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Marine Corps Shelves Futuristic Robo-Mule Due to Noise Concerns
- homerowilson 11y agoThere are these things called "mules." They're quiet, can carry about 200lbs., and can refuel themselves as they go by eating grass and drinking water...
- lazypenguin 11y agoAnd they don't cost $40+mm
- Thriptic 11y agoAnd you can eat them in times of scarcity. The robotic ones aren't nearly as tasty.
- hellofunk 11y agoSpeak for yourself. Diets motivated by iron deficiency are a real thing.
- OldSchoolJohnny 11y agoAlthough in modern times it's almost ridiculously hard to avoid added iron in food these days due to enforced fortification based on outdated ideas from the 1940's.
- mapt 11y agoper http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/13/a-host-of-ills-when-irons-out-of-balance/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/13/a-host-of-ills-when... , iron deficiency prevalence is 3% and iron excess intake prevalence is 12%.
- cetacea 11y ago> $40+mm 40 million million dollars?
- neiled 11y agohttp://www.accountingcoach.com/blog/what-does-m-and-mm-stand-for http://www.accountingcoach.com/blog/what-does-m-and-mm-stand...
- cetacea 11y agoI think most other people use a single M to mean million, and k for thousand. Can't we just use SI prefixes or spell the numbers out instead of using some random alternate convention?
- greglindahl 11y agoThis is not a "random alternate convention", it's a highly used convention that you aren't familiar with. I wasn't familiar with it, either, until I moved to the Silicon Valley. Now I see it all the time.
- wavefunction 11y agoIt's a ridiculous "convention" and it's dubious what you mean by "highly used." Using Roman numerals for anything is a waste of everyone's time.
- nitrogen 11y agoI don't think it's necessarily actually Roman numerals, but perhaps "mille", which means thousand. So thousand thousand means million.
- jonathankoren 11y agoI strongly suspect that the page's etymology is wrong -- or more precisely -- not entirely correct. The Latin word for "thousand" is mille, which why the numeral for a thousand is M. No one would be so asinine to mix numeral systems. Same thing with percent, which originally was rendered as "per-cent", as in "per hundred".
- lmm 11y agoThe logistics of keeping them fed and watered, having trained handlers, and treating them for injuries are nontrivial. And they're prone to unhelpful reactions in a firefight. There are good reasons they've largely been displaced by motor vehicles. Combining the go-anywhere ability of legged propulsion with the advantages of motor transport seems like a good enough idea to merit study.
- JabavuAdams 11y agoMuch easier than the logistics of keeping a robot operational in the field. You don't care whether the Taliban captures your flesh and blood mule, but you really don't want them capturing your world's-most-advanced robotic mule.
- jonmrodriguez 11y agoIs it common for military electronics to have a self-destruct feature to protect technology secrets? E.g., when damaged beyond repair or abandoned in a hasty retreat, the hardware could ignite a little thermite to incinerate the electronics boards.
- nitrogen 11y agoOne of the stealth helicopters used in the assassination of bin Laden was so destroyed, but a part of the tail was left behind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden#Helicopter_stealth_technology_revelations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden#Helic...
- Gracana 11y agoI used to have some old (tube-based) test equipment that included instructions on exploding it with a grenade in the event that it had to be left behind. The grenade was not built in, however.
- grogenaut 11y agoWhy? What are they going to do with it?
- melling 11y agoYeah, but they get all nervous around gunfire and explosions. They don't handle helicopters and the airdrop well either. Packing several dozen of them to fit into a C130 for the 12 hour overseas trip is also a bit difficult.
- eliteraspberrie 11y agoYaks and camels too, depending on the environment.
- dredmorbius 11y agoAnd if you ever run out of things to do, you can shave your yak.
- dingaling 11y ago> and can refuel themselves as they go by eating grass and drinking water... Try finding 30 litres of water and 8 kg of grass ( plus a portion of salt ) per mule per day, minimum, in the mountains of Afghanistan. To move 90 kg of payload? There are many more efficient methods.
- AndrewKemendo 11y agoActually they work great. We (Air Force Special Operation) used them and horses to great effect in 2001 and the ANA have been using them before and ever since. http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/operation-enduring-freedom-the-first-49-days-4/ http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/operation-endurin... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/for-afghan-troops-donkeys-are-the-new-helicopters/2012/11/08/d221c2de-28bd-11e2-aaa5-ac786110c486_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/for-afghan...
