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Ask HN: Is it sane to ask for a non Apple PC when starting at startup?

• duncan_bayne 11y ago
  I'm working for a startup right now, using a Lenovo ThinkPad running Linux. Most developers who've worked here use Apple products running OSX. Leaving aside the virtues of Linux vs. OSX as a development environment, I'd use this as a litmus test. If your request for a Linux box is refused, run for the hills. It's as bad a sign as being forced to wear a suit and tie. Re. OSX vs. Linux: my opinion, having spent years using Windows, Linux (various flavours), OSX and a little FreeBSD: OSX is better than Windows for software development, but that's as far as it goes. It's still a locked-down proprietary imponator that you'd do well to avoid.
  • piva00 11y ago
    I have an issue with reasoning about what system you're gonna use to be productive based on ideology-based values. I've used Windows, Linux and OS X to develop, mostly of the environment I'm responsible for is Linux (and some Mac dev machines our team uses). In my opinion I'm really most productive in OS X, I don't have to be aware of weird glitches when using distro Y in hardware Z nor do I need to configure anything to work in my Macs, they just works and that's what I really want from a workstation. I don't feel locked-down, I have a lot of UNIX tools to leverage myself while having support from a very sane and invisible UI experience. Really, the time when Mavericks came and fucked up ntpd and our machines started to have weird glitches with HTTPS and other time-based authentications I got really angry. But then I remembered when I had to fiddle with Xorg or run a laptop without sound for months under CentOS or Mint or any other of the dozen of distros I've tried to use. I love to tinker with computers, that's why I chose this career, but when you get older you begin to really praise when work-stuff "just works", you let the tinkering to stuff which you want to play with. So yeah, I know there are some good arguments to use Linux vs OS X but ideology is not one I'm really fond of.
    • ekianjo 11y ago
      > So yeah, I know there are some good arguments to use Linux vs OS X but ideology is not one I'm really fond of. Yet this is exactly where ideology matters. If Apple as a corporation decides to make OSX worse than it is, later on, you will have no choice but to follow, if you stay on Mac hardware. Linux is the only option that gives you freedom to choose your tools, your distribution that fits you best, and change if needed.
      • PebblesHD 11y ago
        > Linux is the only option that gives you the freedom to... And exactly how is Apple or the use of a Macbook restricting your toolset in every way. OSX is UNIX compliant and will run damn near any tool a generix Linux distro can, with the added bonus that it wont take a thousand years to configure and maintain. Add to that the ability for enterprise to use a policy server and even domain logons with limited hassle and it forms quite a reasonable platform for development. Linux is a perfectly usable development OS, but OSX and Windows are just as capable given the same amount of configuration.
        • dman 11y ago
          I have to disagree about this. As a development environment both Windows and OSX are noticeably more broken out of the box as compared to Linux / FreeBSD. Neither comes with a package manager and you have to go through a song and dance to get a compiler / debugger / profiler toolchain setup on either platform. You cant dump out the list of installed packages from your prior machine and use it as a recipe to get your new machine setup. On a linux box, I can provision a new machine and have it behave exactly as I want in under 10 minutes. Getting nfs setup with good transfer speeds was an exercise in frustration on Yosemite (Ultimately I gave up, even on an ethernet connection I cannot coax my macbook pro to do > 2 Mbps nfs transfers). On Windows I had to buy an enterprise version for NFS share support.
          • duncan_bayne 11y ago
            While working on one contract, I sat next to two devs who spent at least a day trying to get Ruby 2.0 (back when it was new) and associated libraries compiling and running properly on OSX. I don't know how long they spent, they were still at it when I left that evening. All my Linux (Mint) setup is in a bunch of scripts that live in Git. I can have a fully configured dev machine running in under an hour, starting from a fresh OS installation.
  • cpncrunch 11y ago
    I guess it depends what kind of development you're doing. If you need to use XCode and/or test on Safari then OSX is required. You can also reliably run Windows and Linux VMs on Apple hardware, but not vice-versa. Also, Macbook Pros are incredibly well built hardware, compared to the typical Thinkpad. I'd recommend that the OP try using a Macbook Pro if he/she hasn't used them before. You might be pleasantly surprised. I think it might be better to be a little bit open-minded when considering a job, rather than rejecting them if they don't let you use linux. Ask them what their reasons are for using Apple hardware.
