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The world's simplest reasons why you might pay something using bitcoins is simply when this is the only way, or cheapest way, or safest way to make a transactio

by venaoy 12y ago

The world's simplest reasons why you might pay something using bitcoins is simply when this is the only way, or cheapest way, or safest way to make a transaction. Example #1: some merchants are hit really hard with fraud, such as intangible goods paid by international credit card transactions. So hard that they decided to stop selling internationally. These merchants discover that Bitcoin re-enables them to sell internationally because Bitcoin completely solves the fraud problem for them (since transactions are irreversible). In that case, as an international customer of such a merchant, paying in Bitcoin is your only option. Example #2: some merchants offer discounts when paying in Bitcoin (because they don't incur credit card fees). So it is in your interest to pay in Bitcoin: you don't have to pay the fees from exchanging coins for fiat, and you don't have to pay the indirect credit card fees that the merchant would make you cover (via the absence of a discount). Example #3: as Bicoin's adoption grows, more and more people end up having bitcoins in their hands, like your nephew giving you $50 worth of coins for Christmas. What's the easiest for you to use them? Setting up an account at an exchange (and incurring the associated hassles and fees when selling), or just spending them directly? Of course in this case you would want to spend them directly. Example #4: say you are travelling out of town and paying for a meal in a restaurant that you suspect might be skimming credit cards... do you pay using a credit card or bitcoins? Using Bitcoin here would be much safer. It has all the advantages of credit cards (and more) without the inconvenience and danger of handling cash (losing it, getting robbed, no ability to "back up" cash, etc). Hardware bitcoin wallets have especially an insane opportunity to innovate in this space (wrt. security and ease of use).

StavrosK 12y ago
It took me no less than one hour to pay for a flight the other day, because of various cc-related problems, not the least of which being the train wreck that is Verified by Visa. I so, so wished for a Bitcoin option...
- pepr 12y ago
  This. I tried buying a pair of flight tickets from a German airline Condor with a US credit card. What a hassle, in the end I had to call the bank, get redirected and verified 4 times (because they don't pass the verification along when they redirect your call) and I was finally able to pay for the damn tickets when they "pre-authorized" the transaction.
- eof 12y ago
  I have bought several flights through cheapair.com using bitcoin
- rglover 12y ago
  Yep! Booked an international flight last summer and had a hell of a time paying with a credit card. It seems like BTC will really shine on these non-domestic payments.
- scrollaway 12y ago
  I spent the past three days trying to buy a conference ticket. My card wouldn't get accepted, my bank was being incompetent and unhelpful, claiming they weren't seeing any charges pop up. I didn't even think of it until your post, yet I was still involved in this not five hours ago. When you look back, it's surprising the amount of artificial shit we have to sift through with CCs.
Perseids 12y ago
Extending example #1: Buyer anonymity enables customers to circumvent pesky geolocation restrictions on digital goods. As a personal example I've finally found an online shop that sells audiobooks without DRM, only to realize later that most of their catalog is exclusively available in the US. With bitcoin I could have just used a proxy and be done with it.
emodendroket 12y ago
Unless I'm buying from my own family or something I'm not forfeiting the right to reverse a transaction if I do not get the goods I paid for just to earn a small discount.
bduerst 12y ago
Hmmm, some of these hypotheticals are wishful thinking. For example 1, it's a double edged sword. As a seller, no international chargebacks sounds like a wet dream! As a buyer, why would I use bitcoin internationally when I can't reverse my transaction if they don't deliver? Example 2 seems legit for now. If and when bitcoin becomes more mainstream, you'll see an increased transactional cost from overhead and risk mitigation, so the transactional savings will probably not always be there. Since we don't gift each other bitcoins, Example 3 isn't a problem. Example 4 is laughable because in the last week, four Bitcoin exchanges were hacked (or robbed by the owners - still TBD) and people who had their coins in those exchanges lost it all. Skimming CC numbers is for sure an issue for credit cards, but as someone who has had their credit card skimmed, my issuer locked my account within 2 hours of fraudulent activity, called me, and eventually gave me my money back. How many Mt. Gox users got their money back?
- venaoy 12y ago
  > As a buyer, why would I use bitcoin internationally when I can't reverse my transaction if they don't deliver? Sometimes reversibility just doesn't matter. The merchant might be 100% trustworthy (like Amazon). Or as another example I once rented a VPS for a month from Russia. I paid in bitcoins because it was $3 or $4 so I simply didn't care if the VPS provider didn't deliver (submitting a chargeback request for such a low amount is not worth my time), but at the same time I didn't fully trust the merchant with my credit card info (how securely do they protect/encrypt it? could they be hacked? etc). > Since we don't gift each other bitcoins, Example 3 isn't a problem. You completely avoided the main point of my example #3. And that's very stupid for you to say this. I gave some to my family, I could say this proves you wrong. Even Coinbase set up a page to give bitcoins last Christmas because it's common for enthusiasts to give some to friends & family: http://blog.coinbase.com/post/105032873402/give-the-gift-of-bitcoin-this-holiday-season http://blog.coinbase.com/post/105032873402/give-the-gift-of-... > Example 4 is laughable because in the last week, four Bitcoin exchanges were hacked (or robbed by the owners - still TBD) and people who had their coins in those exchanges lost it all. This is completely irrelevant to example #4. My point was that a Bitcoin transaction cryptographically authorizes only the transfer of a specific amount to a specific address, and nothing else. In contrast a CC transaction lets a fraudulent merchant place any charge for any amount at any time. This is a substantial undeniable security advantage that Bitcoin has over credit cards. > Skimming CC numbers is for sure an issue for credit cards, but as someone who has had their credit card skimmed, my issuer locked my account within 2 hours of fraudulent activity, called me, and eventually gave me my money back. You were lucky. But your cute story doesn't mean credit card fraud is a solved problem. In many cases the customer has NO RECOURSE for fraud. For example you cannot chargeback a transaction made more than 60 days ago. Some fraudulent merchants pretend to act legitimately but stall shipping (eg. claim delays, issues, etc) for 60 days specifically to exploit this fact and exploit the fact customers don't know about this condition. Or if your PIN code is stolen and a fraudulent transaction is made with the PIN code, you will typically be held liable (check your credit card issuer's fine print, for example: http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_credit_agreement.pdf http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_...) > How many Mt. Gox users got their money back? Give your money to a fraudster and he will run away with it, no matter if its bitcoins or dollars. How much money was permanently lost to the Bernard Madoff ponzi scheme?

