8 ms·

You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? Okay. I don't really expect any different in

You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that. Anyway, I'm well-aware of the temptation of writing point-free code. I did include the sentence "I can see the road to hell is paved with point-free style" myself, after all. I wouldn't prefer point-free style if it ends up looking indiscernible, but in this case I sort of wanted a way to express semi-declaratively "this function is the difference between these other two functions". Does the version I ended up with do that? Yes. But for all I knew there could have been a much better, more idiomatic way. But yes, that was both a quest to improve that code and a mere learning exercise. I'm satisfied with the version I ended up with, though I don't think it's perfect, either.

peteretep 12y ago
> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" > everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong > ("his")? Where would you have had the commenter go to establish your gender? You haven't attached your name to the article, but even if you had, it's a name that in many countries is male anyway. Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'?
- MBlume 12y ago
  > Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'? Yes, of course.
- JadeNB 12y ago
  > Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'? As the poster demonstrated (by using "the author" in almost all places), it is often possible to go without pronouns entirely, at the expense of some repetitiveness or awkwardness. In this case, all that would have been required would have been to change > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make his functions point-free. to > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make functions point free. or, if the possessive is really important, the awkward > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make the author's [or just "his or her"] functions point free. However, as I have said elsethread, I think that this was almost certainly inattentiveness rather than any attempt to perpetuate gender biases.
  - codygman 12y ago
    I personally would have gone with: > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make their functions point free.
    - JadeNB 12y ago
      Then your answer to peteretep's question (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9188477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9188477) "Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'?" is 'yes', which is fine. I agreed with what I took (emphasis: my interpretation, not endorsed by peteretep) to be the subtext of that question, namely that the use of 'their' in that context is undesireable, and argued that it was not the only alternative to a gendered pronoun.
- omaranto 12y ago
  The sentence in question is: "The author spends a lot of effort trying to make his functions point-free." You can simply remove the word "his".
Guthur 12y ago
"Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that." What's being implied here? that because the OP is not omnipotent that there is gender conspiracy? Broadly making assumptions about everyone within a particular field is as bad if not worse than someone using an incorrect pronoun. Just as an aside; everyone has to deal with imbeciles in this field whether it be the pointy haired boss or just gross incompetence, it's not gender specific.
- throwaway183839 12y ago
  I think it's something that's worth pointing out occasionally. Male programmers tend to assume that all other programmers are male. Even if they don't actually think that, it slips out in their language (as in this case). In this case the error is a little perplexing since the OP's name is "Lexi" which is almost never used as a male name!
  - revasm 12y ago
    Not a lie: I have never encountered the name Lexi before. I would have assumed it to be a made-up pseudonym. Or a reference to a post-modern sci-fi / futuristic book. If it's short for "Alexis," which is a claim you edited out of your comment, then I'm even more confused, as that name seems to be male preferred within the US.
    - lexi-lambda 12y ago
      This conversation got really out of hand really quickly, so I've stayed out of it, but is Alexis really male-preferred? That's an honest question; I don't know. Wolfram Alpha seems to find the opposite. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis&a=*C.Alexis-_*GivenName.dflt-&a=*DPClash.GivenNameE.Alexis-_**Alexis.UnitedStates.male-- http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis&a=*C.Alexis-_*Gi...
  - wcummings 12y ago
    This required a throwaway?
bigtunacan 12y ago
If your first focus is on the usage of "his" in the response then maybe the next language you should consider studying is English. For starters you might want to read up on gender neutral pronouns. He/She or his/hers can be used in a gender neutral manner, however traditionally the masculine form is used in English when gender neutral is intended.
- MBlume 12y ago
  Wow, that's some extraordinary condescension. They/them/their has been seeing broad adoption as a, y'know, actually gender-neutral pronoun, and it should be encouraged. I know some people prefer he/him/his but a) many people think that reeks of implicit sexism b) even ignoring a), elevating that to The One Correct English Way is ridiculous overreach
  - sgrove 12y ago
    Meh, I like 'hen'[0] a lot, wouldn't mind seeing a concerted effort to introduce it in English as well. I doubt it would go over well in the states, however. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29
    - evincarofautumn 12y ago
      Unfortunately, pronouns are a closed class[1] in English; the possibility of getting people to adopt a new one is vanishingly unlikely. Fortunately, we already have “they”, which has been used as a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular for at least half a millennium. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed...
      - sgrove 12y ago
        Interesting, hadn't heard about closed/open classes in speech. I agree that "they" serves the purpose well, but it's nice to see an explicit, consciousness-raising fix (though it's the ultimate bikeshed politically, everyone feels they're qualified to comment - even me!)
JadeNB 12y ago
> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? As you notice, the poster to whom you are replying clearly goes to a lot of effort to say "the author" repeatedly, rather than 'he' or 'she'. I think that it's fair to assume that one slip-up after such work is a result of innocent inattention rather than a perpetuation of gender biases.
- calibraxis 12y ago
  This whole ridiculous subthread is about programmers aggressively refusing to fix bugs. (Misgendering.)
theseoafs 12y ago
> But yes, that was both a quest to improve that code and a mere learning exercise. What was there to improve? It's totally sensible and readable, and you even mention that you had people on IRC tell you the function was fine as it is.
DanBC 12y ago
> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that. Wow, you got some really hostile reactions for your politely worded comment. Some of those responses belong on @shithnsays
baldfat 12y ago
Maybe the poster isn't even a primary English speaker and their language uses masculine as the default. BUT sorry that most people when they see anything aggressive from a female they get all worked up. It is a strange phenomenon when most never sees any bias in themselves because they like their mom and sister and they only dislike that woman and that other one oh and maybe the other one. It is so strange.

peteretep 12y ago

> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" > everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong > ("his")? Where would you have had the commenter go to establish your gender? You haven't attached your name to the article, but even if you had, it's a name that in many countries is male anyway. Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'?

