6 ms·

“Suspicion of treason”: German attorney general investigates journalists

162 points by _stephan 11y ago

_stephan 11y ago
Currently netzpolitik.org doesn't seem to be able to cope with the traffic. The text of the page can also be read here: http://pastebin.com/kwUyafqi http://pastebin.com/kwUyafqi
- doener 11y ago
  See: http://web.archive.org/web/20150329154655/https://netzpolitik.org/2015/geheimer-geldregen-verfassungsschutz-arbeitet-an-massendatenauswertung-von-internetinhalten/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150329154655/https://netzpoliti... and https://web.archive.org/web/20150415155552/https://netzpolitik.org/2015/geheime-referatsgruppe-wir-praesentieren-die-neue-verfassungsschutz-einheit-zum-ausbau-der-internet-ueberwachung/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150415155552/https://netzpolit...
gohrt 11y ago
This story is an exception to Godwin's Law.
chipgap98 11y ago
I find it interesting that they are investigating them for treason, rather than something like espionage. I know nothing of German law, but it feels like it would be difficult to prove that they betrayed the country
- _stephan 11y ago
  See §94 of the German Criminal Code: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p0973 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg... "§94 Treason (1) Whosoever 1. communicates a state secret to a foreign power or one of its intermediaries; or 2. otherwise allows a state secret to come to the attention of an unauthorised person or to become known to the public in order to prejudice the Federal Republic of Germany or benefit a foreign power and thereby creates a danger of serious prejudice to the external security of the Federal Republic of Germany, shall be liable to imprisonment of not less than one year. (2) ..."
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- allendoerfer 11y ago
  The first thing they will do is to check whether the documents are actually that confidential. It is not like they released anything we were not quite sure about anyway. The government monitors social networks. Surprise!
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  "Revealing that we're spying on our citizens" == "betraying the country" - at least in the mind of the powers that be, both in Germany and in the US. And, in fact, it makes a certain kind of logic. Per dictionary.com, treason means acting to overthrow one's government or trying to harm or kill the sovereign, but it includes giving aid to the enemies of one's government. Revealing where the government is spying on people may in fact give aid to the enemies of the government. Now, in a free country, that's balanced by the peoples' right to not be spied on by the government. The people have a right to know that the government is crossing that line. (And, in fact, the definition of a free country might be one where the people, rather than the government, are the real sovereign.) But no, it wouldn't be espionage. Espionage would mean that they were themselves spying, which is not the case.
- Tomte 11y ago
  "Landesverrat" is the core paragraph around the espionage complex. It criminalizes (among other things) passing secret information to foreign powers. As usual when comparing different legal systems it gets muddy. I guess what you're having in mind is more like "Hochverrat" (high treason). An aside: what are the connotations of "treason" and "treachery" in English? Is treason the criminal act against your country and "treachery" more personal, betraying a friend?
  - ObviousScience 11y ago
    Your guess about the connotations is correct.
    - Tomte 11y ago
      Thanks to all of you!
  - chc 11y ago
    "Treachery" just means a deep betrayal of trust. Treason, very bad personal betrayals and things like industrial espionage could all be called treachery without much argument.
    - escape_goat 11y ago
      To expand on that, "treachery" emphasizes a connotation of moral judgement that is less explicit in "treason", namely because "treason" is always against the legitimate state (outside of hyperbole), and both the legitimacy of the state and the morality of betraying it are recognized as matters on which opinions may differ. One could be treasonous without being treacherous, or treacherous without being treasonous. An opinion regarding usage from a native speaker, here: it might for instance be considered treacherous to lure the King into a forest where he may be murdered, in return for a rich reward from a pretender to the throne; but merely supporting the pretender in hopes of a reward, even to the point of secretly betraying the King, might in other circumstances be plainly and distastefully treasonous without evoking the same connotations as treachery.
  - 11y ago
allendoerfer 11y ago
So the first substantial action of the German government to the NSA scandal is to persecute journalists. Learned, never forgotten. It is summer break without any upcoming news, so I hope this backfires really bad at them.
arca_vorago 11y ago
"Whosoever […] allows a state secret to come to the attention of an unauthorised person or to become known to the public in order to prejudice the Federal Republic of Germany or benefit a foreign power and thereby creates a danger of serious prejudice to the external security of the Federal Republic of Germany, shall be liable to imprisonment of not less than one year." Seems to me like they would have a hard time proving that the journalists let either a person or the public know about a state secret in order to... "prejudice the Federal Republic of Germany" or to "benefit a foreign power". That would mean they would have to show intent, and while I'm not familiar with these particular journalists, I think it's highly unlikely they are trying to destroy their own country, and are rather trying to perform their function as journalists in that they are informing citizens, aka the public, about potentially relevant information even if it may be considered confidential or secret in nature. The problem is that the governments of the world want to pretend like that have final say in what constitutes egregiously dangerous information and often conflate it with information that is obviously not. Germany has quite a few more restrictions on free speech as well, but I'm curious what section of law the accusations would fall under. Look, the bottom line is that across the world, freedom of speech is dangerous to the powers that