by venaoy 12y ago

StavrosK 12y ago

It took me no less than one hour to pay for a flight the other day, because of various cc-related problems, not the least of which being the train wreck that is Verified by Visa. I so, so wished for a Bitcoin option...

pepr 12y ago
This. I tried buying a pair of flight tickets from a German airline Condor with a US credit card. What a hassle, in the end I had to call the bank, get redirected and verified 4 times (because they don't pass the verification along when they redirect your call) and I was finally able to pay for the damn tickets when they "pre-authorized" the transaction.
eof 12y ago
I have bought several flights through cheapair.com using bitcoin
rglover 12y ago
Yep! Booked an international flight last summer and had a hell of a time paying with a credit card. It seems like BTC will really shine on these non-domestic payments.
scrollaway 12y ago
I spent the past three days trying to buy a conference ticket. My card wouldn't get accepted, my bank was being incompetent and unhelpful, claiming they weren't seeing any charges pop up. I didn't even think of it until your post, yet I was still involved in this not five hours ago. When you look back, it's surprising the amount of artificial shit we have to sift through with CCs.

Perseids 12y ago

Extending example #1: Buyer anonymity enables customers to circumvent pesky geolocation restrictions on digital goods. As a personal example I've finally found an online shop that sells audiobooks without DRM, only to realize later that most of their catalog is exclusively available in the US. With bitcoin I could have just used a proxy and be done with it.

emodendroket 12y ago

Unless I'm buying from my own family or something I'm not forfeiting the right to reverse a transaction if I do not get the goods I paid for just to earn a small discount.

bduerst 12y ago

Hmmm, some of these hypotheticals are wishful thinking. For example 1, it's a double edged sword. As a seller, no international chargebacks sounds like a wet dream! As a buyer, why would I use bitcoin internationally when I can't reverse my transaction if they don't deliver? Example 2 seems legit for now. If and when bitcoin becomes more mainstream, you'll see an increased transactional cost from overhead and risk mitigation, so the transactional savings will probably not always be there. Since we don't gift each other bitcoins, Example 3 isn't a problem. Example 4 is laughable because in the last week, four Bitcoin exchanges were hacked (or robbed by the owners - still TBD) and people who had their coins in those exchanges lost it all. Skimming CC numbers is for sure an issue for credit cards, but as someone who has had their credit card skimmed, my issuer locked my account within 2 hours of fraudulent activity, called me, and eventually gave me my money back. How many Mt. Gox users got their money back?

venaoy 12y ago
> As a buyer, why would I use bitcoin internationally when I can't reverse my transaction if they don't deliver? Sometimes reversibility just doesn't matter. The merchant might be 100% trustworthy (like Amazon). Or as another example I once rented a VPS for a month from Russia. I paid in bitcoins because it was $3 or $4 so I simply didn't care if the VPS provider didn't deliver (submitting a chargeback request for such a low amount is not worth my time), but at the same time I didn't fully trust the merchant with my credit card info (how securely do they protect/encrypt it? could they be hacked? etc). > Since we don't gift each other bitcoins, Example 3 isn't a problem. You completely avoided the main point of my example #3. And that's very stupid for you to say this. I gave some to my family, I could say this proves you wrong. Even Coinbase set up a page to give bitcoins last Christmas because it's common for enthusiasts to give some to friends & family: http://blog.coinbase.com/post/105032873402/give-the-gift-of-bitcoin-this-holiday-season http://blog.coinbase.com/post/105032873402/give-the-gift-of-... > Example 4 is laughable because in the last week, four Bitcoin exchanges were hacked (or robbed by the owners - still TBD) and people who had their coins in those exchanges lost it all. This is completely irrelevant to example #4. My point was that a Bitcoin transaction cryptographically authorizes only the transfer of a specific amount to a specific address, and nothing else. In contrast a CC transaction lets a fraudulent merchant place any charge for any amount at any time. This is a substantial undeniable security advantage that Bitcoin has over credit cards. > Skimming CC numbers is for sure an issue for credit cards, but as someone who has had their credit card skimmed, my issuer locked my account within 2 hours of fraudulent activity, called me, and eventually gave me my money back. You were lucky. But your cute story doesn't mean credit card fraud is a solved problem. In many cases the customer has NO RECOURSE for fraud. For example you cannot chargeback a transaction made more than 60 days ago. Some fraudulent merchants pretend to act legitimately but stall shipping (eg. claim delays, issues, etc) for 60 days specifically to exploit this fact and exploit the fact customers don't know about this condition. Or if your PIN code is stolen and a fraudulent transaction is made with the PIN code, you will typically be held liable (check your credit card issuer's fine print, for example: http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_credit_agreement.pdf http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_...) > How many Mt. Gox users got their money back? Give your money to a fraudster and he will run away with it, no matter if its bitcoins or dollars. How much money was permanently lost to the Bernard Madoff ponzi scheme?