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Minor correction: H.265 is HEVC - High Efficiency Video Coding. H.265 and VP9 will (most likely) have a lot of difference when we consider hardware encoders/de

by jk 11y ago

Minor correction: H.265 is HEVC - High Efficiency Video Coding. H.265 and VP9 will (most likely) have a lot of difference when we consider hardware encoders/decoders. I guess H.265 hardware decoders will be present on all platforms in the next couple of years. There are mobile processors that have hardware H.265 decoder. H.265 encoder seems to be a bit far. I am not sure whether someone has a production ready hardware encoder. On the other hand, VP9 is not a priority for most of the companies.

TD-Linux 11y ago
I think many thought this a year ago, but it's not the case any more. All of the major SoC vendors are shipping VP9 in their newest system-on-chips. In addition, a new licensing pool for HEVC just formed, and has yet to announce their licensing model or cost [1]. This is all the more reason for companies to look for alternatives. [1] http://hevcadvance.com/ http://hevcadvance.com/
indolering 11y ago
YouTube is only going to offer UHD over VP9, meaning that 4K smart TVs and set-top-boxes will have to support VP9. Google can also use their leverage over Android to influence mobile device makers. At $0.40 a pop, it makes sense for most SoCs to support it. Netflix has said they are going to use H.265, but they could adopt the same strategy as Google. They could even force their desktop customers to install the VP9 codec, just as they did for Silverlight. The primary problem is Apple, they simply won't support it. Thankfully, AppleTV hasn't caught fire, relegating their control of the market to the iPhone. Daala will be more amenable to acceleration via generic GPUs. It probably won't match dedicated hardware but if a mobile device can decode it and the bandwidth savings are significant, the lack of licensing fees will make it a very attractive option. Hopefully Daala will be significantly better than H.265 and win over Apple and others based on the merit of their codec alone.
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  Why would anyone want more than 1080p on a phone?
  - Xorlev 11y ago
    Screens are >1080p in resolution. Do you really want all your videos upsampled?
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Why would anyone want more than 1080p on a phone? The same reason that flagship phones now tend to have screens with resolution greater than 1920x1080. 1920x1080 isn't the highest useful resolution at the size of many of today's phones.
  - criley2 11y ago
    >Why would anyone want more than 1080p on a phone? Because 1080p on a 5 - 6 inch device creates visible pixels to the naked eye, and can be improved upon with a higher quality screen. I have a 1440p 5.5" smartphone and the difference next to 720p is staggering and the difference next to 1080p is still noticeable to the untrained eye. The tests I use to demonstrate to people include well formed text display, comic-book display, and Unreal4 demo. People pick out the 1440p screen as best without much issue in every test.
    - semi-extrinsic 11y ago
      I get that > 1080p makes sense for text and vector graphics. But really, what are you realistically going to watch on your phone that's been filmed with a 4K camera and optics that match that resolution? The fact that phones are shipping with 4k video capability does not mean the quality is better than the same camera shooting 1080p, especially when you take into account the limit on bandwidth in the encoder chip, so 1080p can be recorded at a higher bitrate.
      - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
        I remember with previous size jumps, it gets to a certain point when you want to be able to decode 4k video, even if your display (or eyeballs) can't handle it, just because that's easier than transcoding the original file.
    - 11y ago
- anon1385 11y ago
  >YouTube is only going to offer UHD over VP9, meaning that 4K smart TVs and set-top-boxes will have to support VP9. Google told us VP8 was the future, and that widespread hardware support was imminent. Then in less than a couple of years they abandoned VP8. Next week millions of fairly new TVs are going to stop working with YouTube because Google decided to shut down the API: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6098135?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6098135?hl=en I'm not sure the TV industry is about to invest in supporting a technology that will probably be long deprecated by the time most of their customers will even be able to use it. Fool me once etc
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    That's baffling. Do they have any reason at all to force people onto the new API?
    - balls187 11y ago
      > Do they have any reason at all to force people onto the new API? Youtube Ad Support.
      - Dylan16807 11y ago
        The new API has the ability to enforce ads just by moving to it? TOS changes?
  - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
    By "TV industry" I assume you mean the manufacturers of TVs. Since most of them support Android TV (which requires VP9), or want 4k Youtube as a ready source of content for their 4k TVs, and are often brands that already make Android phones, or re-use chips intended for those that do, I'd guess they'd have to do more work to avoid VP9 then to use it.
- threeseed 11y ago
  Merits of their codec ? Seems a bit naive. This has nothing to do with merits and everything to do with big business politics. That said in the case the best quality codec ie. H.265 is likely to win out pretty comfortably.
- tormeh 11y ago
  Daala is way more exciting technically as well. Of course, being more exciting is not equivalent to being better, but with such a novel approach (lapped transform), Daala may just shake up the state of the art, while the rest merely refine it.
pdknsk 11y ago
> I am not sure whether someone has a production ready hardware encoder. The first was announced few days ago. http://socionext.com/en/pr/sn_pr20150403_01e.pdf http://socionext.com/en/pr/sn_pr20150403_01e.pdf

