californians have about as much in common with Alabamians as they do with Australians. Californians in Redding have about as much in common with Californians in San Francisco as Californians in Crescent City have in common with Californians in San Diego as... oh wait. I suggest you spend a little more time traveling around CA before you form such an absurd opinion about these mythical "Californians."
  - saosebastiao 9y ago
    I grew up in Stockton, I know precisely how diverse California is.
    - thesmallestcat 9y ago
      Now I'm just plain confused -- how could somebody who grew up in the Central Valley and regularly saw trucks with confederate flags feel that Californians are some bloc that are so dissimilar from Alabamans? I'd argue that San Franciscans are way, way closer to Sydneysiders than Alabamans, but that's besides the point and misunderstands what sets the US apart from other commonwealth nations culturally. While in some ways there are huge differences, there is a common vein.
mudil 9y ago
S&P, Moody's Downgrade Illinois to Near Junk, Lowest Ever for U.S. State https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/illinois-bonds-cut-to-one-step-above-junk-by-s-p-over-stalemate https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/illinois-...
- spamizbad 9y ago
  At the state-level, Illinois has the fewest government employees per 1000 citizens. Source: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-ap-data-states-shed-thousands-of-public-employees-2011dec18-story.html http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-ap-data-states-shed... Our medicaid costs are below the national average. Per-capita education costs are also some of the lowest (at the state level - IL depends heavily on local property taxes) Our Republican governor has been unable to cut any state-level waste for that very reason: The entire state government is already runs lean. We're in a budget mess because of pension obligations, not because we're a bunch of hippie spendthrifts.
  - xienze 9y ago
    > We're in a budget mess because of pension obligations Let me guess, that's also the fault of the Republicans.
kafkaesq 9y ago
The blue states go on to prosper and the red states languish. The inverse of Atlas Shrugged, as it were.

by artpop 9y ago

Edmond 9y ago

could work out that way...I can see a similar alliance on things like healthcare, education..etc...of course civil rights could be a complicating factor.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

aanm1988 9y ago

I doubt it gets that far, but it really does seem like something needs to change. The country doesn't necessarily need to shift as far left as california, but right not a set of old laws working with the modern shift towards cities is really reducing the power of a vote in CA/NY. That's a pretty big problem.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

oh_sigh 9y ago

Your comment was reasonable until you called him "commander in shit-the-bed". I'd suggest holding back on that kind of rhetoric if you want people to consider your opinion.

epistasis 9y ago
It's unfortunate that you're downvoted. Civility is of the utmost importance, especially when the command in chief has so little of it, publicly. It's a way to build bridges, and when we're talking about states separating, that's especially important.
- peteretep 9y ago
  > Civility is of the utmost importance Bullshit.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Civility is very important, but it is not of the utmost importance. I'm being pedantic, but not in the linguistic sense; when you're faced with existential threats or severe attacks upon one's moral principles, then it's appropriate and sometimes even necessary to express anger. Suppose, for examples, that the allegations swirling around DC these days are well-founded and the administration has been lured or willingly entered into being co-opted by a hostile foreign foreign power. For all the jokes over glowing orbs and handshakes, there's a strong argument that the post WW2 international political consensus is under deliberate attack designed to create strategic instability. If you're a student of history, this is deeply worrying, and there's a small but realistic chance of the US sliding into autocracy and a similar chance of a third world war breaking out in the coming years. Not every conflict can be solved by polite engagement and mutual understanding. If you are dealing with a bad actor who does not subscribe to your moral calculus, then putting civility above all else can mean putting yourself at a significant strategic disadvantage. surely you are aware of the increase in racially and politically motivated violence across the country. I can readily direct you to prominent political figures with significant public followings who are openly advocating ethnic genocide within the US; nazis, to put it bluntly. IT is facile and dangerous to sugarcoat things for the sake of preserving a superficial tranquility. I'm not defending the crude comment above, but asking you to take a little time out to evaluate your political norms and mores while you have the space in which to do so, lest you find yourself taken by surprise by future events.
noonespecial 9y ago
Don't think you should be dv'd either. We need to remember to respect the office even when we don't respect the person. Eventually "our person" will once again hold the office of POTUS and we'll need it to be a respectable position of power.
- srdev 9y ago
  That sentiment hasn't been the norm for at least 8 years. Obama was highly disrespected.