be, and it is communication that enables freedom of speech. Communication in the form of technology has largely leveled the playing field faster than nation states could catch up, and the internet has for a short time become a bastion of free speech in a world were the state and corporations have taken over almost all other forms (first it was the printing press, then the telegraph, then radio, and TV). Now TPTB have awoken to the danger that is the internet as a medium of unrestricted anarchistic freedom of though, and that, my friends, is the real reason the internet will be, and is being, taken over, legislated, regulated, censored, tracked and tagged. Not because of "national security", but because of "globalized aristocratic oligarchical security posing as national security". Make no mistake, they will pass the laws they want if they don't exist, and if we fight them (like we did with SOPA/CISPA, etc) they will simply try again after learning the lessons of their defeat. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep fighting them, but the attacker, especially a well geared and learned attacker always has the advantage. A good example of this kind of legislative subterfuge, at least in the US, is the Aldrich plan and the Federal Reserve Act. According to G. Edward Griffin, Paul Warburg and his co-conspirators “added several very sound provisions to the Federal Reserve Bill. By that I mean they added some provisions which seriously restricted the ability of the Federal Reserve to create money out of nothing. Warburg's associates said, ‘Paul, what are you doing? We don't want those in there, this is our bill.’ And his response was, "Relax fellas, don't you get it? Our object is to get the bill passed. We can fix it up later." Those were his exact words. ‘We can fix it up later.’ …
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- maze-le 11y ago
  The sad thing is, no one cares. There hasnt even been a public debate about a government with 80% majority.
  - PythonicAlpha 11y ago
    Yes. Even here, when you tell the truth, you are just downvoted. That is the reason, I deleted the post. I am sorry about that, but in our society, the truth is not suffered. I should not waste my time, telling it.
powertower 11y ago
I've been exploring the state of world geopolitics for the last couple of years, and the ironic thing about all this is that the German media seems to be predominantly composed of news outlets and journalists who more or less peddle stories that are created by a foreign government - with the purpose of serving that foreign government / while betraying its own... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGqi-k213eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGqi-k213eE
- pekk 11y ago
  Everyone who reads the news has an opinion. Germany is not lacking its own voice and reach into the affairs of other countries. In particular, this kind of discourse about evil Yankees is certainly a characteristic of German politics at least since WWII, if not longer. If you want to prove that the entire German media is run by the CIA, bring data - not more empty claims - and remember to address the many, many instances of anti-Americanism.
  - binarray2000 11y ago
    http://homment.com/atlantikbruecke http://homment.com/atlantikbruecke OK, it's not the CIA... And this is not about "evil Yankees" (because, a "Yankee" is not evil). It's about journalists who actually should put all organizations they are member of, just as F1 drivers do with their sponsors, on their suits so that the news consumer can know who's interests they represent: US, Russian, Chinese...
maze-le 11y ago
I want to give you a little context here, because I assume most non-german readers will be unfamiliar with netzpolitik.org. netzpolitik.org is a professional blog about politics in the information age, financed mainly by donations. They report and comment on political and legal issues concerning computers, the internet and technology in general. netzpolitik.org has covered the 'Geheimdienstausschuss' (a parliamentary working group, formed after the Snowden leaks) extensiveley, like no other german-speaking media. They also played a critical role in the public debate around data-retention, voting-computers and many other issues in germany in recent years. I think, chances are high, that they will never be convicted. Still, this will send chilling effects on critical media, blogs and journalists. The german journalist associaation called it an attack on freedom of the press. http://www.djv.de/startseite/profil/der-djv/pressebereich-download/pressemitteilungen/detail/article/justizposse-gegen-journalisten.html http://www.djv.de/startseite/profil/der-djv/pressebereich-do...
- dvdkhlng 11y ago
  Some more context: The attorney general Harald Range repeatedly refused to perform in-depth investigations against US spying on german politicians and institutions (e.g. [1]), but instead he is now targeting those journalists that were critical of those US actions. [1] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/12/germany_drops_investigation_into_nsa_hacking_merkels_phone/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/12/germany_drops_invest...
doener 11y ago
Article in English: http://www.dw.com/en/german-prosecutors-investigate-internet-journalists-for-treason/a-18619254 http://www.dw.com/en/german-prosecutors-investigate-internet...
_jomo 11y ago
Netzpolitik.org are doing great work. They are live blogging from every public session of the NSAUA (NSA Investigation Committee), where video and audio recordings are prohibited, they keep track of all sorts of political event and changes regarding net politics (hence the name) such as data retention, net neutrality, the recent hack of the German parliament etc. They also send FOIA requests about these topics, report about nuisances and double standards and they publish information that was kept secret (or 'non-public' as politicians prefer to call it). A few weeks ago it was rumored that there was an ongoing investigation against the whistleblowers who leaked some of the documents. The government did not want to confirm any of this and it was not clear until today that the journalists were also part of the investigation. It's a shame to see this happening in Germany.
neulandbreach 11y ago
German news site investigated for treason, website of Attorney General hacked: http://pastebin.com/PT8yQgky http://pastebin.com/PT8yQgky

