11 ms·

Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

132 points by hackuser 9y ago

swaroop 9y ago
Aadhaar is one of those programs which is a solution looking for a problem, at huge cost of privacy, security and government surveillance. See https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/
- drieddust 9y ago
  Agreed but even most of the very literate ones does not understand the implication. Everyone is so gung-ho about having a single identity tied back to bio-metric data that highlighting the privacy concerns and historical misuse have no effect.
  - intended 9y ago
    And its not even historical misuse. Aadhar has been abused in the present, the government has lied about its purpose over its entire existence and has directly abused SC instructions. The AG for the govt has gone on and said that Indian's don't have a right to privacy in court, and their numbers don't hold up to scrutiny. This has all happened in the present, none of what I have said is even exaggeration, it's actually happened. The iSpirit guy was caught, publicly, creating a troll army to abuse Pro Privacy supporters. Its insane. Do not expect the people fighting for aadhar to ever stop supporting it. Aadhar is their hero, it ushers in a new age for India - any one who fights against this new age is misguided at best, or an enemy of progress at worst. Its absurd.
bpodgursky 9y ago
Seriously Mozilla? The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector. It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas. It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems, and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral litmus tests.
- gkcgautam 9y ago
  Aadhar isn't really solving these problems, but in fact is compromising on the privacy of the citizens of India. See https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/
  - aub3bhat 9y ago
    All those myths are strawman arguments.
    - flak48 9y ago
      Why is Aadhar being made compulsory for rail/air travel or for getting cellular connections? What problem is biometrics in these areas going to solve?
      - petertodd 9y ago
        Privacy... I think the problem here is ultimately that people aren't doing proper threat modeling, and failing to include the government itself as a potential threat. The most terrifying consulting contract I've ever been offered was a project to entirely replace cash in a country with a "blockchain" currency scheme. In addition to the requirements that both buyer and seller be 100% identified (likely by biometrics), there was also a requirement that every receipt be uploaded to a government run server, allowing exactly what was being bought to be tracked in detail in real-time. And of course, there was the requirement that it be possible to freeze accounts on demand. I asked the client what country the project was ultimately going to be for, and they didn't really want to tell me (citing NDA's and what not). But I did get them to finally admit it wasn't a democracy, it was a dictatorship. Pretty obvious that dictatorship wanted even more control over their citizens. Needless to say, I turned the contract down as being involved would be incredibly unethical. But how much more ethical is it really to do the same type of project in a country that's supposed to be a democracy? I'm not so sure there's a clear difference, given how quickly privacy protections can be removed. Look at how census data was used to round up the Japanese in the USA during WWII for instance.
- 9y ago
davesque 9y ago
Does anyone know what sort of data they collect on people to identify them? One reason I ask is that I wonder how such a system could be used to provide a "scientific" answer as to what caste a person belongs. That would obviously be a little worrisome if it were possible.
- intended 9y ago
  You have surname data, and also given address. On top of it this data is often found floating around in many unguarded excel files all over the web. Its trivially easy to break people into caste buckets.
aub3bhat 9y ago
This is ridiculous fearmongering at a scale unseen before, given the enormous amount of corruption in Indian public distribution schemes, Aadhar has potential to be revolutionary in not only reducing corruption but also in providing poor people in India with assistance that they currently lack. Its easy to be a rich and employed in SF and pontificate about how other countries should run their government. Mozilla is equivalent of those who criticized "Green revolution" because if fed starving people without causing "social revolution" etc. Aadhar has potential to cause "Digital revolution" and decades from now Mozilla will be on the wrong side of history. Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.
- adityab 9y ago
  > Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors. This is BS because getting a visa is a conscious choice, Aadhar is forced upon India's residents. You're attacking people for having an opinion that's contrary to yours. About your other points - no one is denying the benefits of having a strong unique ID system that lets people interface with government services; the problem is that Aadhar has no safeguards for privacy - which you would've focused on had you bothered to read the article.
  - aub3bhat 9y ago
    You are the one full of bullshit because if you are okay with surrendering your biometrics to a foreign government (especially the country where Mozilla is based out of) you don't have any right to complain about your own country seeking similar access. The article is written by people with political agenda, Aadhar is million times better than SSN or other such systems. I am extremely well versed with Security & Privacy related to authentication & identification, and most comments/articles offer no concrete solutions. Biometrics are essential to establishing unique identity.
    - adityab 9y ago
      I don't know what kind of world you live in, where you cannot believe that people can take a principled stand about a policy. Why can I not worry about my family's data being shared free-for-all by random startups that use their "Open API"? Not everything is about X team vs Y team.
mankash666 9y ago
Replace aadhar with SSN and this would still (mostly) hold true. The only difference is biometric backin in aadhar. Silly PR
- mystere 9y ago
  I don't really have a pony in this race, but logically, there is a difference. There are strict government laws in place to protect SSN information, such laws do not exist (apparently) in India regarding Aadhar. I don't think the argument is (mostly) about having a national ID, but about the lack of privacy of that information. Of course biometrics are bad in another way... If one needed to, you could change an ID number, you can't change your fingerprints
  - ams6110 9y ago
    Social Security Number in the US pre-dates the internet and any concerns people had about privacy. People used to include it on their pre-printed personal checks along with their name and address. SSNs don't even have a checksum to detect typos, nor any convenient mechanism to issue a replacement number if one is compromised. Using the security flaws of the SSN implementation to justify security flaws in any modern identity system is just not rational. If anything it shows that people didn't learn from history.
    - hackuser 9y ago
      Generally I agree, but ... > Social Security Number in the US pre-dates the internet and any concerns people had about privacy. People in the US were concerned about privacy long before the Internet. The 4th Amendment to the US Constitution dates back to the 18th century, for example. In fact, I'd say people are much less concerned about privacy in the Internet era; they put everything online and happily give private info to corporations and government.
      - prodmerc 9y ago
        The fact is that having an SSN and the person's name can be enough to literally take his identity and do whatever you want. Or literally get a birth certificate and become a "US citizen". It's a bit more complicated, but not impossible, to do that in the UK, Belgium and Germany as well. Probably other countries, too. So you're all crying about India being dystopian while your own ID systems are completely fucked.
timwaagh 9y ago
i get it. big brother is watching us. now im going to eat my pizza. big brother can watch if he likes.
- shiven 9y ago
  you eat pizza, li'l brother. just don't play with my toys, or do anything you like but i don't. sooner or later, i may decide to come by and kick you butt for fun, just don't run. remember, i'm always watching.
mundanevoice 9y ago
All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place. Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things. Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks. Social Security Number in the US is pretty similar. No one gets security right the first time and nothing is secure forever. Mozilla being such a nice organisation with so many good initiatives. Why don't it come forward and dedicate some of its resources in helping out the Indian Government? Wouldn't that be better than just criticising without knowing any ground reality of how things operate in India?
- adityab 9y ago
  I would have been fine with Aadhar if - They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication - There would not be an API for commercial services I just want the government to be able to provide its services smoothly. I don't want random startups leaking or selling everyone's data.
  - realonedev 9y ago
    Where exactly is data leaked ? All the news you hear about Aadhar privacy are fake .
  - aub3bhat 9y ago
    >> They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication Aadhar provides multiple levels of security, Number > Fingerprint > Iris >= OTP / Two-Factor. Finally fingerprints are not as easy to fake, even if they are faked depending on deployment a system can randomly ask for higher level of authentication such as iris or OTP. By having these multiple authentication methods its easier to tune the system for fraud detection vs ease-of-use. I can understand why the government is not publicizing all the anti-fraud measures since its always a game of cat & mouse. >> There would not be an API for commercial services This makes no sense, in USA the SSN is typically shared with thousands of services, landlords, apps. In fact the API has potential to open up secure commerce and break the MasterCard/Visa duopoly.
2pointsomone 9y ago
