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Here's an amazing commencement speech by David. Definitely worth a listen. https://soundcloud.com/cloudroutine/this-is-water-david-foster https://soundcloud.com

Here's an amazing commencement speech by David. Definitely worth a listen. https://soundcloud.com/cloudroutine/this-is-water-david-foster https://soundcloud.com/cloudroutine/this-is-water-david-fost...

samclemens 11y ago
I admire DFW's writing a lot but I have to say that I largely agree with this critique of that speech (from the posted article): "To me, it’s the least interesting version of himself he ever put to the page. But an unquantifiable number of online readers, millions of YouTube viewers, and thousands of bookstore shoppers disagree. Among the more dispiriting aspects of the Wallace canonization is how much it has been built out of his suffering — the way the cult has revived, for precisely the post-therapy, post-Romantic, self-help-soaked culture Wallace described and intermittently deplored, the Romantic picture of the depressive as a kind of keen-eyed saint."
swordswinger12 11y ago
Did you even read the article before posting that?
- rfrank 11y ago
  almost certainly not.
- evmar 11y ago
  My stomach sank at reading the GP comment, to have missed the exact point the article was making. (I almost wonder if it was intentional?) But then somehow it is so appropriate to DFW that an article about him becoming a caricature of a writer and bemoaning that speech in particular produced that particular comment, a sort of circular irony or something that I almost imagine he'd appreciate.
  - firstworldman 11y ago
    Actually kind of a meta-parody about the idea that no one's actually read IJ.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
Its borderline shameful you've been downvoted solely because someone at "vulture.com" thinks that speech is too "treacly" and doesn't represent whatever "real" view of DFW we're supposed to have. Yeah, he wasn't a liberal, he was a Reagan voter and didn't buy into the boomer hypocritical 60's freelove liberalism that was dying out by the 90s (and rightfully so by me). I think today's liberals and far left can't stand that. Why isn't he one of us? How can someone critical of causal sex, liberal politics, etc also have an somewhat enlightened view of how people work and how people should work all picked up from what seems popularized Eastern thought and heaps of cognitive behavioral therapy. We don't tolerate those who aren't like us it seems! As a snide note, my god, if you go against the far left on social media which is almost totally ruled by college identity politics, expect a harsh reaction. I read some really disingenuous hit pieces here and elsewhere about Chicago's recent election and statements about Rahm that were somewhat if not mostly unfair and a complete and utter obedience to Chuy, who was the epitome of an empty suit protest candidate. Pointing any of this out simply was not allowed. Chicagoans voted and kicked Chuy to the curb but if you read only social media you'd think he won in a landslide. I can see how kids today look at DFW's moderate if not sometimes conservative politics as some kind of betrayal and his pieces romanticizing middle America as "giving in to the man" or some other crap. This article really seems to resonate with that crowd who really like to over-politicize everything, lower the discourse level, and bully those who they disagree with. So, someone at vulture.com said its terrible, so now we downvote in earnest. There's a real idiocy here and appeal to authority that has always bothered me about sites like HN and reddit where opinions expressed via up and down votes are often just stemming from a fairly emotional place. "How dare you link to something the article said was crap? Enjoy your downvotes!" Its so petty and uncritical. Article: "post-therapy, post-Romantic, self-help-soaked culture Wallace described and intermittently deplored, the Romantic picture of the depressive as a kind of keen-eyed saint" This is just a bullshit statement. Wallace was a lot of things, and in the role of giving a commencement speech he played up being a mature adult laying down some wisdom for the graduating class. How this suddenly makes him some kind of self-help guru is beyond me. I also don't see how anyone could ever seee him as 'hip' or 'post-romantic'; he came off as a super nerdy goon with poor social skills in all his interviews, hell his Charlie Rose interview is just hard to watch, even for fans. His other interviews are almost painful and I've never seen him try to build some kind of guru superstar image either for himself or for him by his fans. We all knew he was a messed up weirdo and somewhat, if not very, unlikeable, overly academic, overly elitist, etc. I think the author just doesn't like DFW, which is fine, but she certainly isn't giving him a fair shake and seems to have written a fairly dull hit piece for outrage which translates often into ad impressions. Which is hilariously ironic as DFW would have satirized the hell out of treating a dead writer like this. Its just so plain-faced and mercenary faux-outrage writing, the same way anyone can write a piece about Steve Jobs being a jerk and how stupid Apple customers are. HN would see through that instantly but apparently not through this considering the upvotes and uncritical reception its gotten.