162 points by _stephan 11y ago

Currently netzpolitik.org doesn't seem to be able to cope with the traffic. The text of the page can also be read here: http://pastebin.com/kwUyafqi http://pastebin.com/kwUyafqi

doener 11y ago
See: http://web.archive.org/web/20150329154655/https://netzpolitik.org/2015/geheimer-geldregen-verfassungsschutz-arbeitet-an-massendatenauswertung-von-internetinhalten/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150329154655/https://netzpoliti... and https://web.archive.org/web/20150415155552/https://netzpolitik.org/2015/geheime-referatsgruppe-wir-praesentieren-die-neue-verfassungsschutz-einheit-zum-ausbau-der-internet-ueberwachung/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150415155552/https://netzpolit...

gohrt 11y ago

This story is an exception to Godwin's Law.

chipgap98 11y ago

I find it interesting that they are investigating them for treason, rather than something like espionage. I know nothing of German law, but it feels like it would be difficult to prove that they betrayed the country

_stephan 11y ago
See §94 of the German Criminal Code: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p0973 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg... "§94 Treason (1) Whosoever 1. communicates a state secret to a foreign power or one of its intermediaries; or 2. otherwise allows a state secret to come to the attention of an unauthorised person or to become known to the public in order to prejudice the Federal Republic of Germany or benefit a foreign power and thereby creates a danger of serious prejudice to the external security of the Federal Republic of Germany, shall be liable to imprisonment of not less than one year. (2) ..."
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
allendoerfer 11y ago
The first thing they will do is to check whether the documents are actually that confidential. It is not like they released anything we were not quite sure about anyway. The government monitors social networks. Surprise!
AnimalMuppet 11y ago
"Revealing that we're spying on our citizens" == "betraying the country" - at least in the mind of the powers that be, both in Germany and in the US. And, in fact, it makes a certain kind of logic. Per dictionary.com, treason means acting to overthrow one's government or trying to harm or kill the sovereign, but it includes giving aid to the enemies of one's government. Revealing where the government is spying on people may in fact give aid to the enemies of the government. Now, in a free country, that's balanced by the peoples' right to not be spied on by the government. The people have a right to know that the government is crossing that line. (And, in fact, the definition of a free country might be one where the people, rather than the government, are the real sovereign.) But no, it wouldn't be espionage. Espionage would mean that they were themselves spying, which is not the case.
Tomte 11y ago
"Landesverrat" is the core paragraph around the espionage complex. It criminalizes (among other things) passing secret information to foreign powers. As usual when comparing different legal systems it gets muddy. I guess what you're having in mind is more like "Hochverrat" (high treason). An aside: what are the connotations of "treason" and "treachery" in English? Is treason the criminal act against your country and "treachery" more personal, betraying a friend?
- ObviousScience 11y ago
  Your guess about the connotations is correct.
  - Tomte 11y ago
    Thanks to all of you!
- chc 11y ago
  "Treachery" just means a deep betrayal of trust. Treason, very bad personal betrayals and things like industrial espionage could all be called treachery without much argument.
  - escape_goat 11y ago