- gozur88 11y ago>Try finding 30 litres of water and 8 kg of grass ( plus a portion of salt ) per mule per day, minimum, in the mountains of Afghanistan. Is it any easier than finding diesel fuel?
- 1024core 11y agoThough sometimes the tables are turned: http://imgfave-herokuapp-com.global.ssl.fastly.net/image_cache/1325126065137511.jpg http://imgfave-herokuapp-com.global.ssl.fastly.net/image_cac...
- ck2 11y agoIrony of it being all electric motors/actuators but needing a gas engine to power it so it is very loud.
- gene-h 11y agoIf it is like the original big dog then it doesn't use electric motors/actuators it uses hydraulics that are driven by the gas engine.[0] Supposedly it gets ~0.5 miles per gallon. [0] http://www.bostondynamics.com/img/BigDog_Overview.pdf http://www.bostondynamics.com/img/BigDog_Overview.pdf
- wehadfun 11y agowhy do they need this. What are they carrying? Are marines supposed to go without resupplies for weeks/months where they would need an additional robot mule to carry everything?
- arethuza 11y agoI found this interesting article: http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2013/march/pages/marinecorpsstruggleswithsea-basedsupplylines.aspx http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2013/march/pa... Which includes this quote: "“What we’ve seen is that when Marines come ashore, they’re carrying 130 pounds of food, water, batteries, ammo, you name it, on their backs because fundamentally, they don’t trust sea-based logistics to keep them supplied,”
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- ZanyProgrammer 11y agoWhich is ironic, because since World War 2 the Marines basically function as a de facto Army, and enjoy all the benefits of American global air and sea superiority. Really, as a former soldier myself, the ideal solution is to stop having soldiers and Marines carrying so much damn gear. Much, much easier said than done. *By ironic I mean "silly ass Marines"
- mattlutze 11y agoCombat loads have been increasing for decades as we load our troops with new tech and body armor. A US Army report indicates an average of 87-127 lbs (40-58 kg) carry load [0]. Another here [1] indicates 90-110 lbs. US Army doctrine prescribes a max load of 60lb, but troops regularly are exceeding the guidance due to operational necessity. It's incredibly stressful on the body and is a major indicator in early joint and soft tissue degeneration in our soldiers and Marines. The branches are all looking at ways to reduce the load. Pack "animals" are an excellent option to offload heavy equipment and improve the health and long-term mobility of our combat forces. 0: http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20110214/NEWS/102140308/Report-Combat-soldiers-carry-too-much-weight http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20110214/NEWS/102140308... 1: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/call_01-15_ch11.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/c...
- outside1234 11y agois it range anxiety that drives using a gas motor versus battery pack and solar panels?
- varjag 11y agoIt takes more energy per mile for a walker versus a car, so apparently batteries are ruled out so far. Solar is not an option in practical transportation. The energy yield per surface area is way too low.
- orionblastar 11y agoSo then no AT-AT or AT-ST walkers because of the same problems. Better stick to tanks instead.
- varjag 11y agoTanks are not exactly solar or battery driven either, am not quite sure what is your point.
- Lambdanaut 11y agoThese are the "Big Dog" mules being built by Boston Dynamics, who was recently acquired by Google. Google has been against militarizing the robots since acquisition, so they're no doubt happy to have this contract dropped. To be clear, this doesn't mean the project is shelved, it means the contract with the Marine Corps is shelved. Google will be able to focus more directly on civilian uses for the mules from here on out.
- Shivetya 11y agoWell this technology certainly has far more uses than the military, specifically search and rescue. Send these puppies in to hard hit areas, isolated spots, and the like, with supplies and such. The military will get their robots so we have to accept that but we can use all that research into making them do useful and humanitarian missions. No one will care if that rescue robot is noisy.
- jt2190 11y agoIn general the amount of U.S. government spending for "search and rescue" is dwarfed by spending on the military. In that context having a military application (or the pretense of one) for this tech gives it access to the money necessary to continue research.
- melling 11y agoWhy are they against militarizing robots? It pays the bills. They could start with consumers or business but it's harder to build a market. This makes it harder to fund further development. Once the technology is developed by anyone for non-military use, transitioning to the military is easy. There's not some magic that prevents consumer developed technology from reaching the battlefield.
- Lambdanaut 11y agoI think it's just a principle thing. The founders built Google on a policy of "Don't be evil", and war-robots may be considered evil depending on your own perspective.