    • VeriPine 11y ago
      well you only get one. So you be open minded means if I don't like it I am still stuck with it.
    • ekianjo 11y ago
      > Also, Macbook Pros are incredibly well built hardware, compared to the typical Thinkpad. They are built to be monoliths that cannot be opened and tweaked with. I'm not sure how you can say it's well built hardware if one cannot interact with it at all. On a Thinkpad, I can upgrade the memory, add a SSD on top of my base hard drive, remove and replace the LCD screen, completely replace the keyboard... and of course change the battery - and everything just works. That's incredibly well built -modular- hardware, without any stop needed at your local Lenovo shop to change anything.
      • PebblesHD 11y ago
        > Cannot be opened or tweaked with Unlike a many-year-old thinkpad, Macbooks generally dont have problems requiring you to open them and fiddle. As with alot of Ultrabook style machines, everything's soldered down meaning you get a thinner, lighter product, even the new thinkpads. Granted upgradinng RAM is a bit tricky now, but 8GB base isnt too bad. EDIT: pre-empting the reply, I use both a T61 and a Macbook and they're both useful in their own ways.
        • ekianjo 11y ago
• nwatson 11y ago
  You can always use VMWare Fusion on the Mac for Linux and Windows VMs. You'll then have all major platforms covered. Get a 1TB SSD and at least 16GB RAM.
• falcolas 11y ago
  Our policy has always been "if you'll do your own IT work, use whatever you want."
  • coderzach 11y ago
    except you're paying them to do that IT work.
    • adrusi 11y ago
      But realistically, if someone wants to manage their own system, they're going to spend the time working around whatever IT solutions are in place to begin with.
• patio11 11y ago
  Many startups have a de-facto or de-jure "pick your own hardware" policy. You may be just seeing a Mac monoculture rather than a corporate policy. That's quite common in some language communities -- I used to joke back when I was doing Rails on Vista that this excluded me from talking at any Rails conferences. Worst-case scenario is they say "Oh, we only provision stock MBPs" and then you use Parallels or VMWare to boot into your favorite flavor of Linux. It is highly, HIGHLY unlikely that they'll micromanage that decision. Also: welcome to adulthood. You are hereby authorized to speak to colleagues at your workplace about issues like this without asking permission from anyone.
  • bradleyland 11y ago
    Great advice as usual, but I'd point out that the last line is the most important one. No two workplaces are the same, and opinions rarely fit neatly in to bucketed categories like "can use Linux" and "can't use Linux". There's always some subtlety that blurs the lines. The best thing to do is to talk to potential employers. Be sure to make an honest effort to understand why they have the policies that they do, and remember that you don't have an experience managing n employees, so you may not be familiar with the challenges inherent to an environment where managers are outnumbered by 10:1. Every moment you spend understanding their viewpoint will allow you to better articulate how your desire to use Linux fits in to their model.
• NathanKP 11y ago
  At the startup I work at we distribute an Ubuntu VM image powered by Vagrant (https://www.vagrantup.com/ https://www.vagrantup.com/) for developers and they can run it on any host system they want. Of course in practice we all end up running the VM on macs anyway. The key is whether you can foster a development environment which is portable across systems. That is why we develop in an Ubuntu VM, because that way everyone can run our docker container cluster consistently no matter how their host system is configured. If the startup you are working at is developing directly on host machines this may be your chance to introduce a better pattern of using repeatable, dependable vagrant environments instead of ad hoc setups. The benefits are massive, as everyone has the same configuration within the vagrant, and they can still code in their editor of choice on the host machine using shared directories inside the VM.