by jk 11y ago

TD-Linux 11y ago

I think many thought this a year ago, but it's not the case any more. All of the major SoC vendors are shipping VP9 in their newest system-on-chips. In addition, a new licensing pool for HEVC just formed, and has yet to announce their licensing model or cost [1]. This is all the more reason for companies to look for alternatives. [1] http://hevcadvance.com/ http://hevcadvance.com/

indolering 11y ago

YouTube is only going to offer UHD over VP9, meaning that 4K smart TVs and set-top-boxes will have to support VP9. Google can also use their leverage over Android to influence mobile device makers. At $0.40 a pop, it makes sense for most SoCs to support it. Netflix has said they are going to use H.265, but they could adopt the same strategy as Google. They could even force their desktop customers to install the VP9 codec, just as they did for Silverlight. The primary problem is Apple, they simply won't support it. Thankfully, AppleTV hasn't caught fire, relegating their control of the market to the iPhone. Daala will be more amenable to acceleration via generic GPUs. It probably won't match dedicated hardware but if a mobile device can decode it and the bandwidth savings are significant, the lack of licensing fees will make it a very attractive option. Hopefully Daala will be significantly better than H.265 and win over Apple and others based on the merit of their codec alone.

semi-extrinsic 11y ago
Why would anyone want more than 1080p on a phone?
- Xorlev 11y ago
  Screens are >1080p in resolution. Do you really want all your videos upsampled?
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Why would anyone want more than 1080p on a phone? The same reason that flagship phones now tend to have screens with resolution greater than 1920x1080. 1920x1080 isn't the highest useful resolution at the size of many of today's phones.
- criley2 11y ago
  >Why would anyone want more than 1080p on a phone? Because 1080p on a 5 - 6 inch device creates visible pixels to the naked eye, and can be improved upon with a higher quality screen. I have a 1440p 5.5" smartphone and the difference next to 720p is staggering and the difference next to 1080p is still noticeable to the untrained eye. The tests I use to demonstrate to people include well formed text display, comic-book display, and Unreal4 demo. People pick out the 1440p screen as best without much issue in every test.
  - semi-extrinsic 11y ago
    I get that > 1080p makes sense for text and vector graphics. But really, what are you realistically going to watch on your phone that's been filmed with a 4K camera and optics that match that resolution? The fact that phones are shipping with 4k video capability does not mean the quality is better than the same camera shooting 1080p, especially when you take into account the limit on bandwidth in the encoder chip, so 1080p can be recorded at a higher bitrate.
    - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
      I remember with previous size jumps, it gets to a certain point when you want to be able to decode 4k video, even if your display (or eyeballs) can't handle it, just because that's easier than transcoding the original file.
  - 11y ago
anon1385 11y ago
>YouTube is only going to offer UHD over VP9, meaning that 4K smart TVs and set-top-boxes will have to support VP9. Google told us VP8 was the future, and that widespread hardware support was imminent. Then in less than a couple of years they abandoned VP8. Next week millions of fairly new TVs are going to stop working with YouTube because Google decided to shut down the API: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6098135?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6098135?hl=en I'm not sure the TV industry is about to invest in supporting a technology that will probably be long deprecated by the time most of their customers will even be able to use it. Fool me once etc
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  That's baffling. Do they have any reason at all to force people onto the new API?
  - balls187 11y ago
    > Do they have any reason at all to force people onto the new API? Youtube Ad Support.
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      The new API has the ability to enforce ads just by moving to it? TOS changes?
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  By "TV industry" I assume you mean the manufacturers of TVs. Since most of them support Android TV (which requires VP9), or want 4k Youtube as a ready source of content for their 4k TVs, and are often brands that already make Android phones, or re-use chips intended for those that do, I'd guess they'd have to do more work to avoid VP9 then to use it.
threeseed 11y ago
Merits of their codec ? Seems a bit naive. This has nothing to do with merits and everything to do with big business politics. That said in the case the best quality codec ie. H.265 is likely to win out pretty comfortably.
tormeh 11y ago
Daala is way more exciting technically as well. Of course, being more exciting is not equivalent to being better, but with such a novel approach (lapped transform), Daala may just shake up the state of the art, while the rest merely refine it.

pdknsk 11y ago

> I am not sure whether someone has a production ready hardware encoder. The first was announced few days ago. http://socionext.com/en/pr/sn_pr20150403_01e.pdf http://socionext.com/en/pr/sn_pr20150403_01e.pdf