5 ms·

Indeed, a true hero who wrecked his country and resigned.

by bbv-if 11y ago

gonvaled 11y ago
You can see it like that. You can also see it like this: he gave voice to the people, and accepted to step aside when pressured by the powers-that-be, instead of stubbornly clinching to his post. He is no politician. We need more of those.
- cxromos 11y ago
  you can't borrow, get 100 EU billions in haircuts few years ago, have monthly salaries in the administration and bureaucracy between 1.5-1.7 monthly, get 60 EU billions 5 years ago and not expect to default with 90 EU billions only in salaries in public sector. And those were only salaries expenses. Incompetent, malignant, and corrupt bureaucracy is Greek's heritage. No one will pay for that. When they borrow money in the eurozone they borrow money from middle class people who put that money into the bank. Then they call elections, and now are in recession, even though months before the elections they were on the upward line. They were already in the state that could service their own budget without borrowing and on top of that pay 3.4% interest to the creditors. The issue was that they didn't wanted to pay that 3.4%. All of this we see today is that 3.4%. And of course an insane idea that communism will rule the EU. Once more. He is an asshole, a person who calls the ordinary people who borrowed money to the Greeks for years terrorists and nazists. Good riddance.
  - wsc981 11y ago
    I can't fault the Greek government for lending what the creditors (banks from Germany and France) were willing to provide. I think the creditors made a huge mistake in their greed and thinking it was a sound investment since the credit would be backed by strong countries in the Eurozone anyway. And I also think ik was a huge mistake to include Greece in the Eurozone, since at the time the problems with the Greek economy were already well known. Now the Greeks have voted no, we finally have reached the moment we can right these wrongs. Greece should leave the Eurozone so they can achieve a better trade position. The Greek debts should be wroten off as losses to the creditors so the Greek economy can recover. And perhaps other weak countries in the Eurozone should follow suit, eventually. It's morally wrong to keep the Greek people in endless debts that they'll never be able to repay anyways.
- cxromos 11y ago
  And you can't win elections by promising not to pay back your debts and accuse everyone else of trying to destroy the democracy. New government does not mean you can erase your debt. And the fact that you won the elections by telling fairytales does not mean that someone else will pay for the fairytale. That is borderline insanity. Democracy is responsibility of the successive government for the deeds of the previous one. May that be debt or a warcrime.
  - alextgordon 11y ago
    Sovereign debt absolutely can be defaulted on, just like any other kind of debt. The risk of default is priced into it. Greece is in a situation where there is no possible way that it can ever pay back its debts. Saying that does not make you "borderline insane". Quite the opposite.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      > Greece is in a situation where there is no possible way that it can ever pay back its debts. Other countries have managed to claw themselves out of bigger holes than this. It does take a much more hardline stance with respect to payment of taxes and reduction of the size of the state apparatus, what Greece has done is in many ways a simple strategy of postponement of action until the consequences were extremely bad for all of Greece, in particular the weaker parties. I don't blame the Greeks for their 'no' vote, but it would have been a lot better if they had had their 'French revolution' a decade earlier. Right now there is no good or easy way out of the mess any more and the Greek economy is about to collapse. This is not a situation where there are winners, only losers and the biggest losers are the people partying in the Greek squares today. It will take a while before that reality sets in though.
      - vidarh 11y ago
        > Other countries have managed to claw themselves out of bigger holes than this. Do you have examples of any that have done so without extensive debt relief? I can't think of any. IMF's most optimistic numbers (which rests on wildly unrealistic assumptions) indicates it would take decades, and they've made it very clear that the debt isn't sustainable at all. When their past attempts at forecasting the Greek situation has consistently understated the problems, that ought to be pretty sobering. > Right now there is no good or easy way out of the mess any more Maybe not "good or easy", but substantially less damaging than what's been put on the table: Drastic debt cuts coupled with short term financing, coupled with reforms that aren't tied at reducing Greek government spending, or at least replaces any spending cuts with investment elsewhere (as the spending cuts have been a driver for the drastic contraction of GDP).
- return0 11y ago
  Do the "click here for free ipad" ads give voice to the people too? Because that's what he did by giving false hopes. And then you congratulate him for not taking any responsibility for what will follow. Let me remind you that his 5 months as a minister were spent doing nothing , absolutely nothing ( yeah, he hired back 50 cleaning ladies for his ministry, that takes us into negative territory.)
lectrick 11y ago
Assumes the will of a single man would have been enough to rescue an entire economy based on what looks to outsiders like an ingrained culture of laziness
crdoconnor 11y ago
So what should he have done? What's your brilliant plan?