    To expand on that, "treachery" emphasizes a connotation of moral judgement that is less explicit in "treason", namely because "treason" is always against the legitimate state (outside of hyperbole), and both the legitimacy of the state and the morality of betraying it are recognized as matters on which opinions may differ. One could be treasonous without being treacherous, or treacherous without being treasonous. An opinion regarding usage from a native speaker, here: it might for instance be considered treacherous to lure the King into a forest where he may be murdered, in return for a rich reward from a pretender to the throne; but merely supporting the pretender in hopes of a reward, even to the point of secretly betraying the King, might in other circumstances be plainly and distastefully treasonous without evoking the same connotations as treachery.
- 11y ago

allendoerfer 11y ago

So the first substantial action of the German government to the NSA scandal is to persecute journalists. Learned, never forgotten. It is summer break without any upcoming news, so I hope this backfires really bad at them.

arca_vorago 11y ago

"Whosoever […] allows a state secret to come to the attention of an unauthorised person or to become known to the public in order to prejudice the Federal Republic of Germany or benefit a foreign power and thereby creates a danger of serious prejudice to the external security of the Federal Republic of Germany, shall be liable to imprisonment of not less than one year." Seems to me like they would have a hard time proving that the journalists let either a person or the public know about a state secret in order to... "prejudice the Federal Republic of Germany" or to "benefit a foreign power". That would mean they would have to show intent, and while I'm not familiar with these particular journalists, I think it's highly unlikely they are trying to destroy their own country, and are rather trying to perform their function as journalists in that they are informing citizens, aka the public, about potentially relevant information even if it may be considered confidential or secret in nature. The problem is that the governments of the world want to pretend like that have final say in what constitutes egregiously dangerous information and often conflate it with information that is obviously not. Germany has quite a few more restrictions on free speech as well, but I'm curious what section of law the accusations would fall under. Look, the bottom line is that across the world, freedom of speech is dangerous to the powers that be, and it is communication that enables freedom of speech. Communication in the form of technology has largely leveled the playing field faster than nation states could catch up, and the internet has for a short time become a bastion of free speech in a world were the state and corporations have taken over almost all other forms (first it was the printing press, then the telegraph, then radio, and TV). Now TPTB have awoken to the danger that is the internet as a medium of unrestricted anarchistic freedom of though, and that, my friends, is the real reason the internet will be, and is being, taken over, legislated, regulated, censored, tracked and tagged. Not because of "national security", but because of "globalized aristocratic oligarchical security posing as national security". Make no mistake, they will pass the laws they want if they don't exist, and if we fight them (like we did with SOPA/CISPA, etc) they will simply try again after learning the lessons of their defeat. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep fighting them, but the attacker, especially a well geared and learned attacker always has the advantage. A good example of this kind of legislative subterfuge, at least in the US, is the Aldrich plan and the Federal Reserve Act. According to G. Edward Griffin, Paul Warburg and his co-conspirators “added several very sound provisions to the Federal Reserve Bill. By that I mean they added some provisions which seriously restricted the ability of the Federal Reserve to create money out of nothing. Warburg's associates said, ‘Paul, what are you doing? We don't want those in there, this is our bill.’ And his response was, "Relax fellas, don't you get it? Our object is to get the bill passed. We can fix it up later." Those were his exact words. ‘We can fix it up later.’ …