The entire article's argument of breach of privacy hinges on the claim that "the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish". Is there any substantial evidence of this of broad statement? On the whole, pretty disappointed in this article from Mozilla.
- devnonymous 9y ago
  > Is there any substantial evidence of this of broad statement? Even if this hasn't happened yet, Are there any measures in place to keep this from happening?... Ever... Irrespective of the party in power? The current government does not even want to acknowledge the possibility let alone describe the checks and measures put in place to avoid it from happening.
realonedev 9y ago
I belong to the third world of the third world. State called Uttar Pradesh. If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India. Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar : My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents. Which means, No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe. Since the government has advertised the Direct Benefit far too much,on TV, on radio, the middleman (distributer) can't cheat anymore. This government markets everything and hence the poor and underprivileged has started questioning those the officials who don't do their jobs or provide the things exactly as advertised. The middleman I am talking about are not government employees directly, but taking a distribution agency does involve bribe payment. Those middleman paid bribe before 2014 government to get the agency, hoping that they will get the roi(i is bribe) within a few years. 2014 government single handedly has destroyed the corrupt ( who paid bribe) middleman in gas distribution Most of the proganda against this government is supported people who felt entitled being part of a government job, (extra bribe ) because the Congress Government had created deep corruption webs for 60 years. Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014. Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. All propaganda against Aadhar has been intensified only after the Aadhar number started saving money and stared to directly benefit people. Coincidence? Also, when the government decided to link Aadhar to the income tax returns, again these privacy activists have become active ? Coincidence? Remember, the old lady in a village in in 3rd world does not know about privacy, she is happy because now her 15 son does not need to stand and bribe the gas distribution agency and can study for a day extra.
- ganduG 9y ago
  Yes, but the old lady in the village will have a problem with it when it is used to marginalize and discriminate against her. The riots in 1984 and in 2001 showed us how voter lists can, and will, be misused by people in power to their own benefit.
  - aub3bhat 9y ago
    You mean the Cincinnati riots of 2001 I can clearly see why USA should not have voter lists /s The riots happened in 2002 and NOT 2001 (at least get the year right), and unless you are arguing abolishing voter lists, or have a specific argument that involves Aadhar. I don't see how this is in anyway relevant to this discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
devnonymous 9y ago
Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself. > The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need > them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Citation ? (not about the corruption happening, that has been well established, but about aadhaar allegedly solving this problem). > Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification > necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector. There already are a pletora of identification methods in India, including the PAN, ration card, BPL Card, Voter ID etc. In the end the problems that keep it from being 'unique' are in the implementation at the grass roots. How is Aadhaar going to change this ? There already are a lot of reports of duplication of Aadhaar. > It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas. Reliable ? Oh really ? According to the goverment's own addmission : http://aadhaarcarduid.org/uidai-cancelled-3-8-lakh-fake-aadhaar-cards/ http://aadhaarcarduid.org/uidai-cancelled-3-8-lakh-fake-aadh... > It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping > programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple > hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because > their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this > conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems, > and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral > litmus tests. Firstly, the Indian goverment is not even interested in debating or engaing people who have a different viewpoint than them, including the Superme Court of India. So, tell me again, which is this India you speak about that is allegedly soloving its problems ? I feel like Indians like me are lesser Indians than thos that toe the Goverment line. I often think about this when it comes to Indians reacting to critizims about India: Except from the book "Restart"[1] > Then the denial, the one form of intellectual argument we have mastered. > India has no problem; if it has a problem, it is nobody else’s business; > everybody else also has this problem; everybody else has other problems, why > don’t you talk about those instead; why are you saying this is a problem, it is > a part of our 5000-year- old culture; we knew the answers to all problems in > the Vedic era; even if we have this problem, it is not our fault; even if we > have this problem, we cannot accept any of the solutions that have been shown > to work elsewhere; even if we have this problem, it is much better than it was; > perhaps we have this problem, but it is none of your business. ...and this book is not even about sociology or politics, it is about economics. http://www.amazon.in/Restart-Last-Chance-Indian-Economy/dp/8184005717/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495909382&sr=8-1&keywords=restart+mihir+sharma http://www.amazon.in/Restart-Last-Chance-Indian-Economy/dp/8...
aashiks 9y ago
The short sightedness and naivety of this comment is disgusting. The poor and the rich have had "real" identification that has worked well - the electoral ID for example. Forcing aadhar down everyone's throat with no practical complaint redressal is the issue here. (Good luck getting UIDAI to take responsibility) Aadhar is not progress. Forcing biometric identification that relies on brittle infra is not progress. It is a sign of short sighted faith in solving people problems with technology. India can solve its problems by its own when it recognizes that beyond money, there are people who are willing to support its technology movement. Competant tech people have time and again come out against the architecture of the solution - the last to suffer for it was Kiran Jonnalgadda (jackerhack on twitter). This was a solution designed to give absolute oversight of people, as an exclusionary mechanism. Clarifying more. 1. Aadhar verification failures are a lot more than its advocates proposes. I have seen logs of verification failure with rates upwards of 30%. (No, I am not willing to disclose where, except that it was available publicly on the website of an organisation associated with the government). Citizens will still go starving with that kind of failure rates. Remember that Aadhar Card is a piece of paper with your Aadhar number on it and no storage whatsoever. This is different from countries like Malaysia where they have a national ID card with biometrics stored on chip. If the verification fails and it does fail all the time, good luck to the poor people who wants UIDAI (not even under legal obligation to do it by the way) to redress the complaint. 2. Privacy. I like it how everyone conviniently ignores this : "Even worse, the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish. This would allow companies to have access to some of your most intimate details and create detailed profiles of you, in ways you can’t necessarily see or control. The government can also share user data “in the interest of national security,” a term that remains dangerously undefined. There are little to no protections on how Aadhaar data is used, and certainly no meaningful user consent. Individual privacy and security cannot be adequately protected and users cannot have trust in systems when they do not have transparency or a choice in how their private information will be used." I mean WTF man. Really ? That is what a Government is supposed to do ? Sell your citizen's data ? Because that is exactly what is happening here. Good job Mozilla. You prove you stand for people.
- realonedev 9y ago
abhishivsaxena 9y ago
OMG Mozilla. No wonder open internet is in such a bad shape when we have you leading it. 1) Aadhaar is not fundamentally different than a National ID which every other country in this world has. India not only lacked it, out birth registrations certificates weren't reliable at all. 2) Yes they do collection Biometrics(BM). But BM are never shared with any other agency/company. And it's strictly codified in law. BM are only used for deduplication(1b+ population), and authentication. 3) For KYC(Know your Customer) or E-Payments BM based authentication is much more secure than what's being used currently - signatures, and self attested xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop. 4) You can also ask Aadhaar server to dispatch an SMS to your mobile number every time an authentication happens. Now compare that your signature/xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop and you would have no idea about it. 5) In this changing world who would you want to control identity? A private company like Apple which can block you or some developer anytime and there would be no recourse? Or a govt agency - backed by a law of Parliament - that you can drag to court. 6) Want to build a marketplace for house-maids? Or for farmers? Don't want it bogged down by scamsters which in the end depressing adaption? Easy add Aadhaar based autnetication to your app. http://bridge.aadhaarconnect.com/ http://bridge.aadhaarconnect.com/ 7) For financial products like bank accounts, mutual funds etc Aadhaar brings down compliance cost. So for a MF while in the old system it wouldn't be viable to take an investment of less than 50k Rs because the compliance cost itself would be 1k Rs or something, now you can do it under 10 Rs. Are we making a better world or not, in which the poor have access to Mutual funds, Insurance etc or Mozilla thinks it's not? Please watch this https://youtu.be/LJCEyqcKN3Q?t=5m50s https://youtu.be/LJCEyqcKN3Q?t=5m50s and tell me which other country in this world can match this. Getting a loan in under 8 minutes. Or opening a bank account in under 10 min. This is a technological revolution - but not happening in Copenhagen or Zurich, but dusty villages of India. I have had enough of these Aadhaar critics - and now Mozilla - who have colonised their minds with some western ideas, and are unable to see what's happening in India. Bottom line, there's no better example of how technology can drastically change lives for the poor and the needy than Aadhaar. Those who are unable to see it, are usually just biased because need clicks for their publications, or need to build their reputation as security analyst or something by bashing something. Look into this thread itself, and you'll find them linking to each other's twitter profile etc. Sickening really.