• KedarMhaswade 11y ago
  If you are given a choice, then isn't it easier to pick what you are most familiar with from a productivity standpoint? If your first choice is rejected, then the question comes as to what the next choice has to offer. There is no point in being obstinate about using a Mac or not using it. A lot of FOSS enthusiasts and contributors use a Mac and a great many of them don't. If, as a matter of principle, you are against a Mac or a PC and would instead insist on IBM/HP/Dell PC running Linux, assess your principles again (Remember: I don't always die for my principles, what if they are wrong?). If they still make sense to you and the company refuses to provide you with that kind of hardware, reject the offer. Can you? Ultimately what value you produce with what you have trumps what you have. No?
• kristianp 11y ago
  You could argue that using linux on your machine would improve your insight into the OS used on production machines.
  • stephenr 11y ago
    This is what virtual machines are for. There is 0 chance the setup on a developer laptop is going to come close to the setup of a production server.
    • buro9 11y ago
      Dev laptops can be bootstrapped, build from Salt/Puppet/Ansible, and made to look extremely like a production server. The difference in the metal is not a difference in the software (unless you happen to be doing something very specific to the hardware), and the difference in desktop environment basically does not matter. It's very easy to have laptops that are similar to servers... stick Debian on your server, and (X)Ubuntu LTS on your laptop.
      • stephenr 11y ago
        Well already right there you've introduced a different environment - Ubuntu is based on Debian sure, but it's not like Debian and Ubuntu package versions are ever in sync. With Virtual Machines your developers can use an environment that is almost exactly the same as production, and still use whichever desktop OS they are most productive in.
• 48snickers 11y ago
  All our developers are on macs, but not all are on OSX. Plenty use Linux. As a practical matter, sysops needs to plan on older hardware being reallocated to other users/uses in the long run. It's nice to have the flexibility to reallocate machines that can run more or less any OS when that day comes.
• kaolinite 11y ago
  They probably won't mind if you choose to work on Linux (and as others have said, if they do it might be a bad sign), but I'd think about a few things first. 1. Are they relying on any OS X software? For example, at my last job the front-end developers relied on Codekit, an app for compiling CSS, etc. Now, it could totally have been replaced with Gulp or similar - but do you want the first thing you do when you join the firm to be proposing they alter their workflow around you? 2. Whilst you work best on Linux currently, perhaps you could learn to use a Mac too? Then you have experience with both platforms. You could always use Linux in a VM as a backup too. 3. If you have issues as the only person running Linux, you'll have a harder time fixing them and people will have less time for you. I've seen this a number of times. People choosing something different to the rest of the team because they prefer it and it improves their productivity, only for it to cause trouble (rarely their fault) and them get looked down upon because of it. Overall, it probably won't matter - but it might be worth thinking about it. If there were some other people running Linux too, I'd say go for it. If you're going to be the only one, you might end up making too many waves - it's up to you if you're comfortable with that.
  • Nexxxeh 11y ago
    >You could always use Linux in a VM as a backup too. I'd have thought one would need to be doing some serious heavy lifting to really notice the impact by running your VM on fullscreen compared to bare metal. The host OS isn't /that/ bloated, is it?
  • mxxx 11y ago
    At our work we give devs a choice of whatever hardware they want. Mostly that means Apple hardware, although some people use it to boot Linux VMs. We believe that if you're given the tools you want, you're able to work at your best. But having said that, there are plenty of instances where the one dude running Ubuntu can't get some thing working and it ends up eating up a couple of days of his time (and of course would happen vice-versa if the Apple guy was the only Apple guy in the office.) So I'd totally agree with the advice re "if you're going to be the only one"... Keep in mind though, if you go for the Apple hardware you're actually free to use whatever OS you want. You might just boot it straight into your favourite linux variant, but you'll still have the option to run OSX if need be. And honestly if you setup your toolkit properly OSX is pretty great, even for Linux users.
• madengr 11y ago
  At least you work at a place that does not force Windows down your throat. My employer won't even allow Linux on the network.
  • dman 11y ago
    Whats the rationale?
    • buro9 11y ago
      Probably doesn't understand the network itself is already run by Linux machines.
• coreyyy 11y ago
  Mac's are known for being worse with Excel and Outlook vs. PC. Just say that, doubt you'll run into a problem.
  • eru 11y ago
    By PC, do you mean Windows? I'm not sure you understand the question..