- jarmitage 11y agoCan anyone in robotics weigh in on whether new approaches like pneubotics / otherlab [0, 1] make Boston Dynamics' super heavy/noisy/expensive robots irrelevant or not? That's what Saul Griffith has been saying at least [2], I'd like to hear an impartial take on it [0] http://www.pneubotics.com/ http://www.pneubotics.com/ [1] https://otherlab.com/projects https://otherlab.com/projects [2] "[...] we're the only game in town." 21:00 onwards https://youtu.be/gyMowPAJwqo?t=1263 https://youtu.be/gyMowPAJwqo?t=1263
- pj_mukh 11y agoBoston Dynamics' primary innovation is in the software/control design. The reason their robots are noisy is because they really haven't innovated a whole lot in the basic actuator design. That's not to say their mechanical design was easy, not by a long shot. It's super impressive stuff! Any new inventions that would make their mechanical design steer away from loud hydraulics would no doubt be amazing. However, without Boston dynamics' delightfully ground-breaking controls software design, it'll be dead in the water! For a little bit of proof, see who they are hiring! http://www.bostondynamics.com/bd_jobs.html http://www.bostondynamics.com/bd_jobs.html
- jarmitage 11y agoThanks for your reply. Is there much publicly available information about their software/control design innovations? Hmm, maybe one might expect they would be hiring more mechatronics engineers to do just that? Or maybe there's still not much point for them because as you mentioned their focus is slightly different currently.
- pj_mukh 11y agoA person with a core Mechatronics focus will probably be a great systems integrator. BD's core workforce are these PhD's in controls (usually from ECE departments). Source: Am a Mechatronics Engineer with a Controls focus. check out some of the work of BD's CEO (Marc Reibert). This (http://web.unair.ac.id/admin/file/f_7773_bigdog.pdf http://web.unair.ac.id/admin/file/f_7773_bigdog.pdf) is the summary paper on Big Dog, but they cite a bunch of the older Reibert papers on Controls designs for legs.
- jt2190 11y agoFor those who don't understand the U.S. military funding process: This is being shelved because there isn't money to continue work, not because of a fundamental problem with the technology. [1] It's more of a "We'd LOVE to give you this cool thing... Too bad we don't have any money to work on it. Oh well!" [1] The article mentions that they built a quieter version of the robot that carried less. More interesting were problems about how to maintain the things (from training mechanics to supplying replacement parts) and how to integrate them into current training. (How/when to use? Advantages? Disadvantages?) [2] For those of you interested in the U.S. Military's use of Mules in more recent times: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/02/15/riding-high http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/02/15/riding-high
- Animats 11y agoBigDog's power pack was originally a constant speed gasoline engine driving a hydraulic pump and an electrical generator. That's the noisy engine in the earlier videos. The LS3 was supposed to have a new, quieter power pack developed with a small variable-speed Diesel engine. That was subcontracted out by Boston Dynamics. This is as good as it ever got: [1] It still sounds like a dirt bike. The hydraulic system used is very controllable but not particularly efficient. There's no energy recovery and no springyness; it's brute-force hydraulics. That was reasonable for an experimental machine, but not acceptable in the production product. Atlas, the BD humanoid, has the same problem. It's too similar to BigDog, and weighs about 330 pounds. Schaft, Google's other humanoid robotics company, uses water-cooled electric motors, like Tesla. You can enormously overload electric motors for a few seconds without hurting them, and if you have cooling and temperature monitoring, that works fine. This is probably the way forward for anything smaller than a pony. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arIJm2lAfR8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arIJm2lAfR8
- grogenaut 11y agoOne big drawback not called out to electric is you have to power it to have it hold still. Hydraulic can just leave a valve closed which may or may not require power. Then again just have it "sit". This may not be the best tactically though in small group engagements as "sit" is movement and freeze is dead stop. I'll let people who know more about that debate it though.
- thinkcontext 11y agoI wonder at what price point the civilian market could support these? There must be a fair number of applications for resupply where humans (sherpas), actual animal mules or helicopters are required, ie, forestry, National Park rangers, science, recreation, etc.
- davidw 11y ago> forestry, National Park rangers In most areas where these guys operate, actual mules are probably cheaper, and can be refueled with locally available forage. Not to mention they're more suitable for that kind of environment. Perhaps more 'extreme' environments where that forage is not available would be more suitable?