MBlume 12y ago
> Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'? Yes, of course.
JadeNB 12y ago
> Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'? As the poster demonstrated (by using "the author" in almost all places), it is often possible to go without pronouns entirely, at the expense of some repetitiveness or awkwardness. In this case, all that would have been required would have been to change > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make his functions point-free. to > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make functions point free. or, if the possessive is really important, the awkward > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make the author's [or just "his or her"] functions point free. However, as I have said elsethread, I think that this was almost certainly inattentiveness rather than any attempt to perpetuate gender biases.
- codygman 12y ago
  I personally would have gone with: > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make their functions point free.
  - JadeNB 12y ago
    Then your answer to peteretep's question (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9188477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9188477) "Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'?" is 'yes', which is fine. I agreed with what I took (emphasis: my interpretation, not endorsed by peteretep) to be the subtext of that question, namely that the use of 'their' in that context is undesireable, and argued that it was not the only alternative to a gendered pronoun.
omaranto 12y ago
The sentence in question is: "The author spends a lot of effort trying to make his functions point-free." You can simply remove the word "his".

Guthur 12y ago

"Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that." What's being implied here? that because the OP is not omnipotent that there is gender conspiracy? Broadly making assumptions about everyone within a particular field is as bad if not worse than someone using an incorrect pronoun. Just as an aside; everyone has to deal with imbeciles in this field whether it be the pointy haired boss or just gross incompetence, it's not gender specific.

throwaway183839 12y ago
I think it's something that's worth pointing out occasionally. Male programmers tend to assume that all other programmers are male. Even if they don't actually think that, it slips out in their language (as in this case). In this case the error is a little perplexing since the OP's name is "Lexi" which is almost never used as a male name!
- revasm 12y ago
  Not a lie: I have never encountered the name Lexi before. I would have assumed it to be a made-up pseudonym. Or a reference to a post-modern sci-fi / futuristic book. If it's short for "Alexis," which is a claim you edited out of your comment, then I'm even more confused, as that name seems to be male preferred within the US.
  - lexi-lambda 12y ago
    This conversation got really out of hand really quickly, so I've stayed out of it, but is Alexis really male-preferred? That's an honest question; I don't know. Wolfram Alpha seems to find the opposite. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis&a=*C.Alexis-_*GivenName.dflt-&a=*DPClash.GivenNameE.Alexis-_**Alexis.UnitedStates.male-- http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis&a=*C.Alexis-_*Gi...
- wcummings 12y ago
  This required a throwaway?

bigtunacan 12y ago

If your first focus is on the usage of "his" in the response then maybe the next language you should consider studying is English. For starters you might want to read up on gender neutral pronouns. He/She or his/hers can be used in a gender neutral manner, however traditionally the masculine form is used in English when gender neutral is intended.

MBlume 12y ago
Wow, that's some extraordinary condescension. They/them/their has been seeing broad adoption as a, y'know, actually gender-neutral pronoun, and it should be encouraged. I know some people prefer he/him/his but a) many people think that reeks of implicit sexism b) even ignoring a), elevating that to The One Correct English Way is ridiculous overreach
- sgrove 12y ago
  Meh, I like 'hen'[0] a lot, wouldn't mind seeing a concerted effort to introduce it in English as well. I doubt it would go over well in the states, however. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29
  - evincarofautumn 12y ago
    Unfortunately, pronouns are a closed class[1] in English; the possibility of getting people to adopt a new one is vanishingly unlikely. Fortunately, we already have “they”, which has been used as a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular for at least half a millennium. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed...
    - sgrove 12y ago
      Interesting, hadn't heard about closed/open classes in speech. I agree that "they" serves the purpose well, but it's nice to see an explicit, consciousness-raising fix (though it's the ultimate bikeshed politically, everyone feels they're qualified to comment - even me!)

JadeNB 12y ago

> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? As you notice, the poster to whom you are replying clearly goes to a lot of effort to say "the author" repeatedly, rather than 'he' or 'she'. I think that it's fair to assume that one slip-up after such work is a result of innocent inattention rather than a perpetuation of gender biases.

calibraxis 12y ago
This whole ridiculous subthread is about programmers aggressively refusing to fix bugs. (Misgendering.)

theseoafs 12y ago

> But yes, that was both a quest to improve that code and a mere learning exercise. What was there to improve? It's totally sensible and readable, and you even mention that you had people on IRC tell you the function was fine as it is.

DanBC 12y ago

> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that. Wow, you got some really hostile reactions for your politely worded comment. Some of those responses belong on @shithnsays

baldfat 12y ago

Maybe the poster isn't even a primary English speaker and their language uses masculine as the default. BUT sorry that most people when they see anything aggressive from a female they get all worked up. It is a strange phenomenon when most never sees any bias in themselves because they like their mom and sister and they only dislike that woman and that other one oh and maybe the other one. It is so strange.