- 9y ago
gumby 9y ago
One of the big problems of Aadhar to me is the mandatory use. I understand the terrible problems of stolen benefits, and how the card could help. But in a country as large, dispersed and disorganized as India, mandatory is a risk. Plenty of people will slip though the cracks and be unregistered. It works in a tiny country like Germany where it was built on top of other infrastructure (ID cards were introduced in the 1930s; other uses were introduced lated once they had become essentially ubiquitous). In addition, the lesson of China is salutary: siblings (whose very existence violated the one child policy) were often not registered, and thus missed out on schooling and other benefits. The "hukou" system controlled who was allowed to work or travel -- and surely everyone can imagine a government trying to fight urban slums by prohibiting migration from the countryside (by denying benefits)?
- abhishivsaxena 9y ago
  How come you don't know that 99% adults have Aaadhaar in India at last count? Or if you knew still decided to raise this point.
  - shiven 9y ago
    Where are you getting the 99% number? Any proof of that?
    - abhishivsaxena 9y ago
      93% in 2015 according to UIDAI - http://www.firstpost.com/india/about-93-percent-of-adults-in-india-have-aadhaar-card-says-uidai-2489084.html http://www.firstpost.com/india/about-93-percent-of-adults-in... 99% in 2017 according to the the minister - http://www.thehindu.com/business/Aadhaar-covers-99-of-adults-in-India-Prasad/article17104609.ece http://www.thehindu.com/business/Aadhaar-covers-99-of-adults... 1.11+ B people All this is easily googleable. I fail to understand why you and the OP wouldn't just check it before fear mongering.
      - realonedev 9y ago
thisisit 9y ago
The amount of people calling FUD is amazing. Let's first talk about the implementation: How many cards do we have in India specially for ID purposes? PAN for taxes, Raashan card for food grains and subsidies are the two names I can think of from the gamut of ids. Now a person needs Aadhar to literally do everything not including taxes and subsidies. Why is that? Isn't it enough that people kowtow to babus to get their other cards that we now need this? People praising direct benefits, was it not possible using raashan card? If your answer is well they could be fakes? Then wake up to the fact that there can be fake Aadhar cards too. Second, lets talk about privacy. Fine there is a new card. Why do they need iris scans and finger prints? What is the need? That too in a government infrastructure which is surely not protecting it properly - http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDAI-temporarily-halts-Aadhaar-payments-by-Axis-Bank-two-o.html http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDA... UIDAI said this: “It is an isolated case of an employee working with a bank’s Business Correspondent company making an attempt to misuse his own biometrics which was detected by UIDAI internal security system and subsequently actions under the Aadhaar Act have been initiated,” according to a statement by UIDAI. (http://www.livemint.com/Politics/poeRx6xesHcUn6WpOJuJjN/Aadhaar-data-base-fully-safe-and-secure-says-UIDAI.html http://www.livemint.com/Politics/poeRx6xesHcUn6WpOJuJjN/Aadh...) So it is a system which can be compromised by a motivated employee? What was the benefit again? Oh right stamping out corruption. Lets see how long that lasts. I have refused to get Aadhar card because I don't want to share my biometric data. Many say what is wrong if you have or never going to do something wrong. I refer to you: "Don’t confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secrecy." (https://medium.com/@FabioAEsteves/i-have-nothing-to-hide-why-should-i-care-about-my-privacy-f488281b8f1d https://medium.com/@FabioAEsteves/i-have-nothing-to-hide-why...) I never wanted one because I am not opting for subsidies by choice. I earn enough and pay my taxes on time. But this forced choice of filing returns only using Aadhar has left me no choice. And for the tinfoils out there. About some kind of conspiracy about the timing. Same could be said about Aadhar. What is the reason government is rejecting people's concern and supreme court directive of not making this mandatory? If some kind of foreign money is involved is the logic here, same could be said about Nandan Nilekani and his private company which started this all.
- 9y ago
0xelectron 9y ago
It sounds and looks really bad, but, India currently is so desperate to ridicule corruption that it's going to any lengths possible, which includes invading people's privacy. Now, I don't know if that's the right thing to do.
CommanderData 9y ago
These comments demonstrate how patriotism can affect ones rational and objective thinking. There are understandably benefits and convenience, however the articles focus is not that. It highlights the inherent threats to citizens individual freedoms that has somehow been missed by commentators.
- shiven 9y ago
  Nationalism, not patriotism. The latter is fine, the former is a bloody cancer.
- abhishivsaxena 9y ago
  Contrary is also true. How fear mongering and condescending attitude towards others can make you delusional to not see the facts in plain sight.
aashiks 9y ago
https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/ Posting these for everyone's benefit.
aashiks 9y ago
https://rethinkaadhaar.in/testimonials/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/testimonials/ ^ What happens when a centralised system with brittle architecture fails. For all the nationalistic spiel, the fact remains that even if I have a passport that proves my identity, service providers (public and private, equally) are forced to ask (or just blindly ask for) my Aadhar number (which I don't have) . Ironic isn't it.
eklavya 9y ago
I am in the wait and watch camp. So far aadhar has shown promise and benefits. I am also in the "make it compulsory for income tax" group. For privacy, they will get their act together I hope (plug leakages if any). If they don't, it would be foolish for them to think that we won't come after them. I have faith in the current generation. The activation energy maybe high but boy do they protest when they do :)
- devnonymous 9y ago
  > I am also in the "make it compulsory for income tax" group. I don't get this ! What exactly is this linkage solving ? Additionally everyone who advocates this disregards the fact that there are Non-resident Indians who are required to pay taxes but they are not entitled to an Aadhaar card and resident non-Indians who also need to pay taxes who are not required to get an Aadhaar card. Additionally, how exactly is the deduplication of the PAN database happening ? (ie: who is doing this and what information do they have access to ? eg: is it a private entity who would also benefit from knowing tax income slabs for analytics ?? ...do you really want your service providers insurance/health care/ISP/grocery provider to know the income tax slab you fit in ?)
  - eklavya 9y ago
    I think the Income Tax department can do the dedup themselves right? Seems easy, no different pan cards can have the same aadhar number? Income tax records are protected by very strict laws already.
    - devnonymous 9y ago
      ...they could but are they doing it ? Do you know whom to ask ? Do you know whether you even have the right to ask these questions and get an answer ? ...and if you get the answer that they are not doing it and instead a private entity will handle it, will you have a choice to not link your PAN card to Aadhaar ?
      - eklavya 9y ago
hackuser 9y ago
Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? Does anyone know about any serious research or reporting on it? Chinese and Russian operations are well-known and reported, but I haven't heard of Indian ones. Seeing the same, generally weak talking points, angrily defending the Indian government, advocating nationalistic points of view, and repeated over and over - it all reminds me of threads critical of China and Russia.
- prodmerc 9y ago
  I'm not defending anything, it's just extremely hypocritical to accuse India's system of being dystopian while currently existing systems in "developed" nations are even worse.
  - _nedR 9y ago
    America doesn't have this. EU doesn't have this. AFAIK only UAE has such a comprehensive system. What countries are you talking about that takes mandatory 10-finger + retina scans of its citizens and compiles it into a single database? India hasn't banned DDT which has been banned for decades in every other country. We have crippled infrastructure, severe poverty. Yet India has time and money to implement one of the most ambitious Universal ID systems in the world.
    - abhishivsaxena 9y ago
      DDT isn't banned in most countries. It's actually recommended by WHO for INDOOR use in Malria control because it's the only viable option. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ I was hoping to only hear Anti Aadhaar FUD in this thread. Had no idea you had your target set on DDT as well. As for comparision with USA/EU, India is a different country with different set of problem/challenges. Instead of Aping others we should apply our mind to the problem and come up with solution. Aadhaar is the best example of that.
      - _nedR 9y ago
devnonymous 9y ago
One thing I find frustrating in these arguments about Aadhaar is that the people defending it seem to align themselves by political affiliation. People have to remember that even if the present government has good intentions and the PM is doodh ka dhulla (translation: incorruptible), Governments do not last but these programs will and if there is a way to exploit something at this scale, you better bet it some government (if not today's) will.