samclemens 11y ago

I admire DFW's writing a lot but I have to say that I largely agree with this critique of that speech (from the posted article): "To me, it’s the least interesting version of himself he ever put to the page. But an unquantifiable number of online readers, millions of YouTube viewers, and thousands of bookstore shoppers disagree. Among the more dispiriting aspects of the Wallace canonization is how much it has been built out of his suffering — the way the cult has revived, for precisely the post-therapy, post-Romantic, self-help-soaked culture Wallace described and intermittently deplored, the Romantic picture of the depressive as a kind of keen-eyed saint."

swordswinger12 11y ago

Did you even read the article before posting that?

rfrank 11y ago
almost certainly not.
evmar 11y ago
My stomach sank at reading the GP comment, to have missed the exact point the article was making. (I almost wonder if it was intentional?) But then somehow it is so appropriate to DFW that an article about him becoming a caricature of a writer and bemoaning that speech in particular produced that particular comment, a sort of circular irony or something that I almost imagine he'd appreciate.
- firstworldman 11y ago
  Actually kind of a meta-parody about the idea that no one's actually read IJ.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

Its borderline shameful you've been downvoted solely because someone at "vulture.com" thinks that speech is too "treacly" and doesn't represent whatever "real" view of DFW we're supposed to have. Yeah, he wasn't a liberal, he was a Reagan voter and didn't buy into the boomer hypocritical 60's freelove liberalism that was dying out by the 90s (and rightfully so by me). I think today's liberals and far left can't stand that. Why isn't he one of us? How can someone critical of causal sex, liberal politics, etc also have an somewhat enlightened view of how people work and how people should work all picked up from what seems popularized Eastern thought and heaps of cognitive behavioral therapy. We don't tolerate those who aren't like us it seems! As a snide note, my god, if you go against the far left on social media which is almost totally ruled by college identity politics, expect a harsh reaction. I read some really disingenuous hit pieces here and elsewhere about Chicago's recent election and statements about Rahm that were somewhat if not mostly unfair and a complete and utter obedience to Chuy, who was the epitome of an empty suit protest candidate. Pointing any of this out simply was not allowed. Chicagoans voted and kicked Chuy to the curb but if you read only social media you'd think he won in a landslide. I can see how kids today look at DFW's moderate if not sometimes conservative politics as some kind of betrayal and his pieces romanticizing middle America as "giving in to the man" or some other crap. This article really seems to resonate with that crowd who really like to over-politicize everything, lower the discourse level, and bully those who they disagree with. So, someone at vulture.com said its terrible, so now we downvote in earnest. There's a real idiocy here and appeal to authority that has always bothered me about sites like HN and reddit where opinions expressed via up and down votes are often just stemming from a fairly emotional place. "How dare you link to something the article said was crap? Enjoy your downvotes!" Its so petty and uncritical. Article: "post-therapy, post-Romantic, self-help-soaked culture Wallace described and intermittently deplored, the Romantic picture of the depressive as a kind of keen-eyed saint" This is just a bullshit statement. Wallace was a lot of things, and in the role of giving a commencement speech he played up being a mature adult laying down some wisdom for the graduating class. How this suddenly makes him some kind of self-help guru is beyond me. I also don't see how anyone could ever seee him as 'hip' or 'post-romantic'; he came off as a super nerdy goon with poor social skills in all his interviews, hell his Charlie Rose interview is just hard to watch, even for fans. His other interviews are almost painful and I've never seen him try to build some kind of guru superstar image either for himself or for him by his fans. We all knew he was a messed up weirdo and somewhat, if not very, unlikeable, overly academic, overly elitist, etc. I think the author just doesn't like DFW, which is fine, but she certainly isn't giving him a fair shake and seems to have written a fairly dull hit piece for outrage which translates often into ad impressions. Which is hilariously ironic as DFW would have satirized the hell out of treating a dead writer like this. Its just so plain-faced and mercenary faux-outrage writing, the same way anyone can write a piece about Steve Jobs being a jerk and how stupid Apple customers are. HN would see through that instantly but apparently not through this considering the upvotes and uncritical reception its gotten.