• Devthrowaway80 11y ago
  Totally sane. Engineering in my company is about 50% Apple, 50% Linux (mostly Thinkpads.) Development of some things on a Mac is fine after some adjustment, some things obviously require a Mac (iOS), and other things come with varying degrees of pain. I think it's totally reasonable to ask for the tool that'll make you most productive.
• jhugg 11y ago
  View from the other side a bit. I've been the de-facto hardware purchaser for my startup as it's grown from 3 to 50 people. We used to be close to 50/50 mac/linux and would let you get whatever you want. Over the years, we've noticed people with linux spend a much larger portion of their time dealing with some issue or another than their mac comrades. If we need to swap their box, they spend more time getting it back to the way they like it. They also have more trouble with projectors and with web conferencing software (1). Finally, when something does break, we're about 5 minutes from the apple store. We're now pushing much harder for people to buy mac laptops and then offering to put a tiny i7 linux desktop on their desk if they want it. And of course we've got racks of linux servers in the closet for people to use. That said, if you really want a linux laptop or desktop. I'll buy you one. - (1) I'm sure you have no problem with projectors and your linux laptop. It seems to work most of the time, only failing when it's really important. ;-)
  • codemac 11y ago
    The startup I've been working at for the last 1.5 years has had the opposite experience, people are now flocking to linux, we're at just under 33% on linux. Also note 100% of development is using at least a virtualbox linux vm either way. I think a large part of it is that linux has finally gotten very usable on specific laptops (lenovo t series, Dell xps), and almost all of our internal tools are actually just external network endpoints that linux handles wonderfully (gmail, hipchat, github, etc). Also - recent Mac OS X updates have had serious stability problems for lots of my coworkers. Only negative? For a short period I put linux on my macbook air and that was a massive headache.
    • jhugg 11y ago
      Yeah, I don't doubt it. I can only speak from my experience.
• nadc 11y ago
  One of the most useful, and undervalued until you need it, considerations is hardware support. If they're an early stage startup, it's likely there are no appointed internal IT staff to help you out when things break. I'd imagine to most HN users troubleshooting and fixing hardware is fairly trivial but do you want to spend time doing that when you have outstanding work and a deadline? AppleCare is frictionless. I've also had OK (but not great) on site warranty support from Dell. IMO it's better to save your energy for your work rather than fixing your tools.
  • VeriPine 11y ago
    I mean I do companies honestly expect employees to use applecare themselves?
    • nadc 11y ago
      Depends on the size and stage of the startup, so your mileage may vary. I've worked in startups where it isn't economical to have IT support staff when everyone is tech literate and can self serve when things break. Anecdotally - I worked in a startup with 30 employees, half running Apple hardware and the other half Dell/Lenovo/Build your own. The latter employees always had a worse time dealing with manufacturers warranties and contractors to fix their stuff when it broke. Worth clarifying with your (future?) employer if you're planning on running hardware distinct from the rest of the company.
• nmjohn 11y ago
  Have you ever used osx for an extended period of time? I was in a similar situation to you and I caved and got a macbook when I started my job. I absolutely love it. I have my linux desktop at home that I use perhaps 15% of the time, while at first most of the time I was wanting my linux features on OSX, anymore, its the other way around. My point, is I absolutely did not give osx a fair chance before I finally switched, and I was missing out for years. So I suggest at least consider it. Having said that - it shouldn't be an issue to get the workstation that is going to make you the most productive - I guarantee you'll get pushback on the matter in a similar vein of this comment, but you should be able to get the computer you need.
  • Frondo 11y ago
    As a counterpoint, yes, I have, and I ended up selling the Mac, despite trying to get used to it for a few months of full-time use. I prefer KDE (and I don't mess with the settings, I just use the defaults), which I use with Mageia linux, and yes, it's just a matter of personal preference.