samblr 9y ago
Who has power to abuse in unique identification system (aadhaar) - individual or state? State. Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low. (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian? Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-worker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ? Although I am not against having an unique ID for citizens in a country. Such systems will become easy tools for few powerful. We so often get rants in HN about facebook(and others) abusing privacy (listening to audio, tracking most of our web browsing). How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ? edit: removed a sentence which got repeated.
- abhishivsaxena 9y ago
  > (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian? Aadhaar has nothing to do with you web activity. It's used as KYC - Know your Customer - for getting the JIO connection. It's optional, and as an alternative you can submit a xerox of any ID documents for your KYC. Most european countries require an ID document to get a mobile connection as well - Italy for example. > Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-woker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO More apt analogy would be that should a US citizen use SSN to to get a bank account at Citibank? BIG YES > India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ? That has nothing to do with Aadhaar so I would ignore it. > Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low. It's also one of the freest countries in Asia according to Freedom House, and has robust institutions. It's the world's biggest democracy for 70 years now - during which western countries like Spain and Portugal were rules by dictators. Please keep you condescending attitude to yourself. Indias are well informed to make an informed choice in this matter, and they have. EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT: > How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ? Because Mister it's only used for KYC. Aadhaar system only stores a few attributes - Name/DOB/gender/address-if-available. That's data every goverment in this world keeps of its citizens. Do you understand now how you and Mozilla are fear mongering?
dang 9y ago
All: many commenters in this thread have violated the HN guidelines very badly. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of which side of a debate they take. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all. That includes not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence. Somebody merely disagreeing with you does not count as evidence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
hackuser 9y ago
Well, I agree the discussion is pretty awful. But this policy is a bit unclear to me (and otherwise unwritten, AFAICT): > not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence That's confusing: What evidence could users have? In my comment, one of the ones you objected to, I cited some strong patterns in the discussion. That's going to be the best evidence that users have access to unless it's very clumsily executed. The astroturfers aren't going to out themselves; looking like ordinary users is the fundamental requirement of 'astroturf'. So if there's no possible sufficient evidence, do you really mean, 'don't bring it up at all?' I understand not accusing individuals without evidence, but nobody even should point out the general possibility, saying for example, "it seems like something odd is going on here; all these talking points look the same and are made provocatively ..."? There is no doubt astroturf happens here, simply because there is overwhelming evidence that it is rampant on the Internet and HN isn't exempt. If users can't discuss the topic at all (probably not what you meant), that would shield the bad actors and be a recipe for it to happen unrestrained. EDIT: some clarifying edits
- dang 9y ago
  We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14432749 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14432749 and marked it off-topic.
  - deleted 9y ago
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- deleted 9y ago
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ashwinaj 9y ago
I recently made a trip to India; just a week earlier me and a few friends were talking about driver less cars, automation, AI etc.(you know the usual SV talking points) When I landed there all this futuristic talk flew out of my head; it is a very different world out there. I am reminded of this feeling, because this author sits in his/her nice comfy office in Mountain View mouthing off on something with no understanding of ground realities; to me this is absurd. When I say reality, I mean actually living there. Taj Mahal selfies and elephant rides are not counted :) Does anyone care about privacy in India as much as they do in the US? I seriously doubt it. Let's be real, most of us (Indians in the US) did not even know what privacy meant and we don't really care about it. If we did, we wouldn't be posting on FB, Twitter, Instagram etc. or signing up for a time share presentation just to get a 3 day hotel stay ;)
- intended 9y ago
  Most Indian's, wouldn't care about a constitution, demonstrably don't care about sanitation, and are easily sidelined by superstition. Yet, they try every day - to over come that with whatever tools and education in front of them. MANY people in India, aside from the brigade yelling "efficiency and progress", do not value efficiency and progress. So they do care, and will definitely care once they realize they were sold a bum dream.
  - ashwinaj 9y ago
    > demonstrably don't care about sanitation, and are easily sidelined by superstition. Exactly, thanks for making my point. There are such fundamental problems in India that privacy laws are the least of the layman's problems. Do you seriously think someone who doesn't have basic ameneties (that we take for granted) cares about this? Get real, they don't.
    - intended 9y ago
      Why do you think Ambedkar made the constitution with the protections he did? Why did Gandhi fight for dignity and freedom at the same time. A country is not its GDP, the GDP is valuable because it serves the country. You deeply underestimate the intelligence and drive of the people, as well as the protections people need. Do you think all these people in the west don't see this? See this math on privacy vs efficiency? They do. And they've seen what it does, and it's been bad enough that it's been burnt into them through generations.
akytt 9y ago
Aadhaar per se is quite harmless. It is pretty much what Estonia has been doing for the past 25 years with no ill effects. Quite in contrary. The question is privacy: we have a strong personal privacy law and are moving to make things more transparent all the time. People do care about this. Whether that's the case in India and to what extent, is up to Indians to say. Ehat I find outrageous is that Cambridge Analytica can assemble a full profile of everybody in the country and it's just progress. But, god forbid, the government institutes an identifier to provide better services!
_pythonlover_ 9y ago
I'm all for aadhaar but I'd like to know who has access to my information and why did they get it. Also If possible I'd like to have a degree of control over it. Also I'd like to know how they secure it without using a bunch of PR terms. These are all valid questions raised by that article but could have done a better job of explaining these problems and its implications.
- abhishivsaxena 9y ago
  You can ask aadhaar to dispatch notifications to you every time an authentiction happens. Non govt agencies need your consent to get your data, if you don't want that just don't authenticate. The article suggests that government is selling your data to private companies, which is such a big misrepresentation I wonder how Mozilla let its name be used for it. Do they not care for their reputation anymore? Private companies can access your data only if you give them you consent by authenticating, and all they get is name/dob/gender/address-if-avialable. Which they would have anyways since you are their customer - mobile provider, bank etc. There should be an overarching privacy law in India covering disclosure, insurance, etc; but that's a separate debate.
  - intended 9y ago
    Right, and them getting that it self is a huge change in the Aadhar act Aadhar was originally sold as just an ack this number matches those finger prints. Now in the 2016 act, it provides all those details. All of which are enough to determine your religion, caste and more. The issue is not about the tech, it is about trust and about rights. None of which are directly responsible for increasing GDP, just the same way GDP is not responsible for making the difference between being a bunch of companies and being a nation.
    - abhishivsaxena 9y ago
      KYC was a part of Aadhaar from day one. I assume you are implying someone can determine your religion, caste and more by using your name. If you signup for a bank account or a mobile company, they would have your name/dob in any case - Aadhaar or No-Aadhaar. Like in any other country on this planet. This isn't textbook definition of causing FUD? And it's shocking that Mozilla is at forefront of it. Also, using buzzwords like "trust", "rights" doesn't augment your arguments, if it's missing a coherent rational structure.
xeronkek 9y ago
What the fuck is this bullshit system?
intended 9y ago
Its unsurprising that there can be no civil conversation on this topic on HN. The tech sphere in India is divided into straight up optimizers, for whom things like privacy are an impediment to the progress of the nation. Said progress will make everyone's lives better, so it must progress. These are the majority of coders that seem to be in the Indian sphere. In sharp contrast, are the people currently fighting Aadhar in the Supreme court, who believe that privacy is the fundament of a nation in the first place. That without privacy you cannot have a democracy. And this is just online, what actually happens between the closed doors of power is utterly bereft of what normal American HN crowd would consider civil liberties and human rights. For those who actually control the system, losses and inaccuracy in aadhar are the same as errors in banking transactions. As long as theres a X sigma error rate, they don't care.
jhgjklj 9y ago
Without privacy there is no democracy. Law for privacy should be established.