Indeed, a true hero who wrecked his country and resigned.

by bbv-if 11y ago

Indeed, a true hero who wrecked his country and resigned.

You can see it like that. You can also see it like this: he gave voice to the people, and accepted to step aside when pressured by the powers-that-be, instead of stubbornly clinching to his post. He is no politician. We need more of those.

cxromos 11y ago
you can't borrow, get 100 EU billions in haircuts few years ago, have monthly salaries in the administration and bureaucracy between 1.5-1.7 monthly, get 60 EU billions 5 years ago and not expect to default with 90 EU billions only in salaries in public sector. And those were only salaries expenses. Incompetent, malignant, and corrupt bureaucracy is Greek's heritage. No one will pay for that. When they borrow money in the eurozone they borrow money from middle class people who put that money into the bank. Then they call elections, and now are in recession, even though months before the elections they were on the upward line. They were already in the state that could service their own budget without borrowing and on top of that pay 3.4% interest to the creditors. The issue was that they didn't wanted to pay that 3.4%. All of this we see today is that 3.4%. And of course an insane idea that communism will rule the EU. Once more. He is an asshole, a person who calls the ordinary people who borrowed money to the Greeks for years terrorists and nazists. Good riddance.
- wsc981 11y ago
  I can't fault the Greek government for lending what the creditors (banks from Germany and France) were willing to provide. I think the creditors made a huge mistake in their greed and thinking it was a sound investment since the credit would be backed by strong countries in the Eurozone anyway. And I also think ik was a huge mistake to include Greece in the Eurozone, since at the time the problems with the Greek economy were already well known. Now the Greeks have voted no, we finally have reached the moment we can right these wrongs. Greece should leave the Eurozone so they can achieve a better trade position. The Greek debts should be wroten off as losses to the creditors so the Greek economy can recover. And perhaps other weak countries in the Eurozone should follow suit, eventually. It's morally wrong to keep the Greek people in endless debts that they'll never be able to repay anyways.
cxromos 11y ago
And you can't win elections by promising not to pay back your debts and accuse everyone else of trying to destroy the democracy. New government does not mean you can erase your debt. And the fact that you won the elections by telling fairytales does not mean that someone else will pay for the fairytale. That is borderline insanity. Democracy is responsibility of the successive government for the deeds of the previous one. May that be debt or a warcrime.
- alextgordon 11y ago
  Sovereign debt absolutely can be defaulted on, just like any other kind of debt. The risk of default is priced into it. Greece is in a situation where there is no possible way that it can ever pay back its debts. Saying that does not make you "borderline insane". Quite the opposite.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > Greece is in a situation where there is no possible way that it can ever pay back its debts. Other countries have managed to claw themselves out of bigger holes than this. It does take a much more hardline stance with respect to payment of taxes and reduction of the size of the state apparatus, what Greece has done is in many ways a simple strategy of postponement of action until the consequences were extremely bad for all of Greece, in particular the weaker parties. I don't blame the Greeks for their 'no' vote, but it would have been a lot better if they had had their 'French revolution' a decade earlier. Right now there is no good or easy way out of the mess any more and the Greek economy is about to collapse. This is not a situation where there are winners, only losers and the biggest losers are the people partying in the Greek squares today. It will take a while before that reality sets in though.
    - vidarh 11y ago
      > Other countries have managed to claw themselves out of bigger holes than this. Do you have examples of any that have done so without extensive debt relief? I can't think of any. IMF's most optimistic numbers (which rests on wildly unrealistic assumptions) indicates it would take decades, and they've made it very clear that the debt isn't sustainable at all. When their past attempts at forecasting the Greek situation has consistently understated the problems, that ought to be pretty sobering. > Right now there is no good or easy way out of the mess any more Maybe not "good or easy", but substantially less damaging than what's been put on the table: Drastic debt cuts coupled with short term financing, coupled with reforms that aren't tied at reducing Greek government spending, or at least replaces any spending cuts with investment elsewhere (as the spending cuts have been a driver for the drastic contraction of GDP).
return0 11y ago
Do the "click here for free ipad" ads give voice to the people too? Because that's what he did by giving false hopes. And then you congratulate him for not taking any responsibility for what will follow. Let me remind you that his 5 months as a minister were spent doing nothing , absolutely nothing ( yeah, he hired back 50 cleaning ladies for his ministry, that takes us into negative territory.)

lectrick 11y ago

Assumes the will of a single man would have been enough to rescue an entire economy based on what looks to outsiders like an ingrained culture of laziness

crdoconnor 11y ago

So what should he have done? What's your brilliant plan?