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

maze-le 11y ago
The sad thing is, no one cares. There hasnt even been a public debate about a government with 80% majority.
- PythonicAlpha 11y ago
  Yes. Even here, when you tell the truth, you are just downvoted. That is the reason, I deleted the post. I am sorry about that, but in our society, the truth is not suffered. I should not waste my time, telling it.

powertower 11y ago

I've been exploring the state of world geopolitics for the last couple of years, and the ironic thing about all this is that the German media seems to be predominantly composed of news outlets and journalists who more or less peddle stories that are created by a foreign government - with the purpose of serving that foreign government / while betraying its own... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGqi-k213eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGqi-k213eE

pekk 11y ago
Everyone who reads the news has an opinion. Germany is not lacking its own voice and reach into the affairs of other countries. In particular, this kind of discourse about evil Yankees is certainly a characteristic of German politics at least since WWII, if not longer. If you want to prove that the entire German media is run by the CIA, bring data - not more empty claims - and remember to address the many, many instances of anti-Americanism.
- binarray2000 11y ago
  http://homment.com/atlantikbruecke http://homment.com/atlantikbruecke OK, it's not the CIA... And this is not about "evil Yankees" (because, a "Yankee" is not evil). It's about journalists who actually should put all organizations they are member of, just as F1 drivers do with their sponsors, on their suits so that the news consumer can know who's interests they represent: US, Russian, Chinese...

maze-le 11y ago

I want to give you a little context here, because I assume most non-german readers will be unfamiliar with netzpolitik.org. netzpolitik.org is a professional blog about politics in the information age, financed mainly by donations. They report and comment on political and legal issues concerning computers, the internet and technology in general. netzpolitik.org has covered the 'Geheimdienstausschuss' (a parliamentary working group, formed after the Snowden leaks) extensiveley, like no other german-speaking media. They also played a critical role in the public debate around data-retention, voting-computers and many other issues in germany in recent years. I think, chances are high, that they will never be convicted. Still, this will send chilling effects on critical media, blogs and journalists. The german journalist associaation called it an attack on freedom of the press. http://www.djv.de/startseite/profil/der-djv/pressebereich-download/pressemitteilungen/detail/article/justizposse-gegen-journalisten.html http://www.djv.de/startseite/profil/der-djv/pressebereich-do...

dvdkhlng 11y ago
Some more context: The attorney general Harald Range repeatedly refused to perform in-depth investigations against US spying on german politicians and institutions (e.g. [1]), but instead he is now targeting those journalists that were critical of those US actions. [1] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/12/germany_drops_investigation_into_nsa_hacking_merkels_phone/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/12/germany_drops_invest...

doener 11y ago

Article in English: http://www.dw.com/en/german-prosecutors-investigate-internet-journalists-for-treason/a-18619254 http://www.dw.com/en/german-prosecutors-investigate-internet...

_jomo 11y ago

Netzpolitik.org are doing great work. They are live blogging from every public session of the NSAUA (NSA Investigation Committee), where video and audio recordings are prohibited, they keep track of all sorts of political event and changes regarding net politics (hence the name) such as data retention, net neutrality, the recent hack of the German parliament etc. They also send FOIA requests about these topics, report about nuisances and double standards and they publish information that was kept secret (or 'non-public' as politicians prefer to call it). A few weeks ago it was rumored that there was an ongoing investigation against the whistleblowers who leaked some of the documents. The government did not want to confirm any of this and it was not clear until today that the journalists were also part of the investigation. It's a shame to see this happening in Germany.

neulandbreach 11y ago

German news site investigated for treason, website of Attorney General hacked: http://pastebin.com/PT8yQgky http://pastebin.com/PT8yQgky