132 points by hackuser 9y ago

Aadhaar is one of those programs which is a solution looking for a problem, at huge cost of privacy, security and government surveillance. See https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/

drieddust 9y ago
Agreed but even most of the very literate ones does not understand the implication. Everyone is so gung-ho about having a single identity tied back to bio-metric data that highlighting the privacy concerns and historical misuse have no effect.
- intended 9y ago
  And its not even historical misuse. Aadhar has been abused in the present, the government has lied about its purpose over its entire existence and has directly abused SC instructions. The AG for the govt has gone on and said that Indian's don't have a right to privacy in court, and their numbers don't hold up to scrutiny. This has all happened in the present, none of what I have said is even exaggeration, it's actually happened. The iSpirit guy was caught, publicly, creating a troll army to abuse Pro Privacy supporters. Its insane. Do not expect the people fighting for aadhar to ever stop supporting it. Aadhar is their hero, it ushers in a new age for India - any one who fights against this new age is misguided at best, or an enemy of progress at worst. Its absurd.

bpodgursky 9y ago

Seriously Mozilla? The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector. It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas. It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems, and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral litmus tests.

gkcgautam 9y ago
Aadhar isn't really solving these problems, but in fact is compromising on the privacy of the citizens of India. See https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/
- aub3bhat 9y ago
  All those myths are strawman arguments.
  - flak48 9y ago
    Why is Aadhar being made compulsory for rail/air travel or for getting cellular connections? What problem is biometrics in these areas going to solve?
    - petertodd 9y ago
      Privacy... I think the problem here is ultimately that people aren't doing proper threat modeling, and failing to include the government itself as a potential threat. The most terrifying consulting contract I've ever been offered was a project to entirely replace cash in a country with a "blockchain" currency scheme. In addition to the requirements that both buyer and seller be 100% identified (likely by biometrics), there was also a requirement that every receipt be uploaded to a government run server, allowing exactly what was being bought to be tracked in detail in real-time. And of course, there was the requirement that it be possible to freeze accounts on demand. I asked the client what country the project was ultimately going to be for, and they didn't really want to tell me (citing NDA's and what not). But I did get them to finally admit it wasn't a democracy, it was a dictatorship. Pretty obvious that dictatorship wanted even more control over their citizens. Needless to say, I turned the contract down as being involved would be incredibly unethical. But how much more ethical is it really to do the same type of project in a country that's supposed to be a democracy? I'm not so sure there's a clear difference, given how quickly privacy protections can be removed. Look at how census data was used to round up the Japanese in the USA during WWII for instance.
9y ago

davesque 9y ago

Does anyone know what sort of data they collect on people to identify them? One reason I ask is that I wonder how such a system could be used to provide a "scientific" answer as to what caste a person belongs. That would obviously be a little worrisome if it were possible.

intended 9y ago
You have surname data, and also given address. On top of it this data is often found floating around in many unguarded excel files all over the web. Its trivially easy to break people into caste buckets.

aub3bhat 9y ago

This is ridiculous fearmongering at a scale unseen before, given the enormous amount of corruption in Indian public distribution schemes, Aadhar has potential to be revolutionary in not only reducing corruption but also in providing poor people in India with assistance that they currently lack. Its easy to be a rich and employed in SF and pontificate about how other countries should run their government. Mozilla is equivalent of those who criticized "Green revolution" because if fed starving people without causing "social revolution" etc. Aadhar has potential to cause "Digital revolution" and decades from now Mozilla will be on the wrong side of history. Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.

adityab 9y ago
> Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors. This is BS because getting a visa is a conscious choice, Aadhar is forced upon India's residents. You're attacking people for having an opinion that's contrary to yours. About your other points - no one is denying the benefits of having a strong unique ID system that lets people interface with government services; the problem is that Aadhar has no safeguards for privacy - which you would've focused on had you bothered to read the article.
- aub3bhat 9y ago
  You are the one full of bullshit because if you are okay with surrendering your biometrics to a foreign government (especially the country where Mozilla is based out of) you don't have any right to complain about your own country seeking similar access. The article is written by people with political agenda, Aadhar is million times better than SSN or other such systems. I am extremely well versed with Security & Privacy related to authentication & identification, and most comments/articles offer no concrete solutions. Biometrics are essential to establishing unique identity.
  - adityab 9y ago
    I don't know what kind of world you live in, where you cannot believe that people can take a principled stand about a policy. Why can I not worry about my family's data being shared free-for-all by random startups that use their "Open API"? Not everything is about X team vs Y team.

mankash666 9y ago

Replace aadhar with SSN and this would still (mostly) hold true. The only difference is biometric backin in aadhar. Silly PR

mystere 9y ago
I don't really have a pony in this race, but logically, there is a difference. There are strict government laws in place to protect SSN information, such laws do not exist (apparently) in India regarding Aadhar. I don't think the argument is (mostly) about having a national ID, but about the lack of privacy of that information. Of course biometrics are bad in another way... If one needed to, you could change an ID number, you can't change your fingerprints
- ams6110 9y ago
  Social Security Number in the US pre-dates the internet and any concerns people had about privacy. People used to include it on their pre-printed personal checks along with their name and address. SSNs don't even have a checksum to detect typos, nor any convenient mechanism to issue a replacement number if one is compromised. Using the security flaws of the SSN implementation to justify security flaws in any modern identity system is just not rational. If anything it shows that people didn't learn from history.
  - hackuser 9y ago
    Generally I agree, but ... > Social Security Number in the US pre-dates the internet and any concerns people had about privacy. People in the US were concerned about privacy long before the Internet. The 4th Amendment to the US Constitution dates back to the 18th century, for example. In fact, I'd say people are much less concerned about privacy in the Internet era; they put everything online and happily give private info to corporations and government.
    - prodmerc 9y ago
      The fact is that having an SSN and the person's name can be enough to literally take his identity and do whatever you want. Or literally get a birth certificate and become a "US citizen". It's a bit more complicated, but not impossible, to do that in the UK, Belgium and Germany as well. Probably other countries, too. So you're all crying about India being dystopian while your own ID systems are completely fucked.

timwaagh 9y ago

i get it. big brother is watching us. now im going to eat my pizza. big brother can watch if he likes.

shiven 9y ago
you eat pizza, li'l brother. just don't play with my toys, or do anything you like but i don't. sooner or later, i may decide to come by and kick you butt for fun, just don't run. remember, i'm always watching.

mundanevoice 9y ago

All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place. Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things. Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks. Social Security Number in the US is pretty similar. No one gets security right the first time and nothing is secure forever. Mozilla being such a nice organisation with so many good initiatives. Why don't it come forward and dedicate some of its resources in helping out the Indian Government? Wouldn't that be better than just criticising without knowing any ground reality of how things operate in India?

adityab 9y ago
I would have been fine with Aadhar if - They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication - There would not be an API for commercial services I just want the government to be able to provide its services smoothly. I don't want random startups leaking or selling everyone's data.
- realonedev 9y ago
  Where exactly is data leaked ? All the news you hear about Aadhar privacy are fake .
- aub3bhat 9y ago
  >> They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication Aadhar provides multiple levels of security, Number > Fingerprint > Iris >= OTP / Two-Factor. Finally fingerprints are not as easy to fake, even if they are faked depending on deployment a system can randomly ask for higher level of authentication such as iris or OTP. By having these multiple authentication methods its easier to tune the system for fraud detection vs ease-of-use. I can understand why the government is not publicizing all the anti-fraud measures since its always a game of cat & mouse. >> There would not be an API for commercial services This makes no sense, in USA the SSN is typically shared with thousands of services, landlords, apps. In fact the API has potential to open up secure commerce and break the MasterCard/Visa duopoly.