• StevePerkins 11y ago
  I'm currently working for a startup, after spending most of the past decade working for financial firms and Fortune 500 environments. Being trapped for so long in the world of "mandatory-Windows-and-you're-lucky-to-get-admin-rights-over-your-own-machine", I practically jumped at the chance to take a MacBook Pro instead. After awhile though, I have to say... "meh". Don't get me wrong, the hardware is absolutely lovely. Great battery life, eye-pleasing screen resolution, comfortable keyboard, and the first laptop touchpad I've ever seen that's just as nice to use as an external mouse. However, for me there are just as many annoying quirks in OS X as there are in Windows or Ubuntu/Mint. I dislike the single global menu bar model. I absolutely HATE HATE HATE the fact that "maximize" means something different from one moment to the next... that you have to hold down the "Shift" key and double-click the title bar to make your Chrome window maximize in the expected manner. Etc. Moreover, I've become aware that I spend 99% of my day toggling between an IDE and a web browser, both of which are nearly identical across all platforms. I can see how UNIX-y underpinnings would help someone who works more closely with the console or with UNIX-y programming languages. But for me as a Java guy, it just doesn't matter. If anything, I'm slightly less productive because I still get the keyboard shortcuts mixed up several times a day. I'm not trying to hate on my MacBook Pro, it's a great piece of hardware. It's just that knowing what I know now, I wouldn't spend my own money on one for personal use. It turns out that my frustrations over the years have had less to do with Windows itself... and more about the fact of being told to use Windows. I'm kinda over that now.
  • stephenr 11y ago
    The green button has never been a "maximise" button. For a long time it was just a "zoom" button. Now it's a zoom/full screen button.
    • StevePerkins 11y ago
      Correct, but I didn't mean to refer to the green button. I was simply talking about double-clicking the Chrome title bar. By default, this expands Chrome to the "appropriate" size for whichever website you have loaded in the current tab that moment. To get the normal maximize effect that one would expect from double-clicking a title bar in Windows or any Linux desktop environment, you have to hold down the "Shift" key while double-clicking. Actually, I'm not sure if it's Google or Apple who is responsible for this specific issue, but it's inconsistent either way. Chrome doesn't work like this on any other platform, and none of the other Mac applications I commonly use (e.g. IntelliJ, Atom, Terminal, Spotify) behave this way on OS X.
• bone_frequency 11y ago
  Speaking as a department leader myself, we all use mac computers here because we find them to be fantastic allrounders that need a minimal amount of maintenance, but if we had a newcomer with the request of a pc computer, we would have no problem with that as long as: 1. He gets the work done. 2. His choice of hardware/OS does not become a timesink. In other words, in my department you can use whatever you please if you know what are you doing and you are going to properly deliver the work. I personally have not seen any company with a mac only policy, but depending on the size or even the mood of the people in charge they might be annoyed at the fact that the newcomer does not like a seemingly perfect computer and they have to buy a new one, so I suggest a bit of caution. If you are not sure about how will they take it and it worries you, why not just dual boot whatever OS of choice in that computer, or go for a VM for now until you can figure them out?
• WorldWideWayne 11y ago
  Get used to trying new things and go for a Mac since that is what everybody is using there. You can run Linux in a VM in case you need some tool. It's more important to be able to work well and communicate with people than to be comfortable and I feel like being on the same platform is an important part of accomplishing that.
• brudgers 11y ago
  You're a soon to be recent college grad. Don't stop learning and growing. If you don't trust the judgement of people with more experience at your workplace find someplace where you do. If you do trust it then trust it and learn. Hood luck.
• ziffusion 11y ago
  Was in same shoes as yourself. Their reason was that IT wanted to deal with macs only. If you are on the command line most of the time, you won't miss Linux that much anyways. The rest you get used to pretty fast. I do like the trackpad on the mac better than anything I've used ever.
  • duncan_bayne 11y ago
    "Their reason was that IT wanted to deal with macs only." That's what I mean when I suggest fleeing. My personal experience is that companies that force developers to use any one particular OS are not the companies I enjoyed working for. It's not so much about which OS, just that having that sort of decision enforced from on high speaks volumes about the culture, & whether I'd enjoy it. YMMV though.
  • VeriPine 11y ago
    I mean you can't right click and I'm not about to two finger click.
• pan69 11y ago
  I run XUbuntu in Virtualbox on my Air as my primary desktop and I rarely touch OSX, no big deal and does it really matter? I could use some more memory though but most of the time it works just fine.