Karrot_Kream 9y ago

While I'm happy that the states are picking up the slack, are you really insinuating that the Red states are leading to their own self-destruction, going on to "languish"? I'm saddened that people have this viewpoint over such a large swath of the country.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
zaksoup 9y ago
Red states have lower GDP, higher poverty, lower education, and are largely subsidized by blue states through federal grants. I am not implying causation and there are other interesting facts (lower cost of living relative to wages in red states) but as it stands now if blue and red split it doesn't seem like it's all that controversial to imply red would suffer. A little bit of googling turns up many interesting articles and interpretations of this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/01/04/solved-why-poor-states-are-red-and-rich-states-are-blue/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstal...
- trendia 9y ago
  Of course, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the article, but it's always funny when someone posts an article they didn't read. It directly contradicts what you're claiming: > The red states aren't in fact poorer than the blue states. They're richer: that's why they vote more conservative and more right wing. The article argues that people who make less move to areas with lower costs of living, because they have more purchasing power in those areas: > Because those lower income places have even lower prices, making consumption standards higher. That is, red states aren't poor because of red policies, they're poor because they're cheaper to live in. Further, the article claims that blue policies hurt the poor! > What we now need to go on and explain is why those nominally left policies, those blue ones, are so to the disadvantage of the poor they're supposedly helping....
  - zaksoup 9y ago

jensenbox 9y ago

I know it sounds nuts, but why not merge into Canada? Just get Oregon on board and you are golden.

larsiusprime 9y ago
It's unconstitutional and would trigger a second civil war? The federal position on the secession question has been pretty affirmatively settled: "no."
- zachberger 9y ago
  Wouldn't a constitutional amendment resolve this?
  - larsiusprime 9y ago
    Sure, but if the point of separation is to resolve a crisis where two sides can't agree I don't see how you'd get them to pass the one piece of legislation that requires the ultra-highest bar of consensus, across both the state and federal levels of government.
- jbattle 9y ago
  There is a distressingly large portion of the country that would love to see California leave the us. (Or Kansas or Texas or New York).
- jbattle 9y ago
  There is a distressingly large portion of the country that would love to see California leave the us. (Or Kansas or Texas or New York).
- aanm1988 9y ago
  A group leaving the country doesn't give 2 shits about the constitution. It comes down to how much you are willing to fight for it, and both sides would end up with nukes.
- anigbrowl 9y ago

saosebastiao 9y ago

I'm not sure why it hasn't happened before. We've built this patriotism about our specific borders as if that's the thing that holds us together...when in reality our borders are the result of a crazy delusional idea called Manifest Destiny from the 1800s. Californians have about as much in common with Alabamians as they do with Australians. From a purely pragmatic perspective we should probably break up the US anyway. Our political divisions have gridlocked progress basically to the point of no return. We're basically legislating and repealing the same damn things every couple of years.

laretluval 9y ago
> I'm not sure why it hasn't happened before. It has been tried before, but the results weren't great.
Dobbs 9y ago
The difference between Californians and Alabamians is more in line with the difference between Urban vs Rural. You will find similar differences within the UK, Australia, Germany and basically every other advanced country.
thesmallestcat 9y ago
> Californians have about as much in common with Alabamians as they do with Australians. Californians in Redding have about as much in common with Californians in San Francisco as Californians in Crescent City have in common with Californians in San Diego as... oh wait. I suggest you spend a little more time traveling around CA before you form such an absurd opinion about these mythical "Californians."
- saosebastiao 9y ago
  I grew up in Stockton, I know precisely how diverse California is.
  - thesmallestcat 9y ago
    Now I'm just plain confused -- how could somebody who grew up in the Central Valley and regularly saw trucks with confederate flags feel that Californians are some bloc that are so dissimilar from Alabamans? I'd argue that San Franciscans are way, way closer to Sydneysiders than Alabamans, but that's besides the point and misunderstands what sets the US apart from other commonwealth nations culturally. While in some ways there are huge differences, there is a common vein.

mudil 9y ago

S&P, Moody's Downgrade Illinois to Near Junk, Lowest Ever for U.S. State https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/illinois-bonds-cut-to-one-step-above-junk-by-s-p-over-stalemate https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/illinois-...

spamizbad 9y ago
At the state-level, Illinois has the fewest government employees per 1000 citizens. Source: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-ap-data-states-shed-thousands-of-public-employees-2011dec18-story.html http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-ap-data-states-shed... Our medicaid costs are below the national average. Per-capita education costs are also some of the lowest (at the state level - IL depends heavily on local property taxes) Our Republican governor has been unable to cut any state-level waste for that very reason: The entire state government is already runs lean. We're in a budget mess because of pension obligations, not because we're a bunch of hippie spendthrifts.
- xienze 9y ago
  > We're in a budget mess because of pension obligations Let me guess, that's also the fault of the Republicans.

kafkaesq 9y ago

The blue states go on to prosper and the red states languish. The inverse of Atlas Shrugged, as it were.