2pointsomone 9y ago

The entire article's argument of breach of privacy hinges on the claim that "the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish". Is there any substantial evidence of this of broad statement? On the whole, pretty disappointed in this article from Mozilla.

devnonymous 9y ago
> Is there any substantial evidence of this of broad statement? Even if this hasn't happened yet, Are there any measures in place to keep this from happening?... Ever... Irrespective of the party in power? The current government does not even want to acknowledge the possibility let alone describe the checks and measures put in place to avoid it from happening.

realonedev 9y ago

I belong to the third world of the third world. State called Uttar Pradesh. If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India. Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar : My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents. Which means, No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe. Since the government has advertised the Direct Benefit far too much,on TV, on radio, the middleman (distributer) can't cheat anymore. This government markets everything and hence the poor and underprivileged has started questioning those the officials who don't do their jobs or provide the things exactly as advertised. The middleman I am talking about are not government employees directly, but taking a distribution agency does involve bribe payment. Those middleman paid bribe before 2014 government to get the agency, hoping that they will get the roi(i is bribe) within a few years. 2014 government single handedly has destroyed the corrupt ( who paid bribe) middleman in gas distribution Most of the proganda against this government is supported people who felt entitled being part of a government job, (extra bribe ) because the Congress Government had created deep corruption webs for 60 years. Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014. Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. All propaganda against Aadhar has been intensified only after the Aadhar number started saving money and stared to directly benefit people. Coincidence? Also, when the government decided to link Aadhar to the income tax returns, again these privacy activists have become active ? Coincidence? Remember, the old lady in a village in in 3rd world does not know about privacy, she is happy because now her 15 son does not need to stand and bribe the gas distribution agency and can study for a day extra.

ganduG 9y ago
Yes, but the old lady in the village will have a problem with it when it is used to marginalize and discriminate against her. The riots in 1984 and in 2001 showed us how voter lists can, and will, be misused by people in power to their own benefit.
- aub3bhat 9y ago
  You mean the Cincinnati riots of 2001 I can clearly see why USA should not have voter lists /s The riots happened in 2002 and NOT 2001 (at least get the year right), and unless you are arguing abolishing voter lists, or have a specific argument that involves Aadhar. I don't see how this is in anyway relevant to this discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots

devnonymous 9y ago

Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself. > The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need > them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Citation ? (not about the corruption happening, that has been well established, but about aadhaar allegedly solving this problem). > Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification > necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector. There already are a pletora of identification methods in India, including the PAN, ration card, BPL Card, Voter ID etc. In the end the problems that keep it from being 'unique' are in the implementation at the grass roots. How is Aadhaar going to change this ? There already are a lot of reports of duplication of Aadhaar. > It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas. Reliable ? Oh really ? According to the goverment's own addmission : http://aadhaarcarduid.org/uidai-cancelled-3-8-lakh-fake-aadhaar-cards/ http://aadhaarcarduid.org/uidai-cancelled-3-8-lakh-fake-aadh... > It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping > programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple > hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because > their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this > conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems, > and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral > litmus tests. Firstly, the Indian goverment is not even interested in debating or engaing people who have a different viewpoint than them, including the Superme Court of India. So, tell me again, which is this India you speak about that is allegedly soloving its problems ? I feel like Indians like me are lesser Indians than thos that toe the Goverment line. I often think about this when it comes to Indians reacting to critizims about India: Except from the book "Restart"[1] > Then the denial, the one form of intellectual argument we have mastered. > India has no problem; if it has a problem, it is nobody else’s business; > everybody else also has this problem; everybody else has other problems, why > don’t you talk about those instead; why are you saying this is a problem, it is > a part of our 5000-year- old culture; we knew the answers to all problems in > the Vedic era; even if we have this problem, it is not our fault; even if we > have this problem, we cannot accept any of the solutions that have been shown > to work elsewhere; even if we have this problem, it is much better than it was; > perhaps we have this problem, but it is none of your business. ...and this book is not even about sociology or politics, it is about economics. http://www.amazon.in/Restart-Last-Chance-Indian-Economy/dp/8184005717/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495909382&sr=8-1&keywords=restart+mihir+sharma http://www.amazon.in/Restart-Last-Chance-Indian-Economy/dp/8...

aashiks 9y ago

The short sightedness and naivety of this comment is disgusting. The poor and the rich have had "real" identification that has worked well - the electoral ID for example. Forcing aadhar down everyone's throat with no practical complaint redressal is the issue here. (Good luck getting UIDAI to take responsibility) Aadhar is not progress. Forcing biometric identification that relies on brittle infra is not progress. It is a sign of short sighted faith in solving people problems with technology. India can solve its problems by its own when it recognizes that beyond money, there are people who are willing to support its technology movement. Competant tech people have time and again come out against the architecture of the solution - the last to suffer for it was Kiran Jonnalgadda (jackerhack on twitter). This was a solution designed to give absolute oversight of people, as an exclusionary mechanism. Clarifying more. 1. Aadhar verification failures are a lot more than its advocates proposes. I have seen logs of verification failure with rates upwards of 30%. (No, I am not willing to disclose where, except that it was available publicly on the website of an organisation associated with the government). Citizens will still go starving with that kind of failure rates. Remember that Aadhar Card is a piece of paper with your Aadhar number on it and no storage whatsoever. This is different from countries like Malaysia where they have a national ID card with biometrics stored on chip. If the verification fails and it does fail all the time, good luck to the poor people who wants UIDAI (not even under legal obligation to do it by the way) to redress the complaint. 2. Privacy. I like it how everyone conviniently ignores this : "Even worse, the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish. This would allow companies to have access to some of your most intimate details and create detailed profiles of you, in ways you can’t necessarily see or control. The government can also share user data “in the interest of national security,” a term that remains dangerously undefined. There are little to no protections on how Aadhaar data is used, and certainly no meaningful user consent. Individual privacy and security cannot be adequately protected and users cannot have trust in systems when they do not have transparency or a choice in how their private information will be used." I mean WTF man. Really ? That is what a Government is supposed to do ? Sell your citizen's data ? Because that is exactly what is happening here. Good job Mozilla. You prove you stand for people.

realonedev 9y ago

abhishivsaxena 9y ago

OMG Mozilla. No wonder open internet is in such a bad shape when we have you leading it. 1) Aadhaar is not fundamentally different than a National ID which every other country in this world has. India not only lacked it, out birth registrations certificates weren't reliable at all. 2) Yes they do collection Biometrics(BM). But BM are never shared with any other agency/company. And it's strictly codified in law. BM are only used for deduplication(1b+ population), and authentication. 3) For KYC(Know your Customer) or E-Payments BM based authentication is much more secure than what's being used currently - signatures, and self attested xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop. 4) You can also ask Aadhaar server to dispatch an SMS to your mobile number every time an authentication happens. Now compare that your signature/xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop and you would have no idea about it. 5) In this changing world who would you want to control identity? A private company like Apple which can block you or some developer anytime and there would be no recourse? Or a govt agency - backed by a law of Parliament - that you can drag to court. 6) Want to build a marketplace for house-maids? Or for farmers? Don't want it bogged down by scamsters which in the end depressing adaption? Easy add Aadhaar based autnetication to your app. http://bridge.aadhaarconnect.com/ http://bridge.aadhaarconnect.com/ 7) For financial products like bank accounts, mutual funds etc Aadhaar brings down compliance cost. So for a MF while in the old system it wouldn't be viable to take an investment of less than 50k Rs because the compliance cost itself would be 1k Rs or something, now you can do it under 10 Rs. Are we making a better world or not, in which the poor have access to Mutual funds, Insurance etc or Mozilla thinks it's not? Please watch this https://youtu.be/LJCEyqcKN3Q?t=5m50s https://youtu.be/LJCEyqcKN3Q?t=5m50s and tell me which other country in this world can match this. Getting a loan in under 8 minutes. Or opening a bank account in under 10 min. This is a technological revolution - but not happening in Copenhagen or Zurich, but dusty villages of India. I have had enough of these Aadhaar critics - and now Mozilla - who have colonised their minds with some western ideas, and are unable to see what's happening in India. Bottom line, there's no better example of how technology can drastically change lives for the poor and the needy than Aadhaar. Those who are unable to see it, are usually just biased because need clicks for their publications, or need to build their reputation as security analyst or something by bashing something. Look into this thread itself, and you'll find them linking to each other's twitter profile etc. Sickening really.