- thinkcontext 11y agoNot arguing but I'm curious what the total cost of ownership of a mule is. Handlers, stabling, feed, medical care, waste, etc. And all that is on a year round basis, you can't just stick it in the garage in the off season. Not to mention a human required to accompany it to the destination.
- grogenaut 11y agoWalking the wonderland trail a few years ago I was remarking to my friend that in some of the most remote meadows at the top (7-8k feet) (https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9181125,-121.7649511,731m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9181125,-121.7649511,731m/da...) of the trail there were long stretches of very nice chat trails. He was saying what a pain it would be to bring the chat up and was trying to decide if it was ATVs or mules or whatever. I guessed helicopter. We asked a ranger at the bottom. Answer: Helicopter. "They just dangle a huge bag of chat and we cut a hole and walk it along the path letting it pour out. Those mountain meadows are easier to do than the steep stuff at the bottom"
- Gracana 11y agoI figured "chat" was gravel or something from the context, but had never heard the term before. Maybe I'm the lone idiot, but in case anyone else is confused: "Chat is a term for fragments of siliceous rock, limestone, and dolomite waste rejected in the lead-zinc milling operations that accompanied lead-zinc mining in the first half of the 20th century. [...] Although poisonous, chat can be used to improve traction on snow-covered roads; as gravel; and as construction aggregate, principally for railroad ballast, highway construction, and concrete production." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_%28mining%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_%28mining%29
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- deathhand 11y agoThese will be turned into mounted auto targeting gun platforms if they haven't been already. This is the 2nd time reading about this topic so the DOD PR team is in full spin. This might be a intelligence counter-measure to show the world 'see we dont want to use this tech!' when in reality it has been taken over into black ops world.
- hoodoof 11y agoGovernment probably gets better bang for its buck by mounting a pistol onto each of 1,000 flying drones that only cost $300 per unit. That's an army I'd be unenthused about facing.
- melted 11y agoExcept the ones made by their contractors would be $30k apiece for the same thing.
- superkuh 11y agoThey should've gone with hydrogen peroxide based monopropellant linear actuators.
- justinator 11y agoI'm having a hard time seeing why you couldn't take something like a fat bike, and put an electrical assist motor on it, and have troops use that, mostly by pushing it. If you run out of battery, it still works 100% except now you have to push all the weight (or pedal, which could also be used to charge the battery). Gotta leave in a hurry? Use the bike, or just throw it away. Slash the tires and it's pretty much useless for the enemy. Probably < $1,000 wholesale in off the shelf parts. Def. less than $40mm. Easily carry 100lbs of gear.
- sitkack 11y agohttp://www.fortmissoulamuseum.org/blackbicyclecorps.php http://www.fortmissoulamuseum.org/blackbicyclecorps.php
- rtkwe 11y agoEven a bike like that works only on a limited amount of terrain. Add the 100 ish pounds of weight they need to be able to carry in addition to a person and they get bogged down even worse. The ways you can pack them is also really limited because soldiers would need to be able to take everything off and carry it still in the even that it does get bogged down.
- justinator 11y ago> Even a bike like that works only on a limited amount of terrain. Same as this monstrosity. Except it's $39,999,000 cheaper. Bicycle infantry units have been, and are now a Thing.
- kpauburn 11y agoAs a submarine veteran, noise is bad.
- tdy721 11y agoI call B.S. A nuclear powered one would probably be pretty quiet.
- idlewords 11y agoIt would be exciting to hunt, too. Catch one and never pay your power bill again!
- jkldotio 11y agoAre Rat Things[0] really viable? "MMRTG contains a total of 10.6 pounds (4.8 kilograms) of plutonium dioxide (including Pu-238) that initially provides approximately 2,000 watts of thermal power and 110 watts of electrical power when exposed to deep space environments."[1] Even if ~110 watts per ~4.8 kilograms is good for legs in agile situations, as opposed to wheels in a slow-and-steady rover, losing one in combat means you've just given the enemy a few kilos of radioactive material. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash#Rat_Things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash#Rat_Things [1]http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/files/mep/MMRTG_FactSheet_update_10-2-13.pdf http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/files/mep/MMRTG_FactSheet_update_10...
- analog31 11y agoI wonder if the robot actually works better than a power assisted wagon or wheelbarrow, perhaps with caterpillar tracks instead of wheels.