9y ago

gumby 9y ago

One of the big problems of Aadhar to me is the mandatory use. I understand the terrible problems of stolen benefits, and how the card could help. But in a country as large, dispersed and disorganized as India, mandatory is a risk. Plenty of people will slip though the cracks and be unregistered. It works in a tiny country like Germany where it was built on top of other infrastructure (ID cards were introduced in the 1930s; other uses were introduced lated once they had become essentially ubiquitous). In addition, the lesson of China is salutary: siblings (whose very existence violated the one child policy) were often not registered, and thus missed out on schooling and other benefits. The "hukou" system controlled who was allowed to work or travel -- and surely everyone can imagine a government trying to fight urban slums by prohibiting migration from the countryside (by denying benefits)?

abhishivsaxena 9y ago
How come you don't know that 99% adults have Aaadhaar in India at last count? Or if you knew still decided to raise this point.
- shiven 9y ago
  Where are you getting the 99% number? Any proof of that?
  - abhishivsaxena 9y ago
    93% in 2015 according to UIDAI - http://www.firstpost.com/india/about-93-percent-of-adults-in-india-have-aadhaar-card-says-uidai-2489084.html http://www.firstpost.com/india/about-93-percent-of-adults-in... 99% in 2017 according to the the minister - http://www.thehindu.com/business/Aadhaar-covers-99-of-adults-in-India-Prasad/article17104609.ece http://www.thehindu.com/business/Aadhaar-covers-99-of-adults... 1.11+ B people All this is easily googleable. I fail to understand why you and the OP wouldn't just check it before fear mongering.
    - realonedev 9y ago

thisisit 9y ago

The amount of people calling FUD is amazing. Let's first talk about the implementation: How many cards do we have in India specially for ID purposes? PAN for taxes, Raashan card for food grains and subsidies are the two names I can think of from the gamut of ids. Now a person needs Aadhar to literally do everything not including taxes and subsidies. Why is that? Isn't it enough that people kowtow to babus to get their other cards that we now need this? People praising direct benefits, was it not possible using raashan card? If your answer is well they could be fakes? Then wake up to the fact that there can be fake Aadhar cards too. Second, lets talk about privacy. Fine there is a new card. Why do they need iris scans and finger prints? What is the need? That too in a government infrastructure which is surely not protecting it properly - http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDAI-temporarily-halts-Aadhaar-payments-by-Axis-Bank-two-o.html http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDA... UIDAI said this: “It is an isolated case of an employee working with a bank’s Business Correspondent company making an attempt to misuse his own biometrics which was detected by UIDAI internal security system and subsequently actions under the Aadhaar Act have been initiated,” according to a statement by UIDAI. (http://www.livemint.com/Politics/poeRx6xesHcUn6WpOJuJjN/Aadhaar-data-base-fully-safe-and-secure-says-UIDAI.html http://www.livemint.com/Politics/poeRx6xesHcUn6WpOJuJjN/Aadh...) So it is a system which can be compromised by a motivated employee? What was the benefit again? Oh right stamping out corruption. Lets see how long that lasts. I have refused to get Aadhar card because I don't want to share my biometric data. Many say what is wrong if you have or never going to do something wrong. I refer to you: "Don’t confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secrecy." (https://medium.com/@FabioAEsteves/i-have-nothing-to-hide-why-should-i-care-about-my-privacy-f488281b8f1d https://medium.com/@FabioAEsteves/i-have-nothing-to-hide-why...) I never wanted one because I am not opting for subsidies by choice. I earn enough and pay my taxes on time. But this forced choice of filing returns only using Aadhar has left me no choice. And for the tinfoils out there. About some kind of conspiracy about the timing. Same could be said about Aadhar. What is the reason government is rejecting people's concern and supreme court directive of not making this mandatory? If some kind of foreign money is involved is the logic here, same could be said about Nandan Nilekani and his private company which started this all.

9y ago

0xelectron 9y ago

It sounds and looks really bad, but, India currently is so desperate to ridicule corruption that it's going to any lengths possible, which includes invading people's privacy. Now, I don't know if that's the right thing to do.

CommanderData 9y ago

These comments demonstrate how patriotism can affect ones rational and objective thinking. There are understandably benefits and convenience, however the articles focus is not that. It highlights the inherent threats to citizens individual freedoms that has somehow been missed by commentators.

shiven 9y ago
Nationalism, not patriotism. The latter is fine, the former is a bloody cancer.
abhishivsaxena 9y ago
Contrary is also true. How fear mongering and condescending attitude towards others can make you delusional to not see the facts in plain sight.

aashiks 9y ago

https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/ Posting these for everyone's benefit.

aashiks 9y ago

https://rethinkaadhaar.in/testimonials/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/testimonials/ ^ What happens when a centralised system with brittle architecture fails. For all the nationalistic spiel, the fact remains that even if I have a passport that proves my identity, service providers (public and private, equally) are forced to ask (or just blindly ask for) my Aadhar number (which I don't have) . Ironic isn't it.

eklavya 9y ago

I am in the wait and watch camp. So far aadhar has shown promise and benefits. I am also in the "make it compulsory for income tax" group. For privacy, they will get their act together I hope (plug leakages if any). If they don't, it would be foolish for them to think that we won't come after them. I have faith in the current generation. The activation energy maybe high but boy do they protest when they do :)

devnonymous 9y ago
> I am also in the "make it compulsory for income tax" group. I don't get this ! What exactly is this linkage solving ? Additionally everyone who advocates this disregards the fact that there are Non-resident Indians who are required to pay taxes but they are not entitled to an Aadhaar card and resident non-Indians who also need to pay taxes who are not required to get an Aadhaar card. Additionally, how exactly is the deduplication of the PAN database happening ? (ie: who is doing this and what information do they have access to ? eg: is it a private entity who would also benefit from knowing tax income slabs for analytics ?? ...do you really want your service providers insurance/health care/ISP/grocery provider to know the income tax slab you fit in ?)
- eklavya 9y ago
  I think the Income Tax department can do the dedup themselves right? Seems easy, no different pan cards can have the same aadhar number? Income tax records are protected by very strict laws already.
  - devnonymous 9y ago
    ...they could but are they doing it ? Do you know whom to ask ? Do you know whether you even have the right to ask these questions and get an answer ? ...and if you get the answer that they are not doing it and instead a private entity will handle it, will you have a choice to not link your PAN card to Aadhaar ?
    - eklavya 9y ago

hackuser 9y ago

Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? Does anyone know about any serious research or reporting on it? Chinese and Russian operations are well-known and reported, but I haven't heard of Indian ones. Seeing the same, generally weak talking points, angrily defending the Indian government, advocating nationalistic points of view, and repeated over and over - it all reminds me of threads critical of China and Russia.

prodmerc 9y ago
I'm not defending anything, it's just extremely hypocritical to accuse India's system of being dystopian while currently existing systems in "developed" nations are even worse.
- _nedR 9y ago
  America doesn't have this. EU doesn't have this. AFAIK only UAE has such a comprehensive system. What countries are you talking about that takes mandatory 10-finger + retina scans of its citizens and compiles it into a single database? India hasn't banned DDT which has been banned for decades in every other country. We have crippled infrastructure, severe poverty. Yet India has time and money to implement one of the most ambitious Universal ID systems in the world.
  - abhishivsaxena 9y ago
    DDT isn't banned in most countries. It's actually recommended by WHO for INDOOR use in Malria control because it's the only viable option. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ I was hoping to only hear Anti Aadhaar FUD in this thread. Had no idea you had your target set on DDT as well. As for comparision with USA/EU, India is a different country with different set of problem/challenges. Instead of Aping others we should apply our mind to the problem and come up with solution. Aadhaar is the best example of that.
    - _nedR 9y ago

devnonymous 9y ago

One thing I find frustrating in these arguments about Aadhaar is that the people defending it seem to align themselves by political affiliation. People have to remember that even if the present government has good intentions and the PM is doodh ka dhulla (translation: incorruptible), Governments do not last but these programs will and if there is a way to exploit something at this scale, you better bet it some government (if not today's) will.

samblr 9y ago

Who has power to abuse in unique identification system (aadhaar) - individual or state? State. Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low. (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian? Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-worker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ? Although I am not against having an unique ID for citizens in a country. Such systems will become easy tools for few powerful. We so often get rants in HN about facebook(and others) abusing privacy (listening to audio, tracking most of our web browsing). How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ? edit: removed a sentence which got repeated.

abhishivsaxena 9y ago
> (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian? Aadhaar has nothing to do with you web activity. It's used as KYC - Know your Customer - for getting the JIO connection. It's optional, and as an alternative you can submit a xerox of any ID documents for your KYC. Most european countries require an ID document to get a mobile connection as well - Italy for example. > Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-woker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO More apt analogy would be that should a US citizen use SSN to to get a bank account at Citibank? BIG YES > India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ? That has nothing to do with Aadhaar so I would ignore it. > Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low. It's also one of the freest countries in Asia according to Freedom House, and has robust institutions. It's the world's biggest democracy for 70 years now - during which western countries like Spain and Portugal were rules by dictators. Please keep you condescending attitude to yourself. Indias are well informed to make an informed choice in this matter, and they have. EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT: > How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ? Because Mister it's only used for KYC. Aadhaar system only stores a few attributes - Name/DOB/gender/address-if-available. That's data every goverment in this world keeps of its citizens. Do you understand now how you and Mozilla are fear mongering?

dang 9y ago

All: many commenters in this thread have violated the HN guidelines very badly. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of which side of a debate they take. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all. That includes not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence. Somebody merely disagreeing with you does not count as evidence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

hackuser 9y ago

Well, I agree the discussion is pretty awful. But this policy is a bit unclear to me (and otherwise unwritten, AFAICT): > not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence That's confusing: What evidence could users have? In my comment, one of the ones you objected to, I cited some strong patterns in the discussion. That's going to be the best evidence that users have access to unless it's very clumsily executed. The astroturfers aren't going to out themselves; looking like ordinary users is the fundamental requirement of 'astroturf'. So if there's no possible sufficient evidence, do you really mean, 'don't bring it up at all?' I understand not accusing individuals without evidence, but nobody even should point out the general possibility, saying for example, "it seems like something odd is going on here; all these talking points look the same and are made provocatively ..."? There is no doubt astroturf happens here, simply because there is overwhelming evidence that it is rampant on the Internet and HN isn't exempt. If users can't discuss the topic at all (probably not what you meant), that would shield the bad actors and be a recipe for it to happen unrestrained. EDIT: some clarifying edits

dang 9y ago
We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14432749 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14432749 and marked it off-topic.
- deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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ashwinaj 9y ago

I recently made a trip to India; just a week earlier me and a few friends were talking about driver less cars, automation, AI etc.(you know the usual SV talking points) When I landed there all this futuristic talk flew out of my head; it is a very different world out there. I am reminded of this feeling, because this author sits in his/her nice comfy office in Mountain View mouthing off on something with no understanding of ground realities; to me this is absurd. When I say reality, I mean actually living there. Taj Mahal selfies and elephant rides are not counted :) Does anyone care about privacy in India as much as they do in the US? I seriously doubt it. Let's be real, most of us (Indians in the US) did not even know what privacy meant and we don't really care about it. If we did, we wouldn't be posting on FB, Twitter, Instagram etc. or signing up for a time share presentation just to get a 3 day hotel stay ;)

intended 9y ago
Most Indian's, wouldn't care about a constitution, demonstrably don't care about sanitation, and are easily sidelined by superstition. Yet, they try every day - to over come that with whatever tools and education in front of them. MANY people in India, aside from the brigade yelling "efficiency and progress", do not value efficiency and progress. So they do care, and will definitely care once they realize they were sold a bum dream.
- ashwinaj 9y ago
  > demonstrably don't care about sanitation, and are easily sidelined by superstition. Exactly, thanks for making my point. There are such fundamental problems in India that privacy laws are the least of the layman's problems. Do you seriously think someone who doesn't have basic ameneties (that we take for granted) cares about this? Get real, they don't.
  - intended 9y ago
    Why do you think Ambedkar made the constitution with the protections he did? Why did Gandhi fight for dignity and freedom at the same time. A country is not its GDP, the GDP is valuable because it serves the country. You deeply underestimate the intelligence and drive of the people, as well as the protections people need. Do you think all these people in the west don't see this? See this math on privacy vs efficiency? They do. And they've seen what it does, and it's been bad enough that it's been burnt into them through generations.

akytt 9y ago

Aadhaar per se is quite harmless. It is pretty much what Estonia has been doing for the past 25 years with no ill effects. Quite in contrary. The question is privacy: we have a strong personal privacy law and are moving to make things more transparent all the time. People do care about this. Whether that's the case in India and to what extent, is up to Indians to say. Ehat I find outrageous is that Cambridge Analytica can assemble a full profile of everybody in the country and it's just progress. But, god forbid, the government institutes an identifier to provide better services!

_pythonlover_ 9y ago

I'm all for aadhaar but I'd like to know who has access to my information and why did they get it. Also If possible I'd like to have a degree of control over it. Also I'd like to know how they secure it without using a bunch of PR terms. These are all valid questions raised by that article but could have done a better job of explaining these problems and its implications.

abhishivsaxena 9y ago
You can ask aadhaar to dispatch notifications to you every time an authentiction happens. Non govt agencies need your consent to get your data, if you don't want that just don't authenticate. The article suggests that government is selling your data to private companies, which is such a big misrepresentation I wonder how Mozilla let its name be used for it. Do they not care for their reputation anymore? Private companies can access your data only if you give them you consent by authenticating, and all they get is name/dob/gender/address-if-avialable. Which they would have anyways since you are their customer - mobile provider, bank etc. There should be an overarching privacy law in India covering disclosure, insurance, etc; but that's a separate debate.
- intended 9y ago
  Right, and them getting that it self is a huge change in the Aadhar act Aadhar was originally sold as just an ack this number matches those finger prints. Now in the 2016 act, it provides all those details. All of which are enough to determine your religion, caste and more. The issue is not about the tech, it is about trust and about rights. None of which are directly responsible for increasing GDP, just the same way GDP is not responsible for making the difference between being a bunch of companies and being a nation.
  - abhishivsaxena 9y ago
    KYC was a part of Aadhaar from day one. I assume you are implying someone can determine your religion, caste and more by using your name. If you signup for a bank account or a mobile company, they would have your name/dob in any case - Aadhaar or No-Aadhaar. Like in any other country on this planet. This isn't textbook definition of causing FUD? And it's shocking that Mozilla is at forefront of it. Also, using buzzwords like "trust", "rights" doesn't augment your arguments, if it's missing a coherent rational structure.

xeronkek 9y ago

What the fuck is this bullshit system?

intended 9y ago

Its unsurprising that there can be no civil conversation on this topic on HN. The tech sphere in India is divided into straight up optimizers, for whom things like privacy are an impediment to the progress of the nation. Said progress will make everyone's lives better, so it must progress. These are the majority of coders that seem to be in the Indian sphere. In sharp contrast, are the people currently fighting Aadhar in the Supreme court, who believe that privacy is the fundament of a nation in the first place. That without privacy you cannot have a democracy. And this is just online, what actually happens between the closed doors of power is utterly bereft of what normal American HN crowd would consider civil liberties and human rights. For those who actually control the system, losses and inaccuracy in aadhar are the same as errors in banking transactions. As long as theres a X sigma error rate, they don't care.

jhgjklj 9y ago

Without privacy there is no democracy. Law